NEW H&K VP9 A1 vs Original VP9: What’s New and Is It Better?

[DarkJoker33]

I was always curious if Glocks loved "almost giving their guns away" to government agencies, police depts, etc why didn't our us military go with the Glock aka America's fav handgun? Surely they're great guns if a lot of special operators specifically choose them as side pieces.

Market saturation.
Flood the market with your product and it'll be accepted as the norm.

 

[DarkJoker33]

Sig ticked the boxes and lowest bid.

And paid off the right people

 

[Dench]

Is it not innovation?

You can buy multiple PSA daggers for the price of 1 Glock.
You can 3d print multiple Glock lowers for next to nothing and buy the cheapest Glock clone components and slide assembly for the price of 1 Glock

I can buy almost 3 Beretta APX's when on sale for the price of 1 Glock

2 used M&P for 1 Glock

3 sdve's for 1 Glock

Need I go on?

why would I do any of that?

 

[drgrant]

It really is though, just without the label.

Nope.

And the clone is often better in every single regard.

No, it's not. It doesn't have Glock factory support and has MASSIVELY degraded retained value the moment you buy it. (the latter part matters to most people who aren't dense) If I'm poor tomorrow I can get money for my Glocks. On the other hand if I have a fleet of Faglaroid 9000XPS Glock clones, nobody, and I mean NOBODY is going to buy that shit except at give-away prices. My Glocks would be sold by the end of the week at 75% retention.

And the watch comparison is insane.

No, it's not.

That's like comparing a Glock vs a Atlas,Nighthawk or Cabot.
Hand crafted quality vs factory line assembly.
Of which I think are insanely overpriced. But I understand it because of craftsmanship.

Not really a great comparison but the consumer reasoning is similar.

Re-releasing gen1 just to scrape more money
Finger grooves 1 gen,then gone the next, then back again?
Late to market with a objectively sub part optics system
Now licensing with aimpoint for a proprietary cut
They are playing catch up at a slower pace than they should

None of that shit cost them a lot of money and they are still selling scads of guns. Over the past decade Glock has invested very little and made a ton off of it.

I can guarantee my opinion wouldn't change.
Because they are not perfection as their marketing campaign touts. Because if they were, the aftermarket wouldn't be as massive as it is for the gen 3 and on

You can keep being clueless if you want or you can get with the program with the adults in reality. The reality on the ground is nobody is giving a Glock a run for their money in any meaningful way, and at most Sig is damaging them a little as is S&W. The other weird shit you mentioned? Not even statistically significant in terms of sales in most gun
shops.

And back to that it always works.
Tons of guns do this today . Tons of guns did this before Glock. Tons of guns will do this after Glock is gone.

QC among other manufs is a ?, not so with Glock, HK, Walther and a few
others.

It's not a special sauce that Glock has pioneered or invented.

Yeah, well they own (and created) the ecosystem, wether you want to remain in denial of this fact or not is up to you. They sell the guns and train the armorers and produce a metric f***ton of parts....

Maybe it's because I like puzzles,maybe because I'm a diy'er,maybe because I was a mechanic.
Most guns aren't hard to work on. Especially pistols.

Nearly every other handgun is a HUGE pain in the ass compared to a glock to work on.

I don't like f***ing around with my guns. I really f***ing hate it, actually. I want them to
work. I want them to work with the least amount of BS.

I fix broken shit for 60 hours a week. I don't want to be fixing guns. I want to mod them (if necessary) and be done with it, nearly forever, outside of whatever maint is required.

And especially with places like here and YouTube full of information.
Again, not a Glock special sauce.

Doesn't matter to the average consumer.

You are not the average consumer, obviously.

 

[DarkJoker33]

why would I do any of that?

You brought up the cost comparison.
I did the same, just using Glock as the "high end" example instead of of the Alien.

 

[DarkJoker33]

Nope.




No, it's not. It doesn't have Glock factory support and has MASSIVELY degraded retained value the moment you buy it. (the latter part matters to most people who aren't dense) If I'm poor tomorrow I can get money for my Glocks. On the other hand if I have a fleet of Faglaroid 9000XPS Glock clones, nobody, and I mean NOBODY is going to buy that shit except at give-away prices. My Glocks would be sold by the end of the week at 75% retention.



No, it's not.



Not really a great comparison but the consumer reasoning is similar.



None of that shit cost them a lot of money and they are still selling scads of guns. Over the past decade Glock has invested very little and made a ton off of it.



You can keep being clueless if you want or you can get with the program with the adults in reality. The reality on the ground is nobody is giving a Glock a run for their money in any meaningful way, and at most Sig is damaging them a little as is S&W. The other weird shit you mentioned? Not even statistically significant in terms of sales in most gun
shops.



QC among other manufs is a ?, not so with Glock, HK, Walther and a few
others.



Yeah, well they own (and created) the ecosystem, wether you want to remain in denial of this fact or not is up to you. They sell the guns and train the armorers and produce a metric f***ton of parts....



