piston kits

rkwjunior said:
I don't think the piston retrofit kits (Adams Arms.etc etc) are as well refined as the piston rifles made complete from some of the manufacturers. From the reading i've done about these "kits" they suffer from many of the ailements that pistons are known for having. Those big manufacturers like (LWRC. POF etc. etc.)have worked out all the kinks.
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no put put your words in doubt, but for educational reasons, what are those problems that pistons are known for having?
 
dnepro-mike said:
no put put your words in doubt, but for educational reasons, what are those problems that pistons are known for having?
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The obvious one is "carrier tilt", alot of these kits suffer from this due to inferior built parts to keep down prices, especially the "retrofit kits" These are the cheepest way to own a piston rifle, therefore as always, you get what u pay for. Also, piston guns have more moving parts that can fail over time. PWS stopped making retrofit kits for this exact reason. These are some of the reasons some people don't trust, or like the piston platform, other than the "don't fix it if it aint broke thing" Going with a complete upper from one of the big names is probably going to be worth the money over time, I'm not saying a retrofit kit is a complete piece of crap either, its just a cheeper alternative with a possible shorter life span.
 
I just put the AA kit in my recent build and know for a fact carrier tilt has been addressed. My rifle shows no wear "yet". I would also disagree with the "inferior parts" argument as my kit is built very well with robust parts. I have not noticed the inferiority or cheap parts. Unless you own or have owned the kits or parts I don't believe anyone can really comment on build quality of these kits. Most people get their info from the Internet. And everyone knows you can't lie on the Internet. I tend to believe first hand user accounts on things like that and everything else is taken with a grain of salt including everything I say.
 
JCat said:
I don't know much about piston systems, but I thought they added at least a little bit of weight to the rifle. Can someone comment on whether this is true or not?
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What is there to think about? Yes, you are adding parts that were not there before, so weight goes up. How much? IDK, don't care. It can't be that much.
 
fishhawk357 said:
I just put the AA kit in my recent build and know for a fact carrier tilt has been addressed. My rifle shows no wear "yet". I would also disagree with the "inferior parts" argument as my kit is built very well with robust parts. I have not noticed the inferiority or cheap parts. Unless you own or have owned the kits or parts I don't believe anyone can really comment on build quality of these kits. Most people get their info from the Internet. And everyone knows you can't lie on the Internet. I tend to believe first hand user accounts on things like that and everything else is taken with a grain of salt including everything I say.
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I'm not saying your system is crap or "will" have issues. But more likely??? probably!
 
I should have my head examined for wading into this morass. But here it goes.

Just some observations and thoughts, no judgements.

While on the primaryweapons.com site, I noticed that their piston rifles have a long stroke piston system like the Garand and the AK.
Not a short stroke system like the M1 Carbine and most AR conversions.
Just a data point for what its worth.


I have no personal experience with piston ARs, but here are some thoughts on my DI ARs.

1) shooting suppressed - I get a lot of gas in my face. I'm left handed and it really sucks. If I add a shell deflector to the upper it helps.
A piston could definitely help here from a comfort perspective. There aren't any reliability issues with DI and suppressors. In fact, by lengthening the gas dwell time
on my 10.5" SBR, it should theoretically help things.

Reliability - My guns were always kept pretty clean and I'd always lube them liberally before shooting. All my
bolts have some kind of upgraded extractor spring. I had shot ARs for years and never EVER had any kind of malfunction. My basic plinking ammo was Wolf and I never had any problems with it.
This included 3 gun matches and club level pin matches.

Then I took my first carbine course a few years ago and I began to experience things that I had never experienced before.
I had never run my rifle hard enough so it got hot. Really hot. I did in this class and I began to have problems with the wolf
chambering after about 400 rounds. I pulled out my chamber brush, hosed it off in CLP and worked the chamber for a minute during a break.
The gun then ran fine on wolf for another 100 rounds and then began to have the same problems. Failure to extract, failure to chamber.
At one point I was banging the butt on the ground while trying to stroke the charging handle to free the stuck round. It worked.

The chamber was getting tight again.

As an aside, the upper in question is a LMT factory stock 10.5" upper with a LMT BCG.

So by then it was lunch time and I decided to give the chamber a good cleaning. The BCG and the rest of the upper were soaking wet, which is good and I saw no reason to change that. So they were left wet and dirty.

After working the chamber for about 3 minutes with the chamber brush, I stuck in a chamber fluffy thing and then hit it a couple of times with a bore snake and pronounced it done.

For the afternoon I switched to lake city 55 gr XM193 and the gun ran flawlessly. FLAWLESSLY for another 400 rounds.
For the second day of the class I cleaned the gun reasonably well and left the BCG nice and wet. That day I went another 700 rounds without any cleaning or problems.

So . . . what does this mean. Well, if you feed your rifle what it was meant to run on they seem to be very reliable even when run hot and hard.

Prior to running the carbine class I had never had any trouble with wolf. (the rifle generally stayed pretty cool) But then again I had never run the gun to the point where my bare hand
could not touch the upper mag well.

So there it is. No rash pronouncements. Just one man's experience. Hopefully nobody will find a reason to flame. ha.
 
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No first hand experience, but in discussing an upper project with White Oak, their opinion is that the piston setup adds weight to a full floating barrel and you cannot get as accurate a setup as you can with just a gas tube. Didn't get into details, but that was enough for me to stick with just the gas tube on my project.

I guess it depends on your expected use.


