MA Gun Grab 2024: H.4885 - Passed legislature, headed to the governor

[Amputee Marksman]

At this time it is 100% legal to buy stripped lowers and build them out and register the F out of them.
You don't need to keep them as built out lowers just get them into an able to fire configuration.
Install a cheap lower kit
Spin on a fixed stock
Attach a compliant upper
Take picture on phone with online storage with serial visible.
eFA-10

Hypothetically speaking:

Between 7/21/16 and current date let's assume that John Smith has done this
Now the bill passes with 7/20/2016 Grandfathering date with bill taking effect x days from signing
John Smith will now be a felon once the bill is active (start date on the bill)
So John Smith knowing he will be a felon sells his soon to be illegal firearm to an FFL or he sells to an out of state person or he moves his firearm out of state
So now the start date of the bill arrives and John Smith got rid of his evil firearm and would appear to be in compliance with the new law

My interpretation is that John Smith never broke the law because the "enforcement" notice was not an actual law, it was never validated or upheld in a court of law and in fact it was never used as the basis for any prosecution. However there is, might be, a real possibility this can come back to bite John Smith based on the assumption by the state the enforcement notice was actually law and the eFA10 is on file. A lot of people who were trying to be legal and follow the rules could find themselves in this situation.

 

[Mesatchornug]

I went over it before
The grandfathering of the senate bill allows the state to claim that people were given advanced notice the there was no legal method to cause a ln AR/AK platform rifle to be compliant in 2016 but denied prosecution of those that had purchased these "illegal" AW in good faith from dealers.
That is how they will argue that this is not an ex post facto law but simply a clerical clarification that makes the lawclear to all. And that argument will pass all state, district and 1st circuit courts.

However lack of any grandfathering removes the bogus argument

Hypothetically speaking:

Between 7/21/16 and current date let's assume that John Smith has done this
Now the bill passes with 7/20/2016 Grandfathering date with bill taking effect x days from signing
John Smith will now be a felon once the bill is active (start date on the bill)
So John Smith knowing he will be a felon sells his soon to be illegal firearm to an FFL or he sells to an out of state person or he moves his firearm out of state
So now the start date of the bill arrives and John Smith got rid of his evil firearm and would appear to be in compliance with the new law

My interpretation is that John Smith never broke the law because the "enforcement" notice was not an actual law, it was never validated or upheld in a court of law and in fact it was never used as the basis for any prosecution. However there is, might be, a real possibility this can come back to bite John Smith based on the assumption by the state the enforcement notice was actually law and the eFA10 is on file. A lot of people who were trying to be legal and follow the rules could find themselves in this situation.

This is the distinction that puts to question the cries of ex post facto.

If the punishable behavior is possession after the enactment date, your hypothetical individual is fine, as no crime has been committed. If it refers to having ever possessed it after (e.g.) 7/16, then he's boned and epf comes into play.

 

[Darkslide]

Also no more custom built 1911's built by FFL gunsmiths. Or frame transfered non-list 1911's.

You can buy bare frames now, then send it out for “gunsmithing” later on. Since you already own the frame, there’s no need for a transfer.

 

[pastera]

This is the distinction that puts to question the cries of ex post facto.

If the punishable behavior is possession after the enactment date, your hypothetical individual is fine, as no crime has been committed. If it refers to having ever possessed it after (e.g.) 7/16, then he's boned and epf comes into play.

Agree but that doesn't cure the taking issue for items from 7/20/16 to present.

And we need to work on an argument for the courts inevitable "it's not a taking if we allow to to voluntarily dispose of the item below fair market value in order to avoid prosecution"
It's mine, if you force me to get rid of it under threat of prosecution it's a taking even if I make a profit when selling it.

 

[not new guy]

I wonder how many staffers are reading this thread and picking up pointers. Not that it should really change our behavior, but…

 

[pastera]

Hypothetically speaking:

Between 7/21/16 and current date let's assume that John Smith has done this
Now the bill passes with 7/20/2016 Grandfathering date with bill taking effect x days from signing
John Smith will now be a felon once the bill is active (start date on the bill)
So John Smith knowing he will be a felon sells his soon to be illegal firearm to an FFL or he sells to an out of state person or he moves his firearm out of state
So now the start date of the bill arrives and John Smith got rid of his evil firearm and would appear to be in compliance with the new law

My interpretation is that John Smith never broke the law because the "enforcement" notice was not an actual law, it was never validated or upheld in a court of law and in fact it was never used as the basis for any prosecution. However there is, might be, a real possibility this can come back to bite John Smith based on the assumption by the state the enforcement notice was actually law and the eFA10 is on file. A lot of people who were trying to be legal and follow the rules could find themselves in this situation.