Nearly every other handgun is a HUGE pain in the ass compared to a glock to work on.

I don't like f***ing around with my guns. I really f***ing hate it, actually. I want them to
work. I want them to work with the least amount of BS.

I fix broken shit for 60 hours a week. I don't want to be fixing guns. I want to mod them (if necessary) and be done with it, nearly forever, outside of whatever maint is required.



Doesn't matter to the average consumer.

You are not the average consumer, obviously.

But it does have factory support because all the parts are gen 3 parts equivalent.
So if a firing pin breaks in a Zev, you get a Glock firing pin and it's done. Trigger,trigger pins,springs,recoil rods etc all the same shit.

Shadow systems to my knowledge is the odd ball out due to how they did their optics system

Resell is almost always half of the original purchase price.
So Glock $600 new means you getting 300 ish then resells for $400+/-

Same formula applies to a dagger that was 300
Or a smith that was also 600
Or the cheaper smith that was 400

If that's 1 thing I've learned from here and like everything else, trade value always sucks unless it's collectors level.

Agree to disagree on the watch comparison than

Production and molds always cost money

It has nothing to do with being clueless.
It has everything to do with not accepting another's opinion over my own opinion or experience.
They aren't special and pretty much never were except for the first couple years.
And even then, they aren't the pioneer of polymer pistols.
They got to where they are by handing out their products at a loss or for free.
That's it.

There's plenty of reliable guns out there from smaller companies and even bigger ones.
They might not be on your radar,because you don't care for them to be or may not know about them.

Eco system of what exactly?

Maybe that's a you thing.
Out of any gun I've handled, the 2 most I've disliked are the Walther ppk and my grand power.
And that's primarily, because they are just different.
The ppk is fixed barrel so the slide goes back and over.
And the grand power is similar but not fixed barrel but still needs to be aligned in a specific way.
Again primarily, because I don't sit here and do tear down and reassembly over and over.

My 92/96's the only pain in the ass part is the slide safety springs and pins. Everything else is a cake walk.

I tear down every used guy I buy and replace wear items and upgrade as I want.

Not really average consumer no.
But also, that's just laziness.
If you own something like a gun and don't do the basic research of basic maintenance and repairs, you are just foolish too me.

 

[drgrant]

But it does have factory support because all the parts are gen 3 parts equivalent.

I've had Glock replace entire handguns in under a week for nothing, as well as send me parts for free. That's what factory support is. And a human answers the phone. I also left my early G42 at a shop with a dealer who was going to send it out. The next day a Glock rep visited his shop, and he fixed my gun by installing a new trigger bar mechanism and left me a spare magazine for my trouble. All at a cost of $0. Even when I had factory service worst I had to do was pay the FFL for shipping outbound + a small vig for their time logging the gun in and out. No months of waiting, no getting back a
broken gun.

So if a firing pin breaks in a Zev, you get a Glock firing pin and it's done. Trigger,trigger pins,springs,recoil rods etc all the same shit.

Shadow systems to my knowledge is the odd ball out due to how they did their optics system

Yeah but do you realize, none of that shit exists without Glock existing, right?

All of these faggoty custom houses make more money selling parts to Glock owners than they do making clones or shit like that.

Resell is almost always half of the original purchase price.
So Glock $600 new means you getting 300 ish then resells for $400+/-

No, it's not. Back when I was poor I would run into trouble and have to sell mine off, and I always got back like 75% of the value, in under a week. You're not going to do that with
some hipster-fake-glock thing that nobody wants, no stupid Arex dagger f***ulon pile of crap thing. It might be objectively better but it's not in the real world in terms of value.

Same formula applies to a dagger that was 300
Or a smith that was also 600
Or the cheaper smith that was 400

If you have to go to that level a gun shop is going to laugh at you with a dagger or some other knock off. Because we're heading into a trump slump 2 again now, they might not even take those guns at this point except at extreme rape rates. On a privsale a knockoff
guarantees a tire kicking skinflint buyer. An M&P especially one of the newer ones might retain most of its value, assuming its not a garbage sku with a mag safety etc (eg, more things that nobody wants).

If that's 1 thing I've learned from here and like everything else, trade value always sucks unless it's collectors level.

There's taking a chunk off and then there is rape. Weird stuff means you're basically going to have to accept rape or possibly not selling the gun. With more mainstream stuff, not so much.

Agree to disagree on the watch comparison than

Production and molds always cost money

The BOM cost on a Glock isn't a lot of $. Sure there are R&D costs but I would be shocked if they are not past paying off the sunk costs on every new model in a quarter or two. Glock makes and sells a metric f***ton of handguns every year. They're not losing money.

I don't think you really understand how many guns Glock sells regardless of how shitty you think the guns are. Befriend a medium to large size shop owner and ask him to have a look at his handgun backstock inventory. You're going to see a pile of Glock boxes that likely either match or exceeds the size of the other top brands. In my time working in the industry the only time ive seen a pile of boxes get close to that was with Sigs, and even then we still always had less sigs than glocks around, and 65% of the Sigs were all P365 variants.

