Police want bullet in teen's forehead

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http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/12/21/teen.bullet.ap/index.html

Police want bullet in teen's forehead​



PORT ARTHUR, Texas (AP) -- In the middle of Joshua Bush's forehead, two inches above his eyes, lies the evidence that prosecutors say could send the teenager to prison for attempted murder: a 9 mm bullet, lodged just under the skin.

Prosecutors say it will prove that Bush, 17, tried to kill the owner of a used-car lot after a robbery in July. And they have obtained a search warrant to extract the slug.

But Bush and his lawyer are fighting the removal, in a legal and medical oddity that raises questions about patient privacy and how far the government can go to solve crimes without running afoul of the constitutional protection against unreasonable searches and seizures.

"It's unfortunate this arguably important piece of evidence is in a place where it can't be easily retrieved," said Seth Chandler, a professor at the University of Houston Law Center. "You have to balance our desire to convict the guilty against the government not poking around our bodies on a supposition."

Investigators say that Bush was part of a group of gang members who broke into a used car lot and tried to steal vehicles. According to police, Bush tried to shoot businessman Alan Olive, and when Olive returned fire, a bullet struck the teenager and burrowed into the soft, fatty tissue of his forehead.

Prosecutor Ramon Rodriguez said gang members who took part in the robbery identified Bush as one of those involved. When he was questioned about a week later, Bush admitted taking part in the robbery but not the shooting, police said.

"The officers noticed the guy looks like hell. One of his eyes is black and he has a big old knot on his forehead," Rodriguez said. "He tells police he got hurt playing basketball."

A few days later, Bush went to the hospital and told doctors he had been hit by a stray bullet as he sat on a couch in an apartment.

"Officers started putting events together," Rodriguez said.

A judge took the unusual step of issuing a search warrant to retrieve the bullet from Bush's head in October.

But a Beaumont doctor determined that small pieces of bone were growing around the slug, and he did not have the proper tools in the emergency room to do it. The doctor said that removal would require surgery under general anesthesia and that no operating rooms were available.

Police then obtained a second search warrant and scheduled the operation for last week at the University of Texas Medical Branch hospital in Galveston. It was postponed again, however, after the hospital decided not to participate for reasons it would not discuss.

Prosecutors said they continue to look for a doctor or hospital willing to remove the bullet.

All sides agree that removing the bullet would not be life-threatening. But Bush's family and attorney say it would be a violation of the teenager's civil rights and set a dangerous precedent.

"When the medical profession divorces itself from its own responsibility and makes itself an arm of the state, it's a dangerous path," said Rife Kimler, Bush's lawyer.

The used car lot owner, Olive, told police that after officers had left the scene following the robbery and he began cleaning up, a man appeared in a nearby alley and threatened to kill him if he helped authorities in their investigation. The man fired at Olive and a shootout followed.

"I just can't believe I missed him at that distance," Olive, a competitive pistol shooter, said in court papers. Olive told authorities he never saw the man's face in the dark alley.

Bush is in jail on charges related to the robbery, but not the shooting.

Tammie Bush, the teen's mother, disputed allegations her son is a gang member.

"We know he's not a criminal," she said. "He's a good kid."

Dr. Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, predicted Bush's rights as a patient will trump the state's desire to get the bullet, and said authorities might have a hard time finding someone willing to extract the slug.

"It truly is a moral quandary," Caplan said. "Doctors are caught between wanting to help solve crimes and their responsibility to patients' rights to refuse a procedure."

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
Click to expand...
 
Tammie Bush, the teen's mother, disputed allegations her son is a gang member.

"We know he's not a criminal," she said. "He's a good kid."
Click to expand...

Yep. All the good, clean-cut kids I know end up with a bullet in their forehead.
 
"When the medical profession divorces itself from its own responsibility and makes itself an arm of the state, it's a dangerous path," said Rife Kimler, Bush's lawyer.
Click to expand...
Why not use the State's ME to take it out[smile]
 
dwarven1 said:
Just gotta wonder, though... was this guy carrying low-power reloads? Or did the bullet ricochet? Guess we won't know unless they can extract it.
Click to expand...