That's what I tried to convey earlier - the state would lose if they go after anyone for a post healy but the loss would be on appeal after the state dragged its feet as much as possible to inflict maximum financial loss as a lesson to others.

 

[pastera]

I wonder how many staffers are reading this thread and picking up pointers. Not that it should really change our behavior, but…

There were comments made in face to face conversations and very nuanced changes proposed in the senate that makes your point a certainty.

At this point the bill will be passed and taken through the courts.
They understand they have two choices.
1 - senate grandfathering with the house baseline that inflicts maximum pain but fast tracks to scotus
2 - keep the house grandfathering and back off of the house crazy more towards the senate version. This slows the judicial fight but turns tens of thousands of post ban guns into preban freedom guns - and since there needs to be at least some time for signing every one of those days let's FFLs dump hundreds of future freedom guns into the market.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Agree but that doesn't cure the taking issue for items from 7/20/16 to present.

And we need to work on an argument for the courts inevitable "it's not a taking if we allow to to voluntarily dispose of the item below fair market value in order to avoid prosecution"
It's mine, if you force me to get rid of it under threat of prosecution it's a taking even if I make a profit when selling it.

Their argument will (I expect) be the same as during prohibition - "lol, it's not a taking if your 'possession' is contraband."

(Also, sorry, that post wasn't meant to quote you, but I'm an idiot who was just catching up on the thread.)

 

[pastera]

Their argument will (I expect) be the same as during prohibition - "lol, it's not a taking if your 'possession' is contraband."

(Also, sorry, that post wasn't meant to quote you, but I'm an idiot who was just catching up on the thread.)

Concur on the contraband excuse
That's why they will convert all pre Healey's to freedom guns since they know that the banned features are meaningless.
if they stand firm that there is no way to cure a copy&duplicate by deleting features and ban everything back to 1994 the SCOTUS will strike down everything AW everywhere extremely fast and nasty (think Caetano but with more hate and discontent)

 

[Mesatchornug]

Concur on the contraband excuse
That's why they will convert all pre Healey's to freedom guns since they know that the banned features are meaningless.
if they stand firm that there is no way to cure a copy&duplicate by deleting features and ban everything back to 1994 the SCOTUS will strike down everything AW everywhere extremely fast and nasty (think Caetano but with more hate and discontent)

 

[CrackPot]

Also no more custom built 1911's built by FFL gunsmiths. Or frame transfered non-list 1911's.

It depends on the exact final language. Under existing law and not changed by the senate version is language at the end of MGL 140 121 that excludes manufacturers from section 123 which is where the language is that causes the roster to impact dealers. So clearly in its broadest sense all 07s are exempt from the roster (not planning to test this myself). But the practical application of this and one everyone seems to be willing to follow is that as a 07 in MA, if I build a firearm (MA definition, so handgun for this discussion), I can sell/transfer it to a LTC holder without regards to the roster.

Unless they change this (which has other serious implications that make the law a problem for manufacturers in general), then you can still get your custom built 1911 from a MA 07 FFL.

 

[JDL]

You can buy bare frames now, then send it out for “gunsmithing” later on. Since you already own the frame, there’s no need for a transfer.

Yes this is true now however if this bill comes out the way it is written it will close this down. So I guess every one should buy 1911 frames now. Once this bill comes out the ability to do this will be gone.

 

[pastera]

Yes this is true now however if this bill comes out the way it is written it will close this down. So I guess every one should buy 1911 frames now. Once this bill comes out the ability to do this will be gone.

Or serialized 80% frames with become a thing.
Well as long as you don't use a cnc to finish it since this bill bans cnc mills and 3d printers (that are advertised as able to produce gun parts)

Ghost gunner needs to make an automatic dildo machining machine called the Happy Healey

 

[vcman]

Or serialized 80% frames with become a thing.
Well as long as you don't use a cnc to finish it since this bill bans cnc mills and 3d printers (that are advertised as able to produce gun parts)

Ghost gunner needs to make an automatic dildo machining machine called the Happy Healey

Can those ghost gunner cnc mill take regular famuc program ?asking 4 a friend lol.

 

[Nightshift]

Ghost gunner needs to make an automatic dildo machining machine called the Happy Healey

Moaning Maura

 

[bigbravehog]

Concur on the contraband excuse
That's why they will convert all pre Healey's to freedom guns since they know that the banned features are meaningless.
if they stand firm that there is no way to cure a copy&duplicate by deleting features and ban everything back to 1994 the SCOTUS will strike down everything AW everywhere extremely fast and nasty (think Caetano but with more hate and discontent)

I'm not so confident, and even if they did, will MA politicians care ?

 

[Broc Tuah]

I wonder how many staffers are reading this thread and picking up pointers. Not that it should really change our behavior, but…

If that was their intent, they could have created NES accounts years ago. There is nothing this thread is providing them that they can't find.