It has nothing to do with being clueless.
It has everything to do with not accepting another's opinion over my own opinion or experience.

I don't acccept it because you claimed glock was going to go out of business because of lack of innovation or something. That's factually one of the the dumbest takes I've ever heard on this site, or one of them. It's not backed by facts in any real discernable way. Because you think the guns suck doesn't make the company not successful.

They aren't special and pretty much never were except for the first couple years.

Glocks are not special. That is literally the entire point of the product. This apparently is lost on you. It's literally the most generic, boring, semiautomatic polymer framed handgun in existence. And that's literally why its one of the top brands.

And even then, they aren't the pioneer of polymer pistols.

No, but they're the first company who actually made polymer handguns that people actually wanted to buy.

That's it.

It's called smart business.

There's plenty of reliable guns out there from smaller companies and even bigger ones.
They might not be on your radar,because you don't care for them to be or may not know about them.

I've owned like (at least, its probably WAY more but I lost count) over $20,000 worth of non glock handguns. I'd like to believe.... maybe? maybe I know what I am talking about. Possibly. I was a massive Sig and HK fag long before I got into Glocks. Yes there are other quality guns in that segment, for sure. (And I've sold hundreds of non glock handguns as well as tons of glocks at retail) But none of them are really going to threaten Glock's market share in any meaningful way. Hell the P365 probably took more money from them than everything else combined (because there's a lot of solid arguments for that platform) and because it was in a growing market segment (eg, fresh meat/new blood) Also that was one of the VERY FEW segments of handguns where people actually cross shop. When you get into anything larger than that, a lot less cross-shopping happens and the person already usually has determined what they're gonna buy before they even go into the shop.

This isn't a Glock fanboi thing either. I'm also the first person to tell someone to not buy a Glock if it doesn't work well for them. There are lots of choices, but I don't think you really understand how baked in market shares are in with brands. Conversely there are literally "Smith People" who will nearly ONLY buy smith unless smith doesn't make the things they want. These people are an order of magnitude weirder than the average Glock buyer.

WRT new people... The most amount of cross shopping that threatens glock's $ is probably between the 43x and Sig P365 vs Hellcat thing, but even then, you don't see it that often. Oh noes Glock is only 3rd place at selling CCW guns. woe is the world. They're gonna go out of business. Just stop.

I don't think you really understand the power of branding in business, what a brand represents, etc. Companies like Glock, Sig, and S&W have VERY strong brands in
this business. None of them are going anywhere anytime soon, not even Sig with its massive P320 f***up disasters, or Smith with its now-pretty-darn-horrible QC at random odd intervals.

There's also room in the market (by necessity) for multiple different players.

"not innovative enough" literally is not a thing. In guns or elsewhere. (Toyota, as an example, is not a big geegaw syndrome company and is one of the top brands in america, to use a car analogy).

"Not innovative enough" would be a thing if we were transiting off blackpowder into centerfire ammunition or something crazy like that... but guess what, that's like over 100 years ago at this point.

Bottom line- Glock will still be in the top 5 selling tons of guns 10 years from now even if they innovate ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Because the brand is literally that powerful. The same could be said for even S&W.

Eco system of what exactly?

The fact that I can on a Sunday make a few phone calls and get nearly every part of the
pistol in an hour radius from my house. That doesn't exist without Glock's position in the market being what it is. Modifications, magazines, holster selection, etc. Nothing else comes close except 1911 variants.

Maybe that's a you thing.
Out of any gun I've handled, the 2 most I've disliked are the Walther ppk and my grand power.
And that's primarily, because they are just different.
The ppk is fixed barrel so the slide goes back and over.
And the grand power is similar but not fixed barrel but still needs to be aligned in a specific way.
Again primarily, because I don't sit here and do tear down and reassembly over and over.

My 92/96's the only pain in the ass part is the slide safety springs and pins. Everything else is a cake walk.

I tear down every used guy I buy and replace wear items and upgrade as I want.

Not really average consumer no.
But also, that's just laziness.
If you own something like a gun and don't do the basic research of basic maintenance and repairs, you are just foolish too me.

It's not lazy to me. TIME COST VALUE!!!! (think of dennis hopper going PABST BLUE RIBBON!) There are other things I'd rather do with my time (like, even sleeping) or something, than pretend to be a gun plumber. f***ing around with guns more than I have to when I'm not being paid to do so is like DSP. It took me till getting a bit past 40 to figure this out, but now I completely understand why rich people have house staff. Because 80% of life is shit that you eventually figure out is a huge waste of time.

BTW I know how to detail strip handguns. I've done it to shit like 1911s and USPs before. It's not an issue of knowing how to do it. I do. I just don't care to because its a f***ing
waste of time. The lack of complexity in a Glock results in demonstrably less time wasted for upgrades and maintenance.

