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reloading .22LR

Aside from the logistics of "reloading" a .22 lr, there are other factors that make doing it a futile exercise for long distance accuracy. The .22 has two things working against it regardless of bullet quality or load consistency...it has a low BC and it's reletively slow. I did some work trying to interpret standard deviations in muzzle velocities for rifles and my conclusions are that even if you have very consistent loads that small differences in external ballistics have a profound affect on slow, low BC bullets.


If your bored...see the attached (this has not been vetted by any professional ballistics engineers, it's just my own drivel)

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B3h4xRzVToiaZjc5NTI5ZmUtYmZjNC00N2Q4LWI4Y2MtYTk3MTRlYzU0ZWM2&hl=en
 
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Boris said:
I'm not sure about that (pattern being perfectly round) What EddieCoyle said, about elliptical osciallations, I'm gravitating toward that.
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Careful. I used an ellipse for my example. Barrel oscillation ranges from profoundly elliptical (almost a straight line) to perfectly circular. I've read accounts where people could not get a rifle to shoot accurately no matter what they tried for a load, then cut an inch off the barrel, and the rifle became a tack driver.

Also, of all rifles and calibers, a .22LR with a heavy barrel probably has the least whip.
 
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The distribution in that graph probably has nothing to do with barrel oscillation.

Think about it... Let's say I had already done everything possible to accurize a rifle, found the perfect load for it, and shot a bunch of groups. What would the graph look like?
 
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The bedding of the barrel (my preference is to free float a barrel), and the torque on the stock/receiver screw(s) is also a factor for tack drivers.

The barrel should almost ring like a bell when you fire the gun. Anything that dampens the natural vibrations will throw shots off. If the screws are loose (most people don't understