Mosin Obrez - SBR or Pistol

[MadRussian]

So for those of you who have never herd of an Obrez, it's a Mosin rifle with a cut down barrel and no or short stock.



After some reading on NFA, converting a Mosin (rifle) to this, even if I cut off the stock, makes it an SBR.
Now, what about this:
http://www.slickguns.com/product/mosin-nagant-m9130-receiver-2999
I know they are out of stock, but If I ever come across this again, would building one off an imported/never-assembled receiver make it a pistol and non-NFA?

Ideas? Suggestions?

 

[ColdDayInHell]

Subbed

 

[MadRussian]

Subbed?
What?

 

[tk421991]

Once a rifle, always a rifle. If you chop a Mosin, it's an SBR. I know with AR lowers that if you get the seller to sell you a receiver as a pistol, it's legally a pistol and no NFA papers needed.

So my suggestion is to buy a Mosin receiver as a pistol on the 4473 and any state papers you need.

- - - Updated - - -

Subbed?
What?

He has subscribed to the thread (for reading).

 

[MadRussian]

So my suggestion is to buy a Mosin receiver as a pistol on the 4473 and any state papers you need.

How and where do I find a receiver as a pistol? I have yet to come across that as an option.

I really don't want to wait 10+ months for a Form-1+stamp.

 

[soam]

A bare receiver that has never been built is neither a pistol nor a rifle, on the 4473 there is a third option, Other, which is used for receivers. You can build a virgin receiver into a pistol.

 

[MadRussian]

A bare receiver that has never been built is neither a pistol nor a rifle, on the 4473 there is a third option, Other, which is used for receivers. You can build a virgin receiver into a pistol.

That is a text book answer.
Where do I find a virgin receiver in the US for a Russian rifle that hasn't been built in over 50 years? Other then the one link that's been out-of-stock for two years.

 

[Lowbird]

You had me at Obrez.

Unfortunately I think it has to be an SBR. Because all Mosin's were long guns.



Now. If you were to find someone to make/find you a new production unit. It would be like an AR lower.
I'd be in for 2 if you find someone.

 

[tk421991]

That is a text book answer.
Where do I find a virgin receiver in the US for a Russian rifle that hasn't been built in over 50 years? Other then the one link that's been out-of-stock for two years.

Where the paper trail starts - the importer. If the people selling the receivers are also the importer, you should try and ask if they'll sell you the receiver as a pistol or an other.

 

[MadRussian]

Where the paper trail starts - the importer. If the people selling the receivers are also the importer, you should try and ask if they'll sell you the receiver as a pistol or an other.

That's a good call. I will look into it. Might have some luck.

You had me at Obrez.
...
Now. If you were to find someone to make/find you a new production unit. It would be like an AR lower.
I'd be in for 2 if you find someone.

I will keep you mind, I could probably get a Group Buy, I'm sure a few people would be interested.

 

[GunGrey]

I dont know but couldnt you demill it?

dont people reweld demilled AK receivers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7VSu_zdXEg

haha cockweasle

 

[Almostelmo]

If you made your own receiver to replace the original, with no intent to sell, could you then call it a pistol and not have to deal with the NFA stuff?

 

[MadRussian]

If you made your own receiver to replace the original, with no intent to sell, could you then call it a pistol and not have to deal with the NFA stuff?

Yes, but that's not really an option because I don't have the means or the specs to make my own right now.

 

[vellnueve]

You had me at Obrez.

Unfortunately I think it has to be an SBR. Because all Mosin's were long guns.



Now. If you were to find someone to make/find you a new production unit. It would be like an AR lower.
I'd be in for 2 if you find someone.

I would suggest finding a pre-1898 complete, as original as possible rifle. Since pre-1898 rifles are considered antiques and not actually "rifles" under federal law, they do not fall under the auspices of GCA and thus building off one of those receivers shouldn't be construed as building a rifle into a pistol, rather it would be building a new modern firearm (using the antique receiver). Definitely check with the guys who know federal law better, but I think it wouldn't be any different than making your own gun from scratch, since in the eyes of the Feds an antique gun has no status under GCA.

 

[tk421991]

I would suggest finding a pre-1898 complete, as original as possible rifle. Since pre-1898 rifles are considered antiques and not actually "rifles" under federal law, they do not fall under the auspices of GCA and thus building off one of those receivers shouldn't be construed as building a rifle into a pistol, rather it would be building a new modern firearm (using the antique receiver)

That's a great idea, but I'd read this thread and think on it carefully:

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-115571.html

 

[vellnueve]

That's a great idea, but I'd read this thread and think on it carefully:

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-115571.html

Yes, but if he builds it as a pistol and never adds a stock then NFA doesn't even come into play. Obviously if you build an SBR you'll need a Form 1 and tax stamp. My point is that since it wasn't a rifle under federal law to begin with, taking that antique receiver and building it into a pistol configuration should be legally fine, whereas you cannot convert a GCA rifle into a pistol.

 

[warwickben]

I would suggest finding a pre-1898 complete, as original as possible rifle. Since pre-1898 rifles are considered antiques and not actually "rifles" under federal law, they do not fall under the auspices of GCA and thus building off one of those receivers shouldn't be construed as building a rifle into a pistol, rather it would be building a new modern firearm (using the antique receiver)

Go the love of god don't cut one up unless it's really that bad.

I looked for some time.
I looked into buying 2 mosins and demilling them but never got a clear answer in how to legally do that.

You can buy barrels with with a receiver shank. I've seen people make there own back halfs. I've yet to find rear / middle sections to buy.

I've made a jig so if I ever find the sections I could reweld one.

I got all the blue prints for the receiver now. If I had a lathe that was big enough I would try to tackle makeing the rear section.

