MA-centric NFA FAQ

Squished said:
That would mean you need to get the engraving done prior to the stamp coming back. Highly not recommended. What happens if your for gets rejected, etc?
Click to expand...

If it gets rejected you just end up with unnecessary engraving on your receiver [wink].

Also you can cancel a Form1 after it's approved provided you never built the gun and they'll refund your $200.

I'm having my IGF MP5 built as a rifle but i'm having them engrave my info on it when they build it so I don't have to when I SBR it. If I decide not to SBR it then it has some engraving on the top ... doesn't bother me.

BTW congrats on your tax stamp finally coming in. 4 months is a long time to wait huh? [smile]
 
4 months is quite the wait! But I'm wasting no time, I just dropped all the parts off at the gunsmith to be assembled! He said there were only a couple small projects ahead of mine, so I should have it back soon!
 
AOW Question

AOW question:

I cut this from AOW section on the first page:

Pistols with a forward vertical grip: This is your ticket to a "post-post ban" pistol. The ONLY prevision of the AWB that can be bypassed by NFA registering a receiver is the "assault pistol" part. For example, if you take a virgin AR-15 receiver, and register it as an AOW, you can build it into essentially a legal "post-post-ban" pistol. You would need to make sure there is no easy way to put a stock on it, and it would need a forward vertical grip.
Click to expand...

OK, I get that there can be no easy way to attach a butt stock to an AOW. I also understand that if I'm building on a virgin post ban AR lower I can't add evil features such as flash suppressors and bayonet lugs.

The question is; is the vertical forward grip a requirement for an AOW configuration or can a short barrel upper be used with no vertical forward grip.

Thanks for all the great info!
 
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I don't understand your question, in that you seem to ask the question answered by what you quoted...

An "AR pistol like" type AOW needs a forward grip to be an AOW...actually any* "pistol" with a forward grip is an AOW.

*there are anomilies to all "rules", ATF has in the past exempted some pistols with forward grips as not being AOW's
 
I think I figured it out.

Basically, if I build this (sans the evil features), because it has no forward vertical grip, it is defined as pistol, not an AOW. A pistol like this is a no no in MA unless it's a pre-ban pistol.

arpistol1.jpg



If I build one of these (sans the evil features), it's an AOW because of the vertical fore grip. OK in MA as long as it is properly built and registered as an AOW.

nfa-aow-02.jpg
 
Here's another AOW question...

Next two AOW questions:

1.It seems to me that a collapsible vertical fore grip, by definition, is still a fore grip. Therefore, attaching a collapsible vertical fore grip to an AR with no butt stock and a barrel less than 16 inches would be considered an AOW and not a pistol….. correct?

2. If the vertical fore grip is removed, becomes detached or otherwise breaks off of an AOW then the owner is then (in theory) in illegal possession of an improperly registered pistol. If one was to legally build and register an AOW, does the vertical fore grip need to be permanently attached to the weapon or would a rail type mount be sufficient as long as the owner never removed the fore grip from the weapon?

Thanks!
 
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I would like to gain clarity on the need to engrave an SBR. I believe, from reading the instructions on the ATF Form 1, that you would only need to engrave your information if you are using a receiver that was not already considered a firearm (i.e. using parts to build a rifle). Here is the blurb from the form:

Serial Numbers and other Markings. If an existing firearm is being modified into an NFA firearm, enter the existing serial number into item 4g and the name and address of the original manufacturer into item 4a. Do not alter or modify the Existing Serial Number (bold added by ATF on form). If the NFA firearm is being made from parts, your name and address are to be entered into 4a and a serial number you create is to be entered into 4g.

Therefore, as I SBR my Uzi and HK94, there should be no need to have either engraved.

I believe the regs referenced in the OP refer only to licensed dealers or importers (or again if I were building the SBR from scratch):

See 27 CFR 178.92 for

(a)(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed
importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or
imported as follows:
(i) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual
serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must
not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For
firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the
engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must
be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than
\1/16\ inch; and

If anyone disagrees, please let me know.