Maybe if iI was crippled or retired I'd feel differently. But haxoring a shitty APX or something is no longer my idea of a great time. Even when I clean guns I have to be in the right frame of mind to do it, because it sucks. (even when it sucks I want to DO IT RIGHT or at least enough to ensure reliability, because broken guns or malfunctions are 1000x worse than cleaning guns. ) I used to be one of those people that cleaned their guns constantly after every range trip, etc, so on and so forth. Eventually life gets in the way and it becomes stupid. It's a matter of perspective I guess. I realize that some here have an agreement with their wife or whatever to leave them alone for a few hrs to do shit to guns and they get enjoyment out of it. I get that. If you enjoy tinkering, more power to you. Just different mentalities.

 

[Dench]

Are all these glock clones results of an expired patent?

 

[DarkJoker33]

Are all these glock clones results of an expired patent?

Yes. Said that a couple times already.
Also said early on, they may have something special but past the gen 3 patent expiration, they haven't done anything.

 

[G4Y4HK]

Yes. Said that a couple times already.
Also said early on, they may have something special but past the gen 3 patent expiration, they haven't done anything.

Yeah once you've reached PeRfEcTiON, you only need minor improvements lol.

 

[Dench]

Yes. Said that a couple times already.
Also said early on, they may have something special but past the gen 3 patent expiration, they haven't done anything.

Whose cloning Glock 17Ls these days

 

[DarkJoker33]

Whose cloning Glock 17Ls these days

L kits
Zev
Zafarri
Spinta

And id assume a handful of aftermarket shops I'm not going to dig further for

 

[DarkJoker33]

I've had Glock replace entire handguns in under a week for nothing, as well as send me parts for free. That's what factory support is. And a human answers the phone. I also left my early G42 at a shop with a dealer who was going to send it out. The next day a Glock rep visited his shop, and he fixed my gun by installing a new trigger bar mechanism and left me a spare magazine for my trouble. All at a cost of $0. Even when I had factory service worst I had to do was pay the FFL for shipping outbound + a small vig for their time logging the gun in and out. No months of waiting, no getting back a
broken gun.



Yeah but do you realize, none of that shit exists without Glock existing, right?

All of these faggoty custom houses make more money selling parts to Glock owners than they do making clones or shit like that.



No, it's not. Back when I was poor I would run into trouble and have to sell mine off, and I always got back like 75% of the value, in under a week. You're not going to do that with
some hipster-fake-glock thing that nobody wants, no stupid Arex dagger f***ulon pile of crap thing. It might be objectively better but it's not in the real world in terms of value.



If you have to go to that level a gun shop is going to laugh at you with a dagger or some other knock off. Because we're heading into a trump slump 2 again now, they might not even take those guns at this point except at extreme rape rates. On a privsale a knockoff
guarantees a tire kicking skinflint buyer. An M&P especially one of the newer ones might retain most of its value, assuming its not a garbage sku with a mag safety etc (eg, more things that nobody wants).



There's taking a chunk off and then there is rape. Weird stuff means you're basically going to have to accept rape or possibly not selling the gun. With more mainstream stuff, not so much.



The BOM cost on a Glock isn't a lot of $. Sure there are R&D costs but I would be shocked if they are not past paying off the sunk costs on every new model in a quarter or two. Glock makes and sells a metric f***ton of handguns every year. They're not losing money.

I don't think you really understand how many guns Glock sells regardless of how shitty you think the guns are. Befriend a medium to large size shop owner and ask him to have a look at his handgun backstock inventory. You're going to see a pile of Glock boxes that likely either match or exceeds the size of the other top brands. In my time working in the industry the only time ive seen a pile of boxes get close to that was with Sigs, and even then we still always had less sigs than glocks around, and 65% of the Sigs were all P365 variants.



I don't acccept it because you claimed glock was going to go out of business because of lack of innovation or something. That's factually one of the the dumbest takes I've ever heard on this site, or one of them. It's not backed by facts in any real discernable way. Because you think the guns suck doesn't make the company not successful.



Glocks are not special. That is literally the entire point of the product. This apparently is lost on you. It's literally the most generic, boring, semiautomatic polymer framed handgun in existence. And that's literally why its one of the top brands.



No, but they're the first company who actually made polymer handguns that people actually wanted to buy.



It's called smart business.



I've owned like (at least, its probably WAY more but I lost count) over $20,000 worth of non glock handguns. I'd like to believe.... maybe? maybe I know what I am talking about. Possibly. I was a massive Sig and HK fag long before I got into Glocks. Yes there are other quality guns in that segment, for sure. (And I've sold hundreds of non glock handguns as well as tons of glocks at retail) But none of them are really going to threaten Glock's market share in any meaningful way. Hell the P365 probably took more money from them than everything else combined (because there's a lot of solid arguments for that platform) and because it was in a growing market segment (eg, fresh meat/new blood) Also that was one of the VERY FEW segments of handguns where people actually cross shop. When you get into anything larger than that, a lot less cross-shopping happens and the person already usually has determined what they're gonna buy before they even go into the shop.