Telepathically uploaded via my iPhone 13.
 
I'm looking to get a piston AR. The main reason is not that I think they are more reliable just that I want to build/buy a SBR and already have DI's in 5.56 and 6.8 so want something different. They do run cleaner and cooler but unless you shoot a hell of a lot its not a big deal. I guess you could say that the SEALS use a HK piston AR and that says something being as they test and get what they want not what the government just issues. Not that any of us need what they need just saying they obviously have confidence in that system. Been looking at some Adam Arms complete SBR uppers and they look kinda cool as I'm not sure about conversion kits.

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Inmo, there is nothing wrong with the tried and proven DI system, but if you really want a piston AR then there is no good reason not to get one, but I would recommend just getting a well designed, top tier factory built model and not waste the money on a conversion kit since you will likely make your gun less reliable in the long run. If you have the budget, do it the right way and don't look back, if you can't afford a factory built model, then you will be best served with DI. This is inmo and your mmv...
 
Terminator03 said:
Inmo, there is nothing wrong with the tried and proven DI system, but if you really want a piston AR then there is no good reason not to get one, but I would recommend just getting a well designed, top tier factory built model and not waste the money on a conversion kit since you will likely make your gun less reliable in the long run. If you have the budget, do it the right way and don't look back, if you can't afford a factory built model, then you will be best served with DI. This is inmo and your mmv...
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Or just sink what ever money it would cost for a bottle of this snake oil into ammo, and shoot the ever living piss out of the gun you already have.
 
edmorseiii said:
Or just sink what ever money it would cost for a bottle of this snake oil into ammo, and shoot the ever living piss out of the gun you already have.
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I'm on that page as well, but I don't want to rain on the op's parade if he really wants a piston AR. Just wanted to steer him in the correct direction if he has the budget for that. I'm with you, though, and would much rather spend the extra money either on ammo, better optics, trigger group, barrel, etc. etc. as I feel that any of those upgrades are money way better spent.[wink]
 
I personally would not get a conversion kit for my ar-15 since a cleaner system doesn't necessarily makes the gun more reliable, especially since the ar-15 was designed to be a DI system. I like the idea of a gas piston system, but if I am going to get one, it will most likely be a rifle that was designed to use a gas piston system and not a conversion kit. I am sure there are some good conversion kits out there, but I don't think I would get one myself.
 
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The goal of this thread was a good discussion on the matter of piston and DI, which in relativity it was. I am will be spending my hard earned dollars next on an upgraded trigger group or trigger work to the factory parts, and a comp/brake as my sport does not have one.

Dom
 
THESAW249 said:
The goal of this thread was a good discussion on the matter of piston and DI, which in relativity it was. I am will be spending my hard earned dollars next on an upgraded trigger group or trigger work to the factory parts, and a comp/brake as my sport does not have one.

Dom
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Dom, for trigger, I would suggest getting the Geisselle (sp?) SSA, which is the semi-auto version of what the SEALS use in their rifles. It is a 2 stage that is super smooth, light trigger without being too light (if that makes any sense), and has a very clean second stage break. They make an "enhanced" version called the SSA-E, but some say it is too light for duty use, or HD so most people recommend the regular version as the best all around trigger. It is worth trying because if you find you don't like it for whatever reason, you can throw it on the classifieds here, or on ARFCOM and it will be gone in minutes for almost what you paid, if not just as much in some cases. Super easy top install too, literally takes 2 minutes with nothing but a small 1/8" punch.
 
I installed the Geissele SSA-E in my rifle and don't find it to be excessively light. Dom, if your close enough, you are welcome to come shoot my rifle so you can both try out the trigger and check out the piston kit. That way you can try before you buy. I also installed a Shrewd muzzle brake on my rifle which I find to really reduce muzzle climb an it is not overly loud at all. It actually works as advertised. Not traditional but it works for me.
 
thanks for the offer fishhawk, but i am in berkshire county! very out there for most [laugh] a friend of mine is interested in giving me a decent deal on some trigger groups, i may wait til tax time to spring for any more goodies. really want the daniel defense omega handguard!

not being traditional is a good thing!

Dom
 
1903Collector said:
Isn't a Sig 556 a piston system? buy one of those and be done with it!
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If I were really concerned about an AR breaking down in the middle of zOMG!!!1SHTFEOTWAWKILULZ MUDz IN MY GAS SYSTEM, CARBONz IN MY FCG!!!!1111, yes, I think I would consider one of those if I couldn't afford a SCAR.

But I am not a 'tard, and I will most likely get suicided by the state before I get to that point, so I am good with my DI AR's.
 
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I like the easy cleanup of the piston system. The one I have is very accurate, runs clean, and dependable. That being said, I WOULD NOT dump money into a conversion or pay a ton extra for one, the trade-off is not worth it. I got a good deal on mine and love the hell out of it. If it cost more than $100 over a DI, I would not mess with it. If it does not cost that much extra, then go for it.. but I sure as hell would not spend the extra cash to retro-fit one.. that is wasting money and asking for problems IMHO.
 
edmorseiii said:
If I were really concerned about an AR breaking down in the middle of zOMG!!!1SHTFEOTWAWKILULZ MUDz IN MY GAS SYSTEM, CARBONz IN MY FCG!!!!1111, yes, I think I would consider one of those if I couldn't afford a SCAR.

But I am not a 'tard, I will most likely get suicided by the state before I get to that point, so I am good with me DI AR's.
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I'm with you...no need to re-invent the wheel.
 

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