Sadly lol I'd be willing to pay up to 500$ heck maybe a little more. If a FFl could make me a receiver. I wouldn't even know where to start finding a place to be willing to do it.

 

[tk421991]

Yes, but if he builds it as a pistol and never adds a stock then NFA doesn't even come into play. Obviously if you build an SBR you'll need a Form 1 and tax stamp. My point is that since it wasn't a rifle under federal law to begin with, taking that antique receiver and building it into a pistol configuration should be legally fine, whereas you cannot convert a GCA rifle into a pistol.

See post 2 in the older thread:

Concerning ammunition availability, it is important to note that a specific type of fixed ammunition that has been out of production for many years may again become available due to increasing interest in older firearms. Therefore, the classification of a specific NFA firearm as an antique can change if ammunition for the weapon becomes readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

That's referring to antique rifles. According to that thread, a rifle can be classified as an antique if its older than 1898 and the ammo isn't available commercially. 7.62x54r is currently sold by at least 3 current ammo companies in addition to all the surplus. 7.62x54r ammo is readily available.

So if MadRussian wants to go the antique route, I'd make sure the antique is actually an antique and not just a C&R.

 

[vellnueve]

What do you need to cut up? Buy complete antique Mosin, and a junker Type 53 or other very common mosin. Take both guns all the way apart. Use the receiver off the antique gun, cut the junker stock into a pistol grip only and cut the junker barrel down and join them all together. Engrave the pistol with your info in case you ever decide to sell it since you are the maker of a new GCA firearm. Reassemble the rifle using the newer receiver and the rifle parts from the antique gun.

Or just get your tax stamp:

 

[vellnueve]

See post 2 in the older thread:



That's referring to antique rifles. According to that thread, a rifle can be classified as an antique if its older than 1898 and the ammo isn't available commercially. 7.62x54r is currently sold by at least 3 current ammo companies in addition to all the surplus. 7.62x54r ammo is readily available.

So if MadRussian wants to go the antique route, I'd make sure the antique is actually an antique and not just a C&R.

Antique Mosins are widely available and are sold as such. Other than machine guns and SBRs and SBSs, almost all pre-1899 firearms are antiques and are not regulated under GCA or NFA.

18 USC 921 (a)(16).
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica -- (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial
trade.

Note that the "centerfire ammunition" clause clearly only applies to replicas.

 

[tk421991]

Antique Mosins are widely available and are sold as such. Other than machine guns and SBRs and SBSs, almost all pre-1899 firearms are antiques and are not regulated under GCA or NFA.

Note that the "centerfire ammunition" clause clearly only applies to replicas.

Yeah I just looked up the ATF's website myself, because I've seen Mosins marked for sale as antiques but I never heard of the ammo requirement. Guess that guy in 2010 was wrong because that gun was an 1894 Winchester. The centerfire ammo thing has to do with guns that used to be breachloaders and were turned into muzzleloaders.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/921

(16) The term "antique firearm" means - (A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or (B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica - (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or (C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

 

[warwickben]

So a antique you could make into a obrez and it be legal ? So confused , not that I would cut one of then up.

 

[Boris]

ok tards, why the **** do you need a receiver?

buy a demilled barrel (used to be $20), it still has the lugs on it. So you can lock the bolt in it and use it as a single shot (not too far from being a bolt action) Tie that to a piece of 2x2 and you got an Obrez. No paperwork, no FFL.

 

[vellnueve]

ok tards, why the **** do you need a receiver?

buy a demilled barrel (used to be $20), it still has the lugs on it. So you can lock the bolt in it and use it as a single shot (not too far from being a bolt action) Tie that to a piece of 2x2 and you got an Obrez. No paperwork, no FFL.

Well, for one thing you get to keep the magazine when you use the receiver. Second, using an antique receiver means no paperwork or FFL either, until you decide to sell it (same as your plan)

 

[MadRussian]

I was talking to a 07-FFL (manufacturer) who said that he can re-manufacture a Mosin into an Obrez as a pistol an not an SBR. I need to look into it some more to see if he is correct.

 

[warwickben]

I was talking to a 07-FFL (manufacturer) who said that he can re-manufacture a Mosin into an Obrez as a pistol an not an SBR. I need to look into it some more to see if he is correct.

dude if its not crazy money I'm a in !!!!

 

[WallHack]

Funny, I just came into the NFA forum to post about my lust for an Obrez. I'm starting to think that the chief in Worcester won't approve a Form 1, so I'm looking into other options.

Meanwhile, I realize you could do it without involving the feds with an antique Mosin, but I'd feel awful ruining one. I was thinking more along the lines of a Type 53 because they're beat to **** anyways.

 

[exo]

Funny, I just came into the NFA forum to post about my lust for an Obrez. I'm starting to think that the chief in Worcester won't approve a Form 1, so I'm looking into other options.

Meanwhile, I realize you could do it without involving the feds with an antique Mosin, but I'd feel awful ruining one. I was thinking more along the lines of a Type 53 because they're beat to **** anyways.

I feel the same way about making a scout rifle out of a Mosin - I don't think I could bring myself to savage it. I keep an eye out for sporterized mosins that have already been bubba'd, but people tend to want stupid money for them.

 

[warwickben]

I feel the same way about making a scout rifle out of a Mosin - I don't think I could bring myself to savage it. I keep an eye out for sporterized mosins that have already been bubba'd, but people tend to want stupid money for them.

You could make a scout and be able to convert it back depending which scope mount you went with , unless you want to chop the barrel down .

 

[Boris]

Mosin receiver is just a tube with two channels that guide the bolt lugs, it carries no stress of the round firing, except for recoil.

If you really want to make your own mosin receiver, oversized tube and a barrel with piece of the receiver(lugs) intact is your ticket.