new M16

I found this site this morning. Interesting reading.

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/556mm_ammo.html


There are TWO types of M855 5.56mm Ammo. There is the Lead Free for "CLEAN RANGES" and that is quite possibly what they were trying to issue to us. The web site has diagrams of the cartridges and it is easy to see what I refer to. "Cartridge, 5.56mm, Ball, M855, Lead Free

The M855 "lead free" ball cartridge has a bullet with a conical steel insert and a tungsten composite core in a copper alloy jacket. The intended use is to maintain environmentally "clean" ranges.

The cartridge is identified by a green bullet tip."



"Cartridge, 5.56mm, Ball, M855


The cartridge is used by the M249 machine gun and the M16A2/A3/A4 and M4-series weapons. The cartridge is intended for use against personnel and unarmored targets. This is a training standard item used in both training and combat.

The M855 cartridge has a 62-grain, gilded metal-jacketed, lead alloy core bullet with a steel penetrator. The primer and case are waterproof.

This ammunition should not be used in the M16A1 except under emergency conditions, and only at targets less than 90 meters in distance. (The twist of the M16A1 rifling is not sufficient to stabilize the heavier projectile of the round).

The cartridge is identified by a green bullet tip.

Type Classification: STD - MSR 05826003. Type Classification Date: 1982."
 
WingWiper - You've implied so I'll ask you straight out - when were you in the Corps? When were you on the Team? Who was your coach and OIC, and where were you stationed?

As far as slinging up, you'll notice very little "muzzle droop" except at longer distances and with a very hot barrel. This also has no bearing since all "match" rifles are floated. If 30 round magazines are digging into your arm then you have a bad position.

Your choice of fmj, or ball, ammo is way off base. You say you like to use Lake City Match. LC Match IS a "hollow point". More precisely, it's called Open Tip Match. Its design is not for expansion, rather, it increases the bullets BC. Federal uses the Sierra Hollow Point Boat Tail match bullets from 55 grains in .223 to 200 grains in .308.
 
Tonyd

Points was for the Match Score. Cut off to decide on OPEN CLASS with OLD SHOOTERS. I have Missed the Master Level by ONE POINT MATCH AGGREGATE several times. I am competing against Short Action Bolt Action, with Bubble Levels on thier Front Sights, Web Belts over their barrels etc. I am shooting a M1A Standard Issue with Walnut Stock. Not Points as in the 30 for Distinguished. 20 for Silver or 6 for Bronze.
Like I said, I haven't shot Competitively since 94, things have changed and there isn't much in Precision in the New E.I.C. Matches. Where is the FRONT SWIVEL Mounted on YOUR M16???? It has always been on the Front Barrel with all M16s I have seen. I am referring to Combat Precision Matches, are you referring to Composite???? I have NEVER seen an M16 with a front swivel mounted on anything but the barrel. at the base of the Front Sight Mounting. My Colt AR15 HBAR is a Heavy Barrel Match and my swivel is still on the barrel. I am confused to what you are saying.
I didn't think I had implied I was on The USMC Team, had I? I thought I had said from the beginning Vt State Combat. Oh to clarify that a bit, it is with the VNG and we competed against all 50 staes and Territories and all NATO Countries at Camp Robinson for the Wnston Matches. You compete on State level and then move on to the Army Area Matches and then if you place in the Top Three you move to the ALL ARMY MATCHES in Ft Bening. Competition was against ALL Army Components Active, Reserve and Guard.
I don't use a sling on any yard line and let it hang. It is WORTHLESS. My 100 yard groups were usually covered by a 5 inch spotter. I shot many a 9 V Clean and on once occassion I played a headgame after firing 9 straight Vs and followed it with a MISS at 6 o'clock. I had a 9V 45. I will gladly send you pictures to show you and I have all the Match Bullentins where I can provide evidence of what I said. I sense doubt from you.
 
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Yes, you did. You were on the Base Team and not the USMC Rifle Team. Thanks for clarifying.