Thanks,

Chris
 
You if you make an SBR "on" a Form 1 you will need to engrave your info on it as you are the maker. They ussually also stamp this reminder on the FORM 1 when they approve it.

You use the exisiting serial number, not a new one you make up, and they don't want you changeing the existing serial number, that is what the bold text you reference means.

ranger4-7 said:
I would like to gain clarity on the need to engrave an SBR. I believe, from reading the instructions on the ATF Form 1, that you would only need to engrave your information if you are using a receiver that was not already considered a firearm (i.e. using parts to build a rifle). Here is the blurb from the form:

Serial Numbers and other Markings. If an existing firearm is being modified into an NFA firearm, enter the existing serial number into item 4g and the name and address of the original manufacturer into item 4a. Do not alter or modify the Existing Serial Number (bold added by ATF on form). If the NFA firearm is being made from parts, your name and address are to be entered into 4a and a serial number you create is to be entered into 4g.

Therefore, as I SBR my Uzi and HK94, there should be no need to have either engraved.

I believe the regs referenced in the OP refer only to licensed dealers or importers (or again if I were building the SBR from scratch):

See 27 CFR 178.92 for

(a)(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed
importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or
imported as follows:
(i) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual
serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must
not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For
firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the
engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must
be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than
\1/16\ inch; and

If anyone disagrees, please let me know.

Thanks,

Chris
Click to expand...
 
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ranger4-7 said:
If anyone disagrees, please let me know.

Thanks,

Chris
Click to expand...

I disagree... As someone who has an approved Form 1, you are a "maker".

27 CFR 479.102

(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:

(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and

(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:

(i) The model, if such designation has been made;

(ii) The caliber or gauge;

(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;

(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and

(v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.

(b) The depth of all markings required by this section will be measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1) of this section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases).

(c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part.

(d) In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize other means of identifying that weapon upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon would be dangerous or impracticable.

(e) A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section.

(f)(1) Any part defined as a machine gun, muffler, or silencer for the purposes of this part that is not a component part of a complete firearm at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section.

(2) The Director may authorize other means of identification of parts defined as machine guns other than frames or receivers and parts defined as mufflers or silencers upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part.
Click to expand...

The ATF NFA Handbook has a whole chapter on non-licensees making and registering NFA items... http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/chapter6.pdf

--EasyD
 
EasyD said:
I disagree... As someone who has an approved Form 1, you are a "maker".

27 CFR 479.102



The ATF NFA Handbook has a whole chapter on non-licensees making and registering NFA items... http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/chapter6.pdf

--EasyD
Click to expand...

I agree that as a submitter of a form 1, that I would be a Maker. Your original reference linked to regs that apply to Licensed Manufacturers. Those are not the same.

In the link you reference above, here's what the ATF handbook states:

"6.2.1 Description of firearm. If an existing firearm or firearm receiver is being used, the name and location of the original manufacturer of the weapon should be entered in Block 4(a). If the applicant is making a completely new firearm, the applicant’s name and location should be entered in Block 4(a). The type of firearm being made, i.e., short barrel rifle, short barrel shotgun, any other weapon, silencer or destructive device, is to be entered in Block 4(b). The caliber or gauge of the firearm is to be entered in Block 4(c). If a model designation has been assigned to the firearm, that designation is to be placed in
Block 4(d). If the weapon has no model designation, enter “none” in Block 4(d). The length of the barrel is to be entered, in inches, in Block 4(e) and the overall length of the firearm is to be entered, in inches, in Block 4(f).
All NFA firearms must be identified by a serial number and other specified markings95. If an existing firearm is being used in the making of the NFA weapon, and that firearm is serialized, the existing serial number should be used (unless it duplicates a serial number already used by the maker on Form 1) and entered in Block 4(g).
If the weapon is of new manufacture, the applicant must assign a unique serial number and enter it in Block 4(g). For example, a unique serial number could be composed of at least 4 digits preceded by the initials of the maker. NOTE: alpha characters, e.g., a name, will not be accepted as a serial number. If a name is to be used, there must be at least one numeric character in addition to the alpha characters. The serial number must be engraved or stamped on the receiver of the firearm and the caliber, model, and identification of the maker must be engraved on the barrel or frame or receiver of the weapon.96 The marking and identification requirements for a maker are the same as for a manufacturer. Refer to section 7.4 for a detailed discussion of the requirements.