This isn't a Glock fanboi thing either. I'm also the first person to tell someone to not buy a Glock if it doesn't work well for them. There are lots of choices, but I don't think you really understand how baked in market shares are in with brands. Conversely there are literally "Smith People" who will nearly ONLY buy smith unless smith doesn't make the things they want. These people are an order of magnitude weirder than the average Glock buyer.

WRT new people... The most amount of cross shopping that threatens glock's $ is probably between the 43x and Sig P365 vs Hellcat thing, but even then, you don't see it that often. Oh noes Glock is only 3rd place at selling CCW guns. woe is the world. They're gonna go out of business. Just stop.

I don't think you really understand the power of branding in business, what a brand represents, etc. Companies like Glock, Sig, and S&W have VERY strong brands in
this business. None of them are going anywhere anytime soon, not even Sig with its massive P320 f***up disasters, or Smith with its now-pretty-darn-horrible QC at random odd intervals.

There's also room in the market (by necessity) for multiple different players.

"not innovative enough" literally is not a thing. In guns or elsewhere. (Toyota, as an example, is not a big geegaw syndrome company and is one of the top brands in america, to use a car analogy).

"Not innovative enough" would be a thing if we were transiting off blackpowder into centerfire ammunition or something crazy like that... but guess what, that's like over 100 years ago at this point.

Bottom line- Glock will still be in the top 5 selling tons of guns 10 years from now even if they innovate ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Because the brand is literally that powerful. The same could be said for even S&W.



The fact that I can on a Sunday make a few phone calls and get nearly every part of the
pistol in an hour radius from my house. That doesn't exist without Glock's position in the market being what it is. Modifications, magazines, holster selection, etc. Nothing else comes close except 1911 variants.



It's not lazy to me. TIME COST VALUE!!!! (think of dennis hopper going PABST BLUE RIBBON!) There are other things I'd rather do with my time (like, even sleeping) or something, than pretend to be a gun plumber. f***ing around with guns more than I have to when I'm not being paid to do so is like DSP. It took me till getting a bit past 40 to figure this out, but now I completely understand why rich people have house staff. Because 80% of life is shit that you eventually figure out is a huge waste of time.

BTW I know how to detail strip handguns. I've done it to shit like 1911s and USPs before. It's not an issue of knowing how to do it. I do. I just don't care to because its a f***ing
waste of time. The lack of complexity in a Glock results in demonstrably less time wasted for upgrades and maintenance.

Maybe if iI was crippled or retired I'd feel differently. But haxoring a shitty APX or something is no longer my idea of a great time. Even when I clean guns I have to be in the right frame of mind to do it, because it sucks. (even when it sucks I want to DO IT RIGHT or at least enough to ensure reliability, because broken guns or malfunctions are 1000x worse than cleaning guns. ) I used to be one of those people that cleaned their guns constantly after every range trip, etc, so on and so forth. Eventually life gets in the way and it becomes stupid. It's a matter of perspective I guess. I realize that some here have an agreement with their wife or whatever to leave them alone for a few hrs to do shit to guns and they get enjoyment out of it. I get that. If you enjoy tinkering, more power to you. Just different mentalities.

Have you had personal experience with the clone shops that have been mentioned here to base an option off of?

I personally don't know, because I'm not in Glock world.
And being a diy'er if it's basic, I'll just buy the part and fix it myself rather than go through the B's of sending it in.

Yes I am aware. That's why I've used the word clone multiple times to represent that.
And having those parts more readily available and potentially better or improved materials is nice as well. They just like Glock make money on their guns too. Same as the parts. Because some may like a p80 grip and may like the Zev slide or whatever combo. Which is why Glock has a massive aftermarket because of all the boutique small companies.

Were those Massachusetts selling prices because everyone was scared or normal market prices outside of ban states?

AREX for the money beats out Glock everyday of the week. held both, shot both. Bought the AREX.
Only down side is no aftermarket because they are a small European company.
But again they saw the short comings of Glocks and made the better improvements and still sell for less.

Daggers, I have no comment on. And have a somewhat biased hate for palmetto in general because they won't ship anything to Massachusetts at all. Like Wilson combat , all aero subsidiaries and a few more. That I will also never buy from again.

Tell that to the HK 45 I tried to trade towards an M&P 2.0. the offer was insulting on the HK.
Won't ever got to that shop again.
Got a little more from a more local shop that I keep going too.

If nothing has really changed between the generations of Glocks and they really are the same thing over and over, there is no r&d to recoup.
Which means they are essentially stealing everyone's money for an inferior product.

Why are there mass amounts of Glock boxes?
All new?
Mixed of new and used or police buy backs?
Crazy cheap promo prices for dealers?
Big kick backs for sales?
Again, it's one of the most traded in guns. Which means 1 of 3 possible things off the top of my head.
1. It sat and did nothing and the owner didn't feel like they needed it anymore
2. Someone died and the person that inherited it didn't want it.
3. The buyer found out it wasn't for them and upgraded to something better fitting.

