Practical Implications of H4885 for Purchasing and Possessing

[pastera]

Lets disect the 2016 language and the edict. The edict said ALL post 94 ARs are copies or duplicates. ALL. They will not prosecute any owned as of the date of the edict. How nice.

So lets take this as ground truth. If true, then ALL ARs post 94 are NOT lawfully possessed in MA on 8/1. The new law has not taken effect. So under the current law and the Healey edict ALL ARs are copies or duplicates so therefore assault weapons. FULL STOP. They are not grandfathered as they are not lawfully possessed on 8/1.


The language in the new bill says PRE 7/20/2016 are not copies or duplicates. Sad because a lot of guns sold ON 7/20/2016. But ok, they are not copies or duplicates AS OF 10/23/24 when the new law takes effect. But they DO have to pass the feature tests and essentially all fail. So how does any of this 2016 language in the new bill matter? It does not.

Grandfathering is based on TODAYS law and lawfully possessing 8/1. If you believe in Healey EVERYTHING is unlawful so nothing is grandfathered. If you ignore Healey than as long as its compliant with the actual AWB it is grandfathered. Nothing in the new law is part of the evaluation because 8/1 is hard coded and the new law does not take effect until 10/23.

So ALL the GOAL and Guida analysis is logically inconsistent because the only conclusion is that everything ILLEGAL or everything is LEGAL regardless of 2016 date. You cant have it half way.

I subscribe to its all legal.

Concur with all of what you said however assuming transaction portal = registration in 2016 the following is true.
A registered pre 7/20 C&D is exempt from consideration of the incurable C&D status once this law is in effect.
Therefore those guns are now only considered ASF if they fail some other test like features - so a features compliant AR in the database pre2016 would be legal as it wouldn't be an ASW (no features and exempt from C&D).
Both 131m and the new ASW designation become active simultaneously.
And ASF is not the same as AW (which looses meaning they instant ASF gains meaning)

 

[CrackPot]

Take a deep breath:

131M(b): (banning ASFs)



The green part is a whole clause. It must be lawfully possessed in Mass on 8/1/24.

Then there's the second bit, in black. in this case "shall" means "will be in the future, when the registration database exists", and not "as of 8/1/24. That big red semicolon is really important. It separates the green part which has a specific date attached, from the black part, which doesn't.

When §121B and §121C become law on 10/23, only then is the black part relevant. Not 8/2, but 10/24. And even then, the system of registration laid out in §121B doesn't have to exist for up to a year, and then registration doesn't have to happen until a year after that.

Read this:




The new law says it has to be lawfully owned on 8/1. You got that covered. It also says it has it has to be registered under §121B... eventually.

You keep this up we will have to give you your own thread . Excellent analysis

 

[MAJoe]

Does my logic in this reply follow your interpretation @CrackPot, RE 80% and similar builds? Assume frames that do not fail the new assault weapon test.

Frame FA-10 in light of upcoming vote on H.4139

Group P80 and engrave buy?

www.northeastshooters.com

 

[CrackPot]

Does my logic in this reply follow your interpretation @CrackPot, RE 80% and similar builds? Assume frames that do not fail the new assault weapon test.

Frame FA-10 in light of upcoming vote on H.4139

Group P80 and engrave buy?

www.northeastshooters.com

Clear as mud. I am recommending to people that they serialize their unserialized (future) guns NOW so that they can put anything they want. Once 10/23 rolls around you have to serialize based on the states new rules. So even if its an 80%, get it engraved now. You can call it model f***MAURA and serial LINSKYISGAY or whatever makes you happy. After 10/22 you have to put something stupid provided by the state.

@EddieCoyle is your guy for getting it engraved

This is all based on the assumption you are planning to comply with the wall. If not, carry on.

 

[milktree]

You keep this up we will have to give you your own thread . Excellent analysis

Only if it's heavily moderated and more like a FAQ than a thread.

 

[MAJoe]

Clear as mud. I am recommending to people that they serialize their unserialized (future) guns NOW so that they can put anything they want. Once 10/23 rolls around you have to serialize based on the states new rules. So even if its an 80%, get it engraved now. You can call it model f***MAURA and serial LINSKYISGAY or whatever makes you happy. After 10/22 you have to put something stupid provided by the state.

@EddieCoyle is your guy for getting it engraved

This is all based on the assumption you are planning to comply with the wall. If not, carry on.

Understood, thanks.