Can you point out the specific text above that states you should engrave your information on an existing HK94 or Uzi that you are making into a short barreled rifle?

Thanks

Chris
 
OK, well #1, here is a pic of an approved form 1, should answer all your questions alone:

f1.jpg


But since you want text, read your own ATF quote...
ranger4-7 said:
...The marking and identification requirements for a maker are the same as for a manufacturer. Refer to section 7.4 for a detailed discussion of the requirements...
Click to expand...
For this discussion you can "ignore" the bulk of the text you quoted, because it is telling you how to fill out a form.
 
ok i got a question about the AWB pertaining to an SBR in MA...since MA describes "semi-automatic" and then seperatly describes "rifle" as equal or greater then 16" in length, does that mean an SBR in MA does not have to comply with the MA AWB since its not applicable to that "rifle" description?

so doesnt the MA decription of rifle vito the federal decription? which would allow me to have a folding stock on my post-ban SBR?

does any one know the real answer to this? it seems clear to me that a SBR (pre or post ban build) is not a "rifle" in MA law terminology .

i was under the impression that state and local firearm laws overturn federal laws.
 
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Franco said:
ok i got a question about the AWB pertaining to an SBR in MA...since MA describes "semi-automatic" and then seperatly describes "rifle" as equal or greater then 16" in length, does that mean an SBR in MA does not have to comply with the MA AWB since its not applicable to that "rifle" description?

so doesnt the MA decription of rifle vito the federal decription? which would allow me to have a folding stock on my post-ban SBR?

does any one know the real answer to this? it seems clear to me that a SBR (pre or post ban build) is not a "rifle" in MA law terminology .

i was under the impression that state and local firearm laws overturn federal laws.
Click to expand...
#1 this probably should have been its own thread not part of the FAQ, but anyway...
There is no clear cut answer to your question, since Mass. doesn't have a "tech branch" the only option to find the answer would be for someone to step up and be the test case. So no I can't point to a specifc case and say definatively Yes or No, however...

Most in the world of NFA "play it safe" and beleive that a "post ban" SBR in Mass has to conform to the Mass AW Ban, (that was infact the case under the federal ban from 94-04).

Though others do point out a descrepancy in definitions with regard to Mass Law, now that the fed ban has expired. But quite honestly if that were the case every gunshop would be selling SBR's rather than neutered rifles...
 
I am wondering if anybody has heard this before.

I have been looking into the possibility of getting licensed for Class 3, and what it would take to setup an NFA trust - if this was in fact the best option for me.

While doing this I ran across the the website "www.guntrustlawyer.com " and sent a request for into into them.

I got back the following email response today:

Thank you for contacting us regarding a Firearms Trust. We do have an attorney in MA but under a recent Attorney Generals advisory the ATF is not approving trusts for your state. If you want to keep items in another state we would be happy to get the process started once you contact us.
Click to expand...

So is MA currently squashing the ownership of full auto firearms - or are they just squashing the creation of trusts for some reason? Or is this just BS?
 
calsdad said:
I am wondering if anybody has heard this before.

I have been looking into the possibility of getting licensed for Class 3, and what it would take to setup an NFA trust - if this was in fact the best option for me.

While doing this I ran across the the website "www.guntrustlawyer.com " and sent a request for into into them.

I got back the following email response today:



So is MA currently squashing the ownership of full auto firearms - or are they just squashing the creation of trusts for some reason? Or is this just BS?
Click to expand...

See this NES post
 
calsdad said:
I am wondering if anybody has heard this before.