The market is leaving them behind.
LE contracts and gov contracts are their big business.
Then the only Glock community similar to the only smith community you referenced earlier.
And when I say LE and Gov, I'm referring to the off duty purchases that still use their on duty discounts.
They'll continue to buy Glock for 2 reasons.
1. Discount
2. It's what they use on duty, so they know the operation of it and won't have to learn anything new.

Then there's a whole demographic of people that buy it for multiple reasons unknown to me and switches.
Never said they weren't successful. Just said I think it's coming to an end based on how slow they are adapting to an evolving market.

It's one of the top brands because they gave there product away and flooded the market.
Then all the I have to be like the police or military hard ons jumped on board and followed suit.
That was their marketing strategy.
After that, they developed it a little more.
Kinda like a new customer and drug dealer.
Give em a taste for a heavy discount or free and you get a customer for life

Were all your sales Massachusetts based?
If so, Massachusetts roster restrictions have al lot to do with not offering the competition to Glock which would be why the sales would slant in that direction.
I realize the marketing power and brand recognition for it. I just think that they'll will lose that in the coming years. Personal opinion due to things I've already stated.

Being a former mechanic, I also widely understand the time cost value. I started practicing it in my late 20's. Nothing else like being flat rate will make you learn that real fast.
Which is why I work on my own stuff. That and because I trust no one else to do it.
Never mind paying someone to do something and me getting it back and expecting to be better quality for what I paid. Meaning, that the quality of work doesn't measure up to the money I spent for said service.
I apply the same to anyone working on my car. Won't let anyone do it, unless it's body work or mounting and balancing tires. Because I don't have the space for the equipment to do it.
And even then I hate paying for it because I know how easy it is.

What is exactly shitty about an APX?
Because other than the takedown lever being tight, it's just as easy as a Glock.
And in my personal opinion, better in every way except for aftermarket. But, to be honest it doesn't really need it. Maybe a lighter trigger. But that's personal preference.

 

[drgrant]

Have you had personal experience with the clone shops that have been mentioned here to base an option off of?

Not directly outside of Shadow Systems, at least in terms of their QC being pretty good, we sold plenty of them (although not nearly as many real Glocks or other brand product) and nobody has ever bitched about them. I watched a thing where a ZEV gun failed a USPSA box test, done with that brand. A lot of these companies think they can get cute with safety values. f*** that shit, not worth the risk to me.

I personally don't know, because I'm not in Glock world.
And being a diy'er if it's basic, I'll just buy the part and fix it myself rather than go through the B's of sending it in.

Even though these are plastic guns SOME advanced issues are RARELY that simple. I'll just leave it at that.

Yes I am aware. That's why I've used the word clone multiple times to represent that.
And having those parts more readily available and potentially better or improved materials is nice as well. They just like Glock make money on their guns too. Same as the parts. Because some may like a p80 grip and may like the Zev slide or whatever combo. Which is why Glock has a massive aftermarket because of all the boutique small companies.

The vast majority of the market cares very little about that crap although its stastistically significant enough to justify making the parts. (just like the tacoma truck thing mentioned in another thread)

Were those Massachusetts selling prices because everyone was scared or normal market prices outside of ban states?

Not really, I've sold my own glocks to both MA and NH people, NH people you will take a bigger hit but not that much. It's still not as bad as a direct dealer trade.

And even on a direct dealer trade... a dealer is ALWAYS going to give you more money for a real Glock over all that other garbage.... because he knows he can flip that glock in a month at the worst, the other garbage is a big ? maybe if its one of the high brow variants he might get a hook, but the stuff under a grand? they're better off buying a used glock from
someone than any of that other stuff in terms of cash flow. So they will pay more for it (proportionally).

AREX for the money beats out Glock everyday of the week. held both, shot both. Bought the AREX.

That's cute but absolutely nobody in the real world cares about that gun. I get it, you hipsters like it, good for you. But that doesn't mean its a great product commercially. If I had a gun shop and 10 of those and 10 Glocks, which do you think will be rotting on the shelf in a month or two? I gurantee you there will be more AREX whatever left
behind.

Daggers, I have no comment on. And have a somewhat biased hate for palmetto in general because they won't ship anything to Massachusetts at all. Like Wilson combat , all aero subsidiaries and a few more. That I will also never buy from again.

LMAO, IDGAF about political ideologies or risk averse stuff of vendors. PSA is just the walmart of guns though, so they're hateable by that alone. Not a lot of daggers in circulation because skinflints cant get any money for them on the secondary so they better off keeping them in the junk drawer. Probably OK guns though. I mean its a glock clone how much can they f*** up? Daggers arent flying around because every dealer views PSA as competition, and PSA doesnt sell through traditional distribution channels (as far as I know).

Tell that to the HK 45 I tried to trade towards an M&P 2.0. the offer was insulting on the HK.
Won't ever got to that shop again.
Got a little more from a more local shop that I keep going too.