 

[wcorey]

Clear as mud. I am recommending to people that they serialize their unserialized (future) guns NOW so that they can put anything they want. Once 10/23 rolls around you have to serialize based on the states new rules. So even if its an 80%, get it engraved now. You can call it model f***MAURA and serial LINSKYISGAY or whatever makes you happy. After 10/22 you have to put something stupid provided by the state.

@EddieCoyle is your guy for getting it engraved

This is all based on the assumption you are planning to comply with the wall. If not, carry on.

After 10/22, having been serialized previously, how do you qualify when it was serialized?
The 'voluntary portal'?

 

[pastera]

After 10/22, having been serialized previously, how do you qualify when it was serialized?
The 'voluntary portal'?

You don't need to qualify - if you have something manufactured with a serial number on that date that's what you register
If you have something without a serial on that date then you are under the new serial number requirement which forces a state supplied number on you.

 

[DJBrad]

Clear as mud. I am recommending to people that they serialize their unserialized (future) guns NOW so that they can put anything they want. Once 10/23 rolls around you have to serialize based on the states new rules. So even if its an 80%, get it engraved now. You can call it model f***MAURA and serial LINSKYISGAY or whatever makes you happy. After 10/22 you have to put something stupid provided by the state.

@EddieCoyle is your guy for getting it engraved.

This is all based on the assumption you are planning to comply with the wall. If not, carry on.

Perfect. I have some stellar serial number ideas.

 

[Jenska22]

Perfect. I have some stellar serial number ideas.

0001, 0002, 0003, ....... only have to be unique to ME, not anyone else (yet)

 

[DJBrad]

0001, 0002, 0003, ....... only have to be unique to ME, not anyone else (yet)

Emojis as serial numbers.

 

[Jenska22]

Emojis as serial numbers.

there ARE 'others'

 

[Jeffaah]

Not quoting the acutal language, but summarizing

rifles are mostly screwed by copy or duplicate language. All ARs, All AKs, all lots of stuff. So if we are talking something else, then the key elements are
handguard and pistol grip. You get one. The other features are less common or could be worked around. rimfire not subject to a feature test

shotguns are actually no horrible. FUDD shotguns are fine even if semi. pistol grip and mag is bad but that is already true. really no material change that matters

pistols. What was illegal still is. added VFG or other foregrip below the barrel as a feature. Desert Eagles with threaded barrels were illegal but no longer are since the 50oz test is gone. That is the only "upside" to this.

There is always the language, but in general the bottom line is forget all enumerated weapons and their copies or duplicates and forget any modern semi auto center fire rifle based on features.

Crackpot.

So I have a fixed mag ar pistol. I used a jc arms fixed mag lower because of the 50oz rule.

Under the new law with no 50oz rule can I simply make the mag removable and be ok…assuming the brace and muzzle device are pinned?

 

[Jeffaah]

How does this law effect existing unserialized 80% pistols that are built and fa-10’d.

 

[MAJoe]

How does this law effect existing unserialized 80% pistols that are built and fa-10’d.

They will need a serial number once that section is in effect. See my post above. There’s no “grandfather” for previous builds without serials.

 

[MAJoe]

Crackpot.

So I have a fixed mag ar pistol. I used a jc arms fixed mag lower because of the 50oz rule.

Under the new law with no 50oz rule can I simply make the mag removable and be ok…assuming the brace and muzzle device are pinned?

Those requirements go away when the new law is in effect on 10/23 if you lawfully own it on 8/1.

 

[DJBrad]

There’s no “grandfather” for previous builds without serials.

Is this because it didn’t go through an ffl or was manufactured as thus?

 

[nm1]

Crackpot.

So I have a fixed mag ar pistol. I used a jc arms fixed mag lower because of the 50oz rule.

Under the new law with no 50oz rule can I simply make the mag removable and be ok…assuming the brace and muzzle device are pinned?

I would think that being “fixed mag” and therefore not failing the “assault style weapon “ test it would not be ‘grandfathered’ and therefore not legal to revert to a true AR pistol.

 

[Jeffaah]

Those requirements go away when the new law is in effect on 10/23 if you lawfully own it on 8/1.

Treat me like I’m stupid.

So on 10/23 I can make it detachable mag and rock on? Does it still need a pin a weld?

 

[MAJoe]

I would think that being “fixed mag” and therefore not failing the “assault style weapon “ test it would not be ‘grandfathered’ and therefore not legal to revert to a true AR pistol.

You make a good point. @Jeffaah I’ll shut up and wait for Crackpot to jump in.