I have been looking into the possibility of getting licensed for Class 3, and what it would take to setup an NFA trust - if this was in fact the best option for me.

While doing this I ran across the the website "www.guntrustlawyer.com " and sent a request for into into them.

I got back the following email response today:



So is MA currently squashing the ownership of full auto firearms - or are they just squashing the creation of trusts for some reason? Or is this just BS?
Click to expand...


There is another thread here discussing this, that I can't find at the moment. (Oh wait, KMM696 graciously posted it!) Apparently BATFE is currently not approving trusts for NFA transfers at the moment,
apparently due to some bloviation from some hack in MA government. It's just obstructionist crap, IMHO. None of the actual laws have changed. My guess is that eventually the smoke will
clear.

Currently individual transfers are still valid, and corps may still be do-able, too. If you are transferring an MG right now the safest. least BS way in MA is a CLEO signoff.

-Mike
 
I hope this is an appropriate first post

I found my way to this forum in my search for a couple of answers. I read the FAQ at the top of this topic and I think I have the question narrowed down. Quoting from the FAQ

"The key words here are "alteration, modification or otherwise" and "as modified". If you are interested in buying a factory made and registered short barrel shotgun, it will not have been made by alteration, modification or otherwise. You can not file a Form 1 to make your own short barrel shotgun in MA, nor can you possess a short barreled shotgun made by an aftermarket company."

Is the Serbu modified Mossberg 500 considered "factory made" or "aftermarket?"

I presume I'd need my CLEO to sign off on it, but if I decide on a off-the-shelf Mossberg 500 pistol grip (18" barrel), do I still need the signoff?

Thanks in advance for the help.
 
There is no way for a civilian to get a Serbu Super Shorty into MA. Serbu would have to start making virgin receivers, and then assemble them into Super Shorties... But it doesn't matter anyway, cause the NFA Branch has stated they won't approve Form 4s to individuals for SBSs or shotgun AOWs in Massachusetts.

Looks like my FAQ needs some updating...

--EasyD

oldguy668 said:
I found my way to this forum in my search for a couple of answers. I read the FAQ at the top of this topic and I think I have the question narrowed down. Quoting from the FAQ

"The key words here are "alteration, modification or otherwise" and "as modified". If you are interested in buying a factory made and registered short barrel shotgun, it will not have been made by alteration, modification or otherwise. You can not file a Form 1 to make your own short barrel shotgun in MA, nor can you possess a short barreled shotgun made by an aftermarket company."

Is the Serbu modified Mossberg 500 considered "factory made" or "aftermarket?"

I presume I'd need my CLEO to sign off on it, but if I decide on a off-the-shelf Mossberg 500 pistol grip (18" barrel), do I still need the signoff?

Thanks in advance for the help.
Click to expand...
 
That's pretty clear. So, just for followup, something like a Mossberg 500 with the 18.5" barrel and a pistol grip is not a SBS and is okay for me to own with my Class A carry license?
 
oldguy668 said:
That's pretty clear. So, just for followup, something like a Mossberg 500 with the 18.5" barrel and a pistol grip is not a SBS and is okay for me to own with my Class A carry license?
Click to expand...

It's a title 1 firearm that can be owned by anyone with an LTC or FID. If the gun is stockless, (eg, a PGO) then you will have to be 21+ to buy it. (Federal crap pertaining to PGO shotguns.). Either configuration is NOT an NFA device. You can buy them at any gun store.

-Mike
 
securityboy said:
You sure on that? I admit I'm not "huge into" shotguns, but I'v never heard you needed to be 21 to buy a pistol gripped shotgun...
Click to expand...

Yes I am 100% sure. The reason for it is the FFL who sold the Trolley Square (Utah) mall shooter (who was under 21) a PGO shotgun got in serious trouble for it. There is some bogus administrative ruling that causes PGO shotguns to be classified differently than a shotgun with a stock on it. The whole thing is stupid, of course, given that it is completely legal for someone to convert a PGO shotgun, or that it is still legal to sell a pump shotgun with a folder on it, too.

-Mike
 

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