Dealer trades are always going to be "insulting" because if you are standing on the other side of the counter buying something like an HK45 is a bad idea. That f***ing thing might rot in their shelf for 4 months unless they have a bunch of HK regulars that are all into that. Nothing against HK but face the fact that its a niche brand that appeals to only a sliver of the market. Even Walther is more mainstream than that. If I am a dealer and I'm buying shelf rot, it better be at pennies on the dollar. Because the opportunity cost of having capital tied up in guns that dont sell, sucks. That money could be used to buy guns that actually move.

If nothing has really changed between the generations of Glocks and they really are the same thing over and over, there is no r&d to recoup.
Which means they are essentially stealing everyone's money for an inferior product.

Lol now you are pivoting from them wasting money to stealing everyones money?

How is it theft? They didnt force anyone to buy the gun. People bought it on their own free will. And for what a Glock is supposed to be, it is not an inferior product. You still don't get this. It's a commodity gun, a known standard.

Why are there mass amounts of Glock boxes?
All new?

All new guns. Because in every gun shop glock will be TOP THREE SELLING or Top 5
at absolute worse. The only thing that outsold Glocks during Covid was P365s, with maybe Caniks and SA Hellcats fighting for 3rd or 4th place with Smith.

Even Caniks would crush your stupid glock clones 10 to 1 in sales.

Glock clones are irrelevant commercially. Or almost.

Mixed of new and used or police buy backs?
Crazy cheap promo prices for dealers?
Big kick backs for sales?
Again, it's one of the most traded in guns. Which means 1 of 3 possible things off the top of my head.
1. It sat and did nothing and the owner didn't feel like they needed it anymore
2. Someone died and the person that inherited it didn't want it.
3. The buyer found out it wasn't for them and upgraded to something better fitting.

LE Trade ins.

As far as #3 goes.... THIS HAPPENS WITH EVERY GUN. Even your beloved
clones. (half of the clones we had in the shop at any given time were trade ins).

There's also #4 which is "people bought something and needed the money more than they needed the thing" and trading in or selling a Glock is logical at that point because of the delta between getting screwed or not, etc because of retained value.

Not all that long ago the market was loaded with S&W 3rd gens. Nobody thought THOSE were shitty guns, but it was the fallout of a massive amount of LE trade ins trickling down through the gun economy.

The market is leaving them behind.
LE contracts and gov contracts are their big business.

No, sorry, but commercial sales make Glock way more money than cops do. Cops are the marketing wing, sure they make money there but at commercial retail Glock is a top
seller.

Dude go into a f***ing shop thats medium or larger and have a frank conversation with the owner. Glock is going to be easily in the top 5 in EVERY ONE of these shops. You can accept this or keep being retarded and denying reality.

Then the only Glock community similar to the only smith community you referenced earlier.

Every Glock owner I know also has non Glock handguns in their safes as well. Smith people are a whole other story.

And when I say LE and Gov, I'm referring to the off duty purchases that still use their on duty discounts.
They'll continue to buy Glock for 2 reasons.
1. Discount
2. It's what they use on duty, so they know the operation of it and won't have to learn anything new.

Glock still makes money on Blue label guns too, but thats not even a majority of commercial sales. Many Glock dealers can't even sell blue label to skinflint fags.

Then there's a whole demographic of people that buy it for multiple reasons unknown to me and switches.

switches? lol. ok.

Never said they weren't successful. Just said I think it's coming to an end based on how slow they are adapting to an evolving market.

Lol, well, it's not. I'll bet you right now in 5 years they will still be top 5 in the market, easily. The market is "evolving" less than you think it is, a lot less. You have to remove yourself from the gun nerd mindset for more than 10 seconds and you'll figure this out.

Ask yourself this, what is there to evolve to that consumers actually want? "a gun that works" is already covered by Glock and other vendors. Theres several varieties of different guns from different vendors to cover most asks of most people.

It's one of the top brands because they gave there product away and flooded the market.

Good, Otherwise nobody would have adopted polymer handguns as readily as they
did.

Then all the I have to be like the police or military hard ons jumped on board and followed suit.
That was their marketing strategy.
After that, they developed it a little more.
Kinda like a new customer and drug dealer.
Give em a taste for a heavy discount or free and you get a customer for life

Except that most people that bought glocks didnt get a discount. They wanted something different other than the junk they were being fed.

Were all your sales Massachusetts based?

No. I would say probably 40% went down there, rest over the counter to NH residents. It varied from month to month. Glock sales are still strong in places where theres no legal bullshit. You can go into a gun shop of consequence in the middle of the US and on average they are going to tell you what I just told you, right here.

If so, Massachusetts roster restrictions have al lot to do with not offering the competition to Glock which would be why the sales would slant in that direction.

This wasn't a "thing" in the shop I worked so lets just stop that bullshit right there, people got what they wanted. I'm just going to leave it at that.

I realize the marketing power and brand recognition for it. I just think that they'll will lose that in the coming years. Personal opinion due to things I've already stated.