Floating IS NOT glass bedding. M16 Team rifles and Most everyone's match AR (including mine) is floated. Nothing touches the barrel past the receiver - including the front swivel.

What is one point below Master? I'm the Service Rifle match director at my club and compete at Benning, Stewart, and Perry (the national matches). NRA doesn't work off of points - only distinguished does.

Nice job on the off-hand scores. However, I would certainly like to see you shoot groups off your feet without slinging up.

Regards
 
Mr Weebles

Please delete my Post Reference, I only posted it for clarification to Tony. I would appreciate it if you delete my quote..
Thanks.

My Brother was Navy, USS Essex.

Tony

My reply is above yours for I deleted my post, As I said it was for your information to respond to your Challenge.
 
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Wingwiper,

[One Moderator's opinion]

WHY delete it? I am not a competitive shooter but it shows me that you have done an excellent job in honing your skills and should be nothing to hide from any of our eyes.

. . . And thanks for your service!
 
Lens

Thanks for the courtesy

I know I am being Challenged before I am to be accepted and therefore, I will toot my own horn only to those I need to. I came to these boards because I love shooting. I own many many guns, have a range on my land, I am still smelling Gunsmoke at the ranges where I am with Range Control and Love it.
Tony is a Marine and I, as being a fellow Marine understand his need to find out who this FNG is trading on his turf. I take no insult from it and rather like it. Pride is Pride no matter what label you put on it.
I just don't want to come across as a FKIA.
I have a lot of Great Shooting Experiences I would like to pas down to the younger shooters. I have tips, and I have info that may help anyone improve their scores. That is why I am here. To talk to people who talk MY language.


Mr Weebles

Thanks for such a Prompt response to my request.
 
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There is no "acceptance", we invite everyone (with a educated opinion, or at least the motivation to learn) to chime in. I have found your posts interesting and informative.
 
No, no reason to delete at all. Although, I'm still a little confused on what type matches you were shooting. It certainly doesn't sound like service rifle - maybe F-Class or any rifle / any sight?

NRA classification is based on the average precentage over a number of matches. Shooting one match above your current classification doesn't bump you up. In fact, most times, if you don't shoot above you classification you won't win.

Maybe you have just been away from the game too long but all catergories in CMP / NRA high power is very much about precision. You should check out a match being held near you.

I'm familiar with the All Army Matches.

Match M16 / Ar15 rifles have a float tube under the hand guards and replaces the barrel nut. The front swivel is removed from the front site base and and attached to the front of the tube. It moves the swivel back approx. 3/8" and eliminates pressure on the barrel from the sling. However, every Marine knows that while qualifying on the range with an issued M16 the 500 yard line was a given "clean".

The I doubt I have is shooting any type decent group from 300 yard rapid fire and farther without slinging up. My 100 yard groups can be covered by a Quarter by simply shooting prone off an ALICE pack but that's not the case in competition.


BTW - I am not issuing a challenge or having a pissing contest, just clarifying so everyone's on the same page.
 
TonyD said:
No, no reason to delete at all. Although, I'm still a little confused on what type matches you were shooting. It certainly doesn't sound like service rifle - maybe F-Class or any rifle / any sight?

We have a NRA SPONSORED High Powered Rifle Match here every year. I shot Colt Cups, and I was member of the Vt ST Combat Rifle Team with the NG for over ten years and we would shoot the AG Match, then WInston, then Forscom, then ALL ARMY. each and every yea. If you shoot the All Army Matches Go to Match HQ and check with MTU to look at Vermont for the 80s and the early 90s. We were the UNDEFEATED TEAM. The TOP TWO Individual Positions in the Army from these Matches are held by Women. Tony Lyn Kirin from Pa with a 73? out of 750 and a Bev Spugin from Wy. I forget which one is first and which one is second.

NRA classification is based on the average precentage over a number of matches. Shooting one match above your current classification doesn't bump you up. In fact, most times, if you don't shoot above you classification you won't win.

