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MA-centric NFA FAQ

EasyD said:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2009-11.pdf

A "shotgun" has to be shoulder fired. A pistol grip only firearm that shoots 12 gauge shells isn't a "shotgun".

--EasyD
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drgrant said:
Yes I am 100% sure. The reason for it is the FFL who sold the Trolley Square (Utah) mall shooter (who was under 21) a PGO shotgun got in serious trouble for it. There is some bogus administrative ruling that causes PGO shotguns to be classified differently than a shotgun with a stock on it. The whole thing is stupid, of course, given that it is completely legal for someone to convert a PGO shotgun, or that it is still legal to sell a pump shotgun with a folder on it, too.

-Mike
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Thanks, learn something new everyday...Is it safe to say that considering that is a Nov. 09 FFL newsletter, this is a fairly "new" interpretation??? I seem to recall the the Mossberg Crusaders (sp?) being sold as regular long guns not all that long ago (but then again I've been over 21 for some time now and I don't look into shotguns to often, so maybe I just never noticed)
 
This is also along the same lines as the "stripped lower is not a rifle" problem. Those get transferred as "Other" or some crap now, and can only be sold in the buyer's state of residence. [rolleyes] Not sure about the PGO thing, but the stripped lower thing came to roost in the past year or two.

The irony of the stupid PGO shotgun thing is, a PGO shotgun is not a "shotgun" but yet a pump action shotgun with a folding stock on it that has a pistol grip is still a shotgun. [laugh]

-Mike
 
Okay, so now I have a new problem

I called two shops in the Woburn area to see if they would sell me a Mossberg Cruiser. They both had them in stock, so I asked if there was any interest in taking my Beretta Model 1934 in trade. Again, they both had interest in doing business. The second guy asked me how long I had the Beretta, and my answer was 32 years. He then said I'd need my original paperwork for him to be able to trade it. Where the heck am I going to find original paperwork from 1978? The shop where I bought it went out of business in 1980. Do I have to sell it to a New Hampshire shop? Can I sell it to a Mass resident?
 
oldguy668 said:
I called two shops in the Woburn area to see if they would sell me a Mossberg Cruiser. They both had them in stock, so I asked if there was any interest in taking my Beretta Model 1934 in trade. Again, they both had interest in doing business. The second guy asked me how long I had the Beretta, and my answer was 32 years. He then said I'd need my original paperwork for him to be able to trade it. Where the heck am I going to find original paperwork from 1978? The shop where I bought it went out of business in 1980. Do I have to sell it to a New Hampshire shop? Can I sell it to a Mass resident?
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I'm guessing it's a handgun. You could sell it FTF on an FA-10 to an MA resident no problem, as long as they have the right license. (Which for that gun, would be an LTC-B or better. ).

-Mike
 
You can request a Form 1 packet from the ATF online at http://www.atf.gov/dcof/index.htm. It includes all the forms you'll need.
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Linky doesn't work. I've found this, http://www.atf.gov/forms/federal-register/ which has the Form 1, but I would rather get the packet so I don't miss anything. And I'm having a hard time finding a link that lets you request packets. Do I need to send an e-mail/call the ATF to get the packet? Or, are they expecting everyone to download them now?

I'm just now thinking about this process...so it's new and going to be awhile before I move forward. But I'm trying to learn as much as I can before I proceed.
 
C-pher said:
Linky doesn't work. I've found this, http://www.atf.gov/forms/federal-register/ which has the Form 1, but I would rather get the packet so I don't miss anything. And I'm having a hard time finding a link that lets you request packets. Do I need to send an e-mail/call the ATF to get the packet? Or, are they expecting everyone to download them now?

I'm just now thinking about this process...so it's new and going to be awhile before I move forward. But I'm trying to learn as much as I can before I proceed.
Click to expand...

New link is: http://www.atf.gov/forms/dcof/

Form 1 is called F1 (5320.1) in the big list of forms...