 

[Bud R]

Pardon the new thread. The main thread is cluttered and putting this in one clean post as a summary I am hoping is helpful. I don’t believe in Healey and I think GOAL has its head up it’s ass on a number of issues and this reflects that



Practical implications of H4885 for purchasing and possessing

A billion “but what about me?” questions in the main thread so I figure giving a single post describing what to buy when might help.


The new law was signed on 7/25/24 according to the press release. It was done so without an emergency preamble. This means NOTHING CHANGES until it goes into effect on 10/23/24. All current laws are in effect unchanged until 10/23/24.

You can buy anything currently legal. This means any/all off roster handguns via frame transfer. This means any/all semi auto rifles or shotguns with compliance done. This means any/all frames or receivers of potential assault-style weapons. You can do this until 10/23/24.

BUT only items possessed lawfully ON (not before, on) 8/1/24 are grandfathered from being unlawful ASWs once the new law takes effect. So while you can continue to purchase AR lowers, for example, through 10/23/24, only ones lawfully possessed on 8/1/24 will continue to be legal.


So there is no rush to buy right now EXCEPT that which will be an ASW once the new law goes into effect. The rush to buy is all the ARs and similar evil semi auto rifles and shotguns that you need to get by 8/1 to be grandfathered. So buy these by midnight on Thursday 8/1. Regular off roster handguns or non CMR compliant handguns like glocks or most CZs, etc you can skip buying for now and get anytime before 10/23/24.



Now, what about all the cool stuff I now own that I need to be grandfathered. Do I register my lowers? What do I need to do? The short answer is NOTHING. The law says you need to lawfully possess on 8/1. It also says it must be registered in accordance with 121B and serialized in accordance with 121C.

121B is the NEW state wide database where every gun in the state must be registered. The state has one year to implement. Once implemented every transaction must be validated in the system and the gun registered to the new owner and unregistered from the old owner. Everyone will have another year to register everything they currently own. You will need to register what you have before you can transact it to sell if you sell before the one year and have not yet registered it. This is 121B.

You cannot register anything today to satisfy this requirement. Today we have a database of transactions, not a database of registered guns and owners. YOU DO NOT NEED TO “REGISTER” BEFORE 8/2 to be in compliance with the new law or prove anything. The fact that you recorded a transaction in the current system PROVES nothing.

You can/should follow the current law. If you “purchase or obtain” a firearm, rifle or shotgun from other than a Ma dealer, LTC holder or fid holder, then record the transaction within seven days of “purchasing or obtaining”. Do this to be legal with today’s law, not because it is in anyway needed for the new law. It does nothing relative to the new law and the future 121B which might not take effect until late 2025.

For the state to successfully charge you with a violation of the new 131M ASW violation, the burden of proof is on them to prove that the firearm was NOT lawfully possessed by a MA dealer or LTC holder on 8/1/24. Prove a negative. Good luck. In practice they run a trace request with the ATF. It will show when manufactured, when sold to the distributor, when sold to the dealer and when the 4473 transferred it to a person. If it was manufactured after 8/1/24 then you are in trouble. But if they can’t prove it could have been in the state lawfully on 8/1, they are done. In most cases there will be a 4473 showing you bought it on or before 8/1 because you did. In summary if you lawfully own it on 8/1, you are good.

Some other things go bump on 10/23/24. If you have only a FID anything semi auto you own is now illegal for you to have. This is the single biggest taking in the new law and should be an easy challenge in court. But assuming no court action, all FID holders must get rid of their semi auto guns before 10/23/24. Yup, you are getting screwed. This also hits all the FUDDs with FIDs with Ruger mini 14s and 10/22s.

On 10/23 dealers will longer be able to sell ANYTHING not on the roster. This includes all rifles, shotguns, machine guns, frames, and receivers. Yup, when it takes effect we can sell on roster handguns and nothing else. Until they add each and every possible bolt gun, pump shot gun, lever rifle, etc, we cannot sell them even though they are perfectly legal to have. Another major insanity of the new law ans kikely a mistake. They made all firearms subject to the roster in 123 (o). This was the same in the old law when a “firearm” was a not rifle or shotgun. Not a firearm is a pistol, rifle, shotgun, machine gun etc. Failing to change this language took out all sales except what is on the current handgun roster. Another easy court challenge but these take time.

So it you need a nice new shotgun to hunt this year, get it before 10/23 since dealers can no longer sell you anything.

Summary

Buy ARs and related future evil guns before 8/2. Follow the current law. Don’t “register” stuff because you think it is required or helps with the new law.

Buy everything else you want before 10/23 because dealers won’t be able to sell anything after that except boring on roster handguns.