I know shooting ONE Match doesn't make the difference. I shot mainly to gain points for the Distinguish Badge. For I had to earn 10 points outside of the Military or something like that.

Maybe you have just been away from the game too long but all catergories in CMP / NRA high power is very much about precision. You should check out a match being held near you.

I did the Bulk of my shooting, shooting Combat Precision Matches and not NRA Matches, I shot very few NRA as compared to Military Competition Matches. I earned most of Points for my Distinguish in Military Matches.


I'm familiar with the All Army Matches.

Good, We shot on Easily and McAndrews over near the Towers. Match HQ was in the Three Story White Wood Buildings near the Ranges. Ahh Yes! Ryan's Steak House on Victory Drive......


Match M16 / Ar15 rifles have a float tube under the hand guards and replaces the barrel nut. The front swivel is removed from the front site base and and attached to the front of the tube. It moves the swivel back approx. 3/8" and eliminates pressure on the barrel from the sling. However, every Marine knows that while qualifying on the range with an issued M16 the 500 yard line was a given "clean".


Every Marine knows that the 500 yard was given CLEAN?" Do we have TWO versions of CLEAN? Clean when I was shooting was ALL 5s and Vs or Out of a possible 50 points, you shot a 50. I would like to see these Marines who shoot Clean Scores on the 500 yd line. I had an M14 issued to me when I wa sin the Corps and even with a Issued M14 CLEANS were rare... 96 out of 100 was common. I am of course talking about UNSUPPORTED. Combat Matches do not allow, Shooting Jackets, or any Support. We had to do a Mag change during Rapid Fire.


The I doubt I have is shooting any type decent group from 300 yard rapid fire and farther without slinging up. My 100 yard groups can be covered by a Quarter by simply shooting prone off an ALICE pack but that's not the case in competition.

No Doubt supported 100 yd Prone can deliver such groups. I am talking Off Hand, no support except your body and I will gladly introduce you to SKELETAL SUPPORT. I did not use a sling at any yard line and when we did use them, they were loose and NOT TIGHT. We fired ISSUED M16 and NOT Composite Match Rifles. You are comparing Composite shooting against Combat and there is a lot of difference. We don't have Shooting Jackets, Mats, Pads, Gloves, Shields for our eyes, although I got away with an EYE PATCH for awhile. We weren't even allowed to have a sweat shirt under our uniforms for the sake of padding and we were NOT allowed to support the weapons on the ground or on any support, including the Magazine.

BTW - I am not issuing a challenge or having a pissing contest, just clarifying so everyone's on the same page.
Click to expand...


No Problem..... I know what Page I am on.
 
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Derek

UNSUPPORTED, Open Sight, Military Issued, No Mods, No Pads, No Mats, No Jackets, Cleans from the 500 yd..... I can do it all day long too, SUPPORTED.. Smile......
 
After reading the entire thread I will just say....

Welcome to the newest users and although I came here as a new user without much knowledge I learn something new everyday thanks to the great peeps here.

So sit back, enjoy, and remember to just have fun with it.
 
derek said:
<------------------- [smile]
Click to expand...

<------- Also,

Hell, even the few guys that would go "unK" typically cleaned (10 for 10) the 500 on the B mod. They went "unk" at the 200. And none were allowed shooting gear during qual's.

Wingwiper - As a Marine I've not shot the All Army Matches, I'm familiar with them. I do shoot on Easly Range several times a year during regular matches and the AMU competes right along with us.

If you would, explain what's involved Combat Precision matches, and the difference between Military Competition and NRA / CMP Service Rifle.
 
derek said:
Tony,

Kevin Marion who? [wink]
Click to expand...

He didn't do quite as well during the individuals this year at Perry as he did last year. But, the Team beat Billy's record from '92. (And, spanked the Army at the inservice just before Perry). CMP has it wrong saying it was the Praslick team but it was actually the Atkins team AMU / reserve.
 

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