--EasyD
 
C-pher said:
...the only one is about my Chief. Might start a new thread on this.
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I am in the same boat, I want to start this process but IDK if Wareham is cool or not. I got a weird vibe about civi' gun owners from the officer at the desk when I went in for the change of address form last year when I moved from Attleboro. Should have done it before I moved. [thinking]
 
edmorseiii said:
I am in the same boat, I want to start this process but IDK if Wareham is cool or not. I got a weird vibe about civi' gun owners from the officer at the desk when I went in for the change of address form last year when I moved from Attleboro. Should have done it before I moved. [thinking]
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AFAIK there's no official form to do it.... so if the dispatcher looked confused, there's a reason for it. FA-10s garner similar confusion. I think GOAL has a PDF or something you can print out to use as a COA form. I think I just printed up a letter in MS word for my GF to use for her addr. changes.

-Mike
 
EasyD said:
Does the Assault Weapons Ban still apply to SBRs?

Maybe. I'll try to present both sides of the argument.

The AWB does effect SBRs in MA argument: The MA AWB, just like the Federal one, effects "semiautomatic rifles" without any regard to barrel length and does effect SBRs. The MA AWB is at 140 MGL 121. The section of the Federal AWB that applies to rifles is 18 USC 921(a)(30)(B).



The AWB does not effect SBRs in MA argument: The problem with Massachusetts law is that it's poorly written. The MA AWB states, in part "“Assault weapon”, shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994". If you go read all of 18 USC 921(a)(30), it does define assault weapons, but does not define the term "rifle". Why does that matter? Because the MA law specifically references ONLY that part of the federal law, and not the federal definition of a "rifle". Therefore, we must use the Massachusetts definition of a rifle, from 140 MGL 121. The definition in Massachusetts law states that a rifle must have a barrel equal to or greater than 16 inches in length. Because your SBR, by definition, has a barrel less then 16 inches, it can't be a rifle under Massachusetts law, and can't be an assault weapon using the specific section of the Federal ban referred to by Massachusetts law.
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So is there any documentation regarding either one of these arguments.. Any case law or even official AG stance on this. I was at a very well regarded shop today who happen to sell SBR's. When I asked if they were on preban receivers I was happy to hear that the AWB does not apply to NFA/SBR weapons. But then I came here and found this thread and I am now confused.
 
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TOM-P said:
So is there any documentation regarding either one of these arguments.. Any case law or even official AG stance on this. I was at a very well regarded shop today who happen to sell SBR's. When I asked if they were on preban receivers I was happy to hear that the AWB does not apply to NFA/SBR weapons. But then I came here and found this thread and I am now confused.
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As far as this goes, there is as far as I know NO MA case law on this...but the whole SBR will get you around the MA AW ban is, as already mentioned above, based upon "definitional" debate...if MA was "pro gun" maybe those definition arguements would work, but I wouldn't bet my legal freedom on it...(for example you can't own perfectly "legal" SBS's [and some AOW's] because MA interprets our "sawed off shotgun" laws to cover them)...It is at best an untested "gray area"...

Keep in mind it is solely based upon poor wording of how the fed ban was adopted into MA law, and that there were not "no ban" SBR's during the federal AW ban. Again because of differneces in the MA definition of rifle and fed definition of rifle...It probably wouldn't be a big deal if this wasn't MA, but look at the interpretaions the state has taken on SBS's, and "possession" regarding MG's, "they" have taken every hint of "gray" against us...do you want to bet your $$$ and legality on "them" taking "our" side on this one???

Bottomline it really doesn't seem like a worth while risk for the minimal $$$ "savings", if you want an SBR in MA with evil features, go spend the little extra $$$ on preban host. Simple example AR SBR's spend $1K on a preban SP1, and start there...Whats a new AR cost today $800??? Is saving the $200 really worth that legal risk of playing in this "grey area"...
 
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Acme.Armament said:
You get them from the ATF's Online Form order website. http://www.atf.gov/forms/dcof/

If your PD won't do them, give Acme a call or PM me and I'll do them for you.
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Thanks for the reply. I figured that was the case, but didn't want to wait for the ATF to mail them out. My PD will do the prints, but thanks for the offer!
 
Indeed, very helpful information!