That's cute that you think that, but I'd literally bet 1000 bucks you are wrong, 5 years from now literally not much will have changed. I've been in the game long enough to see what is going on the ground.

Being a former mechanic, I also widely understand the time cost value. I started practicing it in my late 20's. Nothing else like being flat rate will make you learn that real fast.
Which is why I work on my own stuff. That and because I trust no one else to do it.
Never mind paying someone to do something and me getting it back and expecting to be better quality for what I paid. Meaning, that the quality of work doesn't measure up to the money I spent for said service.
I apply the same to anyone working on my car. Won't let anyone do it, unless it's body work or mounting and balancing tires. Because I don't have the space for the equipment to do it.
And even then I hate paying for it because I know how easy it is.

I have people on speed dial that are friends that know way more about gunsmithing than I do. The only reason I work on my guns is the cost time wise of getting the gun to them and back adds to the TCV prop problem. Otherwise its a huge waste of my time for anything advanced. a

What is exactly shitty about an APX?
Because other than the takedown lever being tight, it's just as easy as a Glock.
And in my personal opinion, better in every way except for aftermarket. But, to be honest it doesn't really need it. Maybe a lighter trigger. But that's personal preference.

Shit trigger (every one I tried had a wall with some weird crunchy thing)
Ugly as f*** (although this isn't really even the worst part, I can ignore this, but the market certainly doesn't.... it makes a glock look good, and glocks are ugly)
Gun that will be gone in 10 years because nobody bought it, nobody asked for it. We had to beg people to buy the ones that we bought on a lark.

I don't like buying or working on stuff that is basically a dead end.

 

[DarkJoker33]

I watched a thing where a ZEV gun failed a USPSA box test, done with that brand.

Since im not competition oriented, doesnt that just mean it has to compete in an unlimited class or something?
And has nothing to do with the reliability or performance?

a dealer is ALWAYS going to give you more money for a real Glock

understandable. But only due to recognition in my eyes anyways.

other garbage is a big ?

Wouldnt call all of them garbage

That's cute but absolutely nobody in the real world cares about that gun. I get it, you hipsters like it, good for you. But that doesn't mean its a great product commercially. If I had a gun shop and 10 of those and 10 Glocks, which do you think will be rotting on the shelf in a month or two? I gurantee you there will be more AREX whatever left
behind.

CZ's are more of a hipster gun than Arex's are. Their just a small company. But i think they recently got bought by a conglomerate. them or Grand power.
Either way it just boils down to recognition. and they dont have it yet.

You can accept

i can accept it, i just think they are on a downturn. My opinion.

Many Glock dealers can't even sell blue label to skinflint fags

Even the skinflint cops and current military?

switches? lol. ok.

yes the ever so popular printed or bought of temu item that makes em go braaaap. that market

Theres several varieties of different guns from different vendors to cover most asks of most people.

thats kinda been my point the whole time. Glock is getting beat at their own game right now. Due to the small cloners and other manufactures. When they were brand spanking new, i understand the craze. and admittedly, i havent looked at sales number from then to now with all the new kids on the block and how it affects them. Just a gut feeling

Good, Otherwise nobody would have adopted polymer handguns as readily as they
did.

Hk was already in the polymer game, as they started it. Maybe the usp wouldve been fast tracked. who knows.

Except that most people that bought glocks didnt get a discount. They wanted something different other than the junk they were being fed.

that was the public following suit part that i mentioned. Because thats a pattern in the industry. Whatever LE and Gov gets on board with the public generally follows.
hell, i even fell for it with the M18 and the marketing. learned fast from my own mistake on that one

This wasn't a "thing" in the shop I worked so lets just stop that bullshit right there, people got what they wanted. I'm just going to leave it at that.

sadly, it looks like itll be like that now for the moment. hopefullly itll get kicked in the ass. fear and more is set in to almost all dealers now

hat's cute that you think that, but I'd literally bet 1000 bucks you are wrong, 5 years from now literally not much will have changed.

maybe i am

huge waste of my time for anything advanced

out of curiosity, what would advanced qualify as?

Shit trigger (every one I tried had a wall with some weird crunchy thing)
Ugly as f*** (although this isn't really even the worst part, I can ignore this, but the market certainly doesn't.... it makes a glock look good, and glocks are ugly)
Gun that will be gone in 10 years because nobody bought it, nobody asked for it. We had to beg people to buy the ones that we bought on a lark.

They kinda fixed the the trigger with the competition striker assembly. They recognized that kinda quick half way through production.
And a company just came out with kit recently im looking to eventually get.
Right now i just have the Overwatch precision trigger shoe. Additionally the galloway precision striker assembly in my centurions. Need to get an additional one for the full size along with the dpm recoil system that i have for my centurions and most of my pistols. Are the parts needed, no but i like making things better
Ugly is subjective. I have the first gen Toblerone as its referred to. I like it more than the new gen.
I honestly hope not. Because its a great gun. My favorite striker fired one.