Some FFLs in the State would be happy to gove them the information.

 

[not new guy]

There is nothing this thread is providing them that they can't find.

Except knowledge/subject matter expertise and experience.

 

[voidoid]

This came in to me just before 5:30 by email:

Interesting that Day referred to looking at the summaries - not the actual bill texts - to "start chipping away" at the language.

This is problematic because the summaries are absolute BS; they do not accurately portray the content of either bill whatsoever. The summaries are complete lies and obfuscate critical language of the actual legislation. Much is left out, glossed over, incorrectly summarized, etc. I don't even think he knows what was in his own bill.

 

[pastera]

Can those ghost gunner cnc mill take regular famuc program ?asking 4 a friend lol.

I don't think so but I think there is a post for it in Fusion 360

 

[pastera]

I'm not so confident, and even if they did, will MA politicians care ?

They jumped on the holding in Bruen and Caetano
We may not believe they went as far as they should but they made an immediate effort to toe the line in both cases
Mass was already compliant with the core holding in Heller since we could have an operable handgun in the home with a license.

If SCOTUS strikes down the AWB, then any state actor trying to enforce laws contrary to the holding would be open to a pretty lucrative suite without benefit of qualified immunity.

 

[VTski4x4]

They jumped on the holding in Bruen and Caetano
We may not believe they went as far as they should but they made an immediate effort to toe the line in both cases
Mass was already compliant with the core holding in Heller since we could have an operable handgun in the home with a license.

If SCOTUS strikes down the AWB, then any state actor trying to enforce laws contrary to the holding would be open to a pretty lucrative suite without benefit of qualified immunity.

Any pol or Leo that tries to pass/enforce an AWB after/if/when SCOTUS rules it unconstitutional needs to face a lot more than a lawsuit. Guantanamo sounds good.

 

[inerlogic]

After all they’d be illegal.

it's not illegal to be illegal, my lowers won't be "illegal" they'll be "undocumented"

 

[pastera]

Any pol or Leo that tries to pass/enforce an AWB after/if/when SCOTUS rules it unconstitutional needs to face a lot more than a lawsuit. Guantanamo sounds good.

Agree but until SCOTUS clarifies its dicta and strikes clearly strikes down any and all non-historical restrictions, we live with the narrow rulings we currently have as dogs begging for scraps.

 

[DJBrad]

So, you think people will buy lots of post Healey AR lowers - AND register them???

Is that really smart to register them?

The government will then know that you have them and they will have the list for confiscation.

But if you don't register, you'll be a felon.

So, what's the plan?

Should I visit the Mill this weekend and max out my cards on lowers?

People are and will buy anything an FFL will willingly sell them.

It’s not smart to register anything.

Plan is to life your life as you see fit wrt the risks you accept.

Should have bought the CA lowers in volume at $29 each.

 

[Coyote33]

The run for compliant, serialized, and Ma rarities will continue in haste.
All the while the honeypot of FRTs, super safeties, switches, lightening links, auto sears will proliferate in crime ridden sections ad nauseum as if nothing changed.

Heck, illegals can have guns now, so aren't all bets now off?

I'm not so confident, and even if they did, will MA politicians care ?

Not care, but will they act/react? Will anyone? Will they even recognize it?

They jumped on the holding in Bruen and Caetano
We may not believe they went as far as they should but they made an immediate effort to toe the line in both cases

True enough.

Mass was already compliant with the core holding in Heller since we could have an operable handgun in the home with a license.
If SCOTUS strikes down the AWB, then any state actor trying to enforce laws contrary to the holding would be open to a pretty lucrative suite without benefit of qualified immunity.

How does "Q.I." go away again? And who will prosecute them again?

Any pol or Leo that tries to pass/enforce an AWB after/if/when SCOTUS rules it unconstitutional needs to face a lot more than a lawsuit. Guantanamo sounds good.

See answer immediately above.

 

[Coyote33]

Gun bill negotiators leave talks open, for now

In a twist not seen in years on Beacon Hill, a group of lawmakers tasked with negotiating major legislation opted — at least for another week — to keep their work open to the public.

www.wwlp.com

Six-member committee to decide legislature's gun control proposal

Rep. Michael Day wants to get something passed soon.

spectrumnews1.com

The news on the radio yesterday said they will reconvene or something like that in a week, and if they can't agree, this might all be out the window.

 

[Palladin]

Creem is a Twat.......100% Twat

 

[Mesatchornug]

I don't think so but I think there is a post for it in Fusion 360

IIRC, it's an Arduino running a lightly modified version of grbl.

 

[pastera]

How does "Q.I." go away again? And who will prosecute them again?

Feds don't have a problem putting lowly state level thugs in their place