Something I didn't see: Does the MA AWB apply to SMG magazines if those magazines can be used in either an NFA SMG or a semi-auto version of the same gun?
 
Welcome to NES!

There is no exemption. The AWB applies to ALL magazines...

MGL 140-121 said:
“Large capacity feeding device”, (i) a fixed or detachable magazine, box, drum, feed strip or similar device capable of accepting, or that can be readily converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition...
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http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121

MGL 140-131M said:
No person shall sell, offer for sale, transfer or possess ... a large capacity feeding device that was not otherwise lawfully possessed on September 13, 1994.
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http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section131m
 
I don't agree with the short barrel DD part entirely. Maybe I'm mistaken but if a street sweeper came from factory with short barrel and was never "modified" as defined by the sawed off shotgun definition, wouldn't it still be legal as a short barreled shotgun and a DD.
 
uziduzit said:
I don't agree with the short barrel DD part entirely. Maybe I'm mistaken but if a street sweeper came from factory with short barrel and was never "modified" as defined by the sawed off shotgun definition, wouldn't it still be legal as a short barreled shotgun and a DD.
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A DD can never be a 'shotgun', therefore barrel length is irrelevant. There is nothing in the DD definition that restricts barrel length.
 
uziduzit said:
I don't agree with the short barrel DD part entirely. Maybe I'm mistaken but if a street sweeper came from factory with short barrel and was never "modified" as defined by the sawed off shotgun definition, wouldn't it still be legal as a short barreled shotgun and a DD.
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glide said:
A DD can never be a 'shotgun', therefore barrel length is irrelevant. There is nothing in the DD definition that restricts barrel length.
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Go here for definitions, http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/identification-of-nfa-firearms.html#street-sweeper

Street Sweeper,
Classification: Destructive Device
Distinctive Characteristics: Large revolving cylinder
Special Note: See ATF Ruling 2001-1
Rate of Transfer Tax: $200.00
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Short Barreled Shotgun,
Classification: Short Barreled Shotgun
Distinctive Characteristics: Shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
Rate of Transfer Tax: $200.00
Click to expand...
 
What I was saying is that by Massachusetts law a gun with a smooth bore that fires a shot is considered a shotgun regardless if it's registered as a DD. So if a street sweeper which is considered to be a shotgun by mass law was originally manufactured with short barrel it is a short barreled shotgun as far as mass law goes. At the same time the gun is legal under federal law as a dd
 
uziduzit said:
Maybe I'm mistaken but if a street sweeper came from factory with short barrel and was never "modified" as defined by the sawed off shotgun definition, wouldn't it still be legal as a short barreled shotgun...
Click to expand...

uziduzit said:
So if a street sweeper which is considered to be a shotgun by mass law was originally manufactured with short barrel it is a short barreled shotgun as far as mass law goes.
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No, it would be considered a "firearm" pursuant to MA law...

MGL 140-121 said:
“Firearm”, a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches or 18 inches in the case of a shotgun as originally manufactured...
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...and would be illegal because it is banned by name...

MGL 140-121 said:
“Assault weapon”, shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994, and shall include, but not be limited to, any of the weapons, or copies or duplicates of the weapons, of any caliber, known as:

>snip<

(viii) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as, or similar to, the Street Sweeper and Striker 12
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http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121
 
If a street sweeper was manufactured prior to a certain date it is also considered to be grandfathered in MA so with it being originally manufactured as a sbs and additionally being manufactured and registered prior to the ban, im pretty certain it is legal to own.
 
so heres my question. I would like to build a SBR. Id like a mk18 clone.
Town said no prob, bring us the paper.
If I want a collapsible stock, do I need to build it off a pre94 receiver? or does the SBR paperwork trump?
 
centermass181 said:
so heres my question. I would like to build a SBR. Id like a mk18 clone.
Town said no prob, bring us the paper.
If I want a collapsible stock, do I need to build it off a pre94 receiver? or does the SBR paperwork trump?
Click to expand...

It would have to be on a preban, an sbr is still a rifle and the awb still has to be abided by.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
 

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