Write letters to your state senator and rep asking why they banned you from buying a new pump shotgun for hunting turkeys this year.

FID holders get rid of all your semi auto long guns before 10/23



Side note. What about Healey and 7/20/2016. This is a red hearing. If the gun is lawful now it’s still lawful. If you think the press conference on 7/20/16 made things magically illegal, then ok, they are illegal. Otherwise the language in the new law just makes pre 7/20/16 guns that you owned and registered (side not saying registered here in the new law is impossible since we don’t have registration proving that they don’t even understand the laws we have) BEFORE 7/20/16 NOT a copy or duplicate. They are still subject to the feature test which they will fail so all grandfathering comes from the 8/1 language in 131M. And it says BEFORE. All the guns people rushed to buy ON 7/20/16 don’t count. Ha. Stupid.

It adds up to a nothing burger. If it’s legal on 8/1 it’s still legal after the new law. The Healey language changes nothing. Maybe it makes your gun MORE legal, but I can’t come up with an actual example that it impacts. Healey sycophants like Jason Guida says it proves Healey was right and all post 2016 are illegal. Bah.

Thank you for the clarifications Sir. Appreciated

 

[MAJoe]

Is this because it didn’t go through an ffl or was manufactured as thus?

Because it was made without a serial number. The only guns that don’t require serial numbers going forward are:

(g) The requirements of this section shall not apply to firearms: (i) being delivered to law enforcement for the sole purpose of their destruction; (ii) possessed by common carriers and their duly authorized employees and agents while performing the regular and ordinary transport of firearms as merchandise for customers licensed to permit such transport; (iii) possessed by individuals lawfully traveling through the commonwealth in the care and custody of a nonresident owner provided that the firearms are stored in accordance with sections 131C and 131L; (iv) that are the property of the government of the United States; (v) produced by federally licensed manufacturers not for sale in the commonwealth; or (vi) manufactured prior to October 22, 1968.

 

[cockpitbob]

Every once in a while I take a step back and evaluate things from a stranger's perspective. This discussion we are having is absolutely insane. Our freedom depends on a hundred poorly defined, fussy little details about dates, harmless features and what paperwork we do when.

If you put a frog in a pan of cool water and warm it very slowly, it will never jump out. It will sit there and cook.

 

[Jeffaah]

Because it was made without a serial number. The only guns that don’t require serial numbers going forward are:

plot twist.

I just checked my copies of the efa-10

In the serial # location one has “NA” and the other has”N/A”. It was intended to be not applicable. Right or wrong….its already done.

So technically I could/should engrave those as serial numbers now.

 

[MAJoe]

plot twist.

I just checked my copies of the efa-10

In the serial # location one has “NA” and the other has”N/A”. It was intended to be not applicable. Right or wrong….its already done.

So technically I could/should engrave those as serial numbers now.

Great question for an FFL. I don’t know what restrictions there are, if any, on non-manufacturer serials.

 

[CrackPot]

Crackpot.

So I have a fixed mag ar pistol. I used a jc arms fixed mag lower because of the 50oz rule.

Under the new law with no 50oz rule can I simply make the mag removable and be ok…assuming the brace and muzzle device are pinned?

Under the new law you can make detachable and not worry about features. 8/1 are grandfathered unconditionally

 

[FancyGunz]

Under the new law you can make detachable and not worry about features. 8/1 are grandfathered unconditionally

How is GOAL not interpreting it this way? They just released updated "guidance" and are still saying register before 8/1. After reading the bill it seems plainly apparently that registration is a future thing. I wish they would clarify their thought process.

 

[DJBrad]

Under the new law you can make detachable and not worry about features. 8/1 are grandfathered unconditionally

Well, well, well.

Same goes for ar pattern stripped lowers if 8/1 grandaddied?

Same goes for 80% ar pattern lowers grandaddied if serialized by 10/23?

 

[CrackPot]

How is GOAL not interpreting it this way? They just released updated "guidance" and are still saying register before 8/1. After reading the bill it seems plainly apparently that registration is a future thing. I wish they would clarify their thought process.

I am in direct or indirect communication with multiple strong gun lawyers in MA. They are telling GOAL that they have issues with the summary and interpretation. GOAL is not responding to them. I don't know who GOAL is using, but they are not the best lawyers around for sure. Sad.

 

[not new guy]

GOAL doesn't bring enough to the table to offset them spreading bad legal interpretations. Hopefully they're not going to be involved in the actual lawsuits when the time comes.