I was wondering the same thing. My guess:

A "reduced recoil" "personal protection" hollowpoint that fully expanded when it hit his thick skull. That would explain the part about it being too hard to remove because bone was growing around it.
 
It's going to be tough to get this done, since there is always a pre-surgical meeting between the patient and surgeon as well as with the anethesiologist, not to mention the nurse who will start the IV, as well as the nurse or technologist who takes a blood sample as part of the pre-surgical workup.

Assuming this person says "I do not consent to this procedure" to each of these people, it's going to be tough to get them to do the procedure. The only choice may be for the judge to jail this person for contempt until he consents.
 
In most states people do not need to be licensed to buy firearms or ammunition. Assuming that he has a prior felony conviction, however...
 
while not the same as this case, back when Dad was Police chief (in the 70's)
a local bussnessman lost it and shot a passing car. the bullet lodged in a disabled kids leg and he paid off the family so they refused to have it removed so the DA would not press charges.
 
fuuny how the kids are always "good kids" who "were never in trouble before"
if so then how come theres a bullet lodged in his forehead?tell me the answer to that mom.
 
Honetly I can't imgaine the bullet being that damning in the trial. At least any more than this reject's constantly changing story. We're talking about a fully deformed projectile that is appoximatly the same size as the majority of bullets. We all know that ballistic fingerprinting is a bogus art, and that even if they find similar marks, or disimilar marks, it really can't point conclusivly to the EXACT gun that fired the round.

Worse yet, how can you deturmine the exact size and shape of the round in this case? Could be from a 9mm Luger, 9mm Markarov, .380 Auto, .38 special. The only thing I can think of that could be useful is if the Car Salesman was using some name-brand ammo. You could see stuff like the jacket, or the central post of a hydrashok, or the Gold Dot on a Gold Dot.

But I doubt he was using the top-shelf stuff, otherwise the bullet would have been removed by the coronor.

-Weer'd
 
Weer'd Beard said:
But I doubt he was using the top-shelf stuff, otherwise the bullet would have been removed by the coronor.
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure about that. Some of the "top-shelf" stuff, particularly in the minor calibers like 9mm, is billed as "reduced-recoil", which is a euphemism for lower-velocity. Given that many of these rounds (like Hydrashocks) stress expansion over penetration, I can see one flattening out when it hit his apparently thick skull.

The scant medical description seems to back this up - if it were a round of hardball sitting under the skin, I'd be able to safely remove the thing with a pen knife. However, picture a jagged, flower-shaped, fully expanded jacketed round semi-embedded in the surface of his skull (where "small pieces of bone were growing around the slug") and you can see why an emergency room doc would balk at prying it out of there.

There's not a lot to go on in the article, but it did say that Olive (the shooter) was a "competitive pistol shooter" so it is likely that his carry gun was loaded with some kind of defensive ammo. I'll bet a week's pay that he's since switched brands.
 
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Maybe the douchebag will die of lead poisoning from all the exposed lead in contact with his bloodstream.
 
If this incident occurred in Massachusetts, the DA would quite possibly grant immunity for the shootee if he agreed to undergo the bulletectomy so the slug could be used as evidence against the defender. That sounds like an exaggeration, but I am not convinced such an outcome would be less than probable.
 
Weer'd Beard said:
Honetly I can't imgaine the bullet being that damning in the trial. At least any more than this reject's constantly changing story. We're talking about a fully deformed projectile that is appoximatly the same size as the majority of bullets. We all know that ballistic fingerprinting is a bogus art, and that even if they find similar marks, or disimilar marks, it really can't point conclusivly to the EXACT gun that fired the round.
Click to expand...

If they have the rest of the ammo the defender had in his pistol, they could
easily use a GC/MS process to at least prove that the bullets (or jacketing, if
still intact) has a chemical composition that is very close to the rest of the
ammo the defender was carrying. While such processing isn't cheap, its
possible their lab has access to such equipment. (keep in mind that
often times a bullet is more than just 100% pure Pb and Cu ).

-Mike
 
EddieCoyle said:
I'm not so sure about that. Some of the "top-shelf" stuff, particularly in the minor calibers like 9mm, is billed as "reduced-recoil", which is a euphemism for lower-velocity. Given that many of these rounds (like Hydrashocks) stress expansion over penetration, I can see one flattening out when it hit his apparently thick skull.
Click to expand...

Not all HS loadings are that wimpy... but I know what you're getting
at. That crappy 135gn load that fed sells in the small plastic box could
be a problem WRT this stuff.

It's also possible this guy just has an exceptionally thick skull, which would
explain the reason he was shot at to begin with.

When I did some research on wound ballistics and the like, there were
way more bullet vs skull failures with .380 and .38 SPL... those seemed to
be the recurring offenders WRT lack of skull penetration. In one case
a person tried to commit suicide with a 38 snub and the bullet traveled
underneath the skin on the guys skull and came out near his other
ear, failing to penetrate the brain.

-Mike
 
dwarven1 said:
Or shoot twice... if he's worth one bullet, he's worth two.
Click to expand...

+1. All calibers, even bullets fired from rifles, can "fail" to produce the
desired effect. Anything worth shooting once is generally worth shooting
twice (or more!) at a minimum.


-Mike
 
drgrant said:
Anything worth shooting once is generally worth shooting
twice (or more!) at a minimum.


-Mike
Click to expand...

I agree however if the kid fled (like most would do if they had a bullet lodged in their head and could still move) he couldn't have shot again at his back because then he is the bad guy for shooting someone who was no longer a threat to him.
 
DietCola said:
I agree however if the kid fled (like most would do if they had a bullet lodged in their head and could still move) he couldn't have shot again at his back because then he is the bad guy for shooting someone who was no longer a threat to him.
Click to expand...

Problem is, how do you tell the difference between "fleeing" and "running for
cover to resume firing at the target"? What if he suddenly turns and starts
firing at you again? (If you can't immediately take cover, this is a serious concern).

Course I don't know what the range the confrontation had occurred at,
either. This guy may have been a good shot, but the range and lighting
was tough, add in a ton of stress and you get misses. Maybe he -did-
fire multiple shots in rapid succession and only one of them connected.

Also keep in mind that this occurred in TX, so the deadly force laws
are probably a lot more lenient than they are here. In MA it appears
you have to be cornered and already lost a pint of blood before the
court will say you were justified (may not be true, but sometimes it feels
like that's how bad the DF laws are here) and basically in MA just about any
defender that ends up taking a perps life gets arrested and charged with
murder, until proven otherwise, because the liberal DA/prosecutor types
assume that anyone using deadly force is guilty, regardless of
circumstances.

Additionally, a "back shot" is not an instant death sentence, so to speak, either.. it occurs
all the time by accident with LEOs. Police may be firing at a perp, but he whips around or changes
direction drastically, and they're shooting at his back, but until a few shots have gone by they don't
notice it. (EG, the perp whipping around occurs -inside- the span of the shooter's OODA loop, so what
ends up happening is the perp moves before the shooter realizes that the perp's back is facing him, which
means invariably, the shooter will have launched a couple of pieces of lead into someone's back, even if
he didn't intend to shoot the guy in the back. )

-Mike
 
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drgrant said:
Problem is, how do you tell the difference between "fleeing" and "running for cover to resume firing at the target"? What if he suddenly turns and starts firing at you again? (If you can't immediately take cover, this is a serious concern).
Click to expand...

Real simple call. If he drops the gun as he takes off, he's fleeing. OTOH, if it's still in his hot little hand, then he's an immediate threat regardless of whether he's moving, standing still, lying down, rolling around, crawling, whatever; he's still an immediate threat and should be addressed accordingly, regardless of whether you have cover available.

Ken
 
KMaurer said:
Real simple call. If he drops the gun as he takes off, he's fleeing. OTOH, if it's still in his hot little hand, then he's an immediate threat regardless of whether he's moving, standing still, lying down, rolling around, crawling, whatever; he's still an immediate threat and should be addressed accordingly, regardless of whether you have cover available.

Ken
Click to expand...

Sounds like words to live by! +1!

And I think Living was on the Top of this guy's list!

-Weer'd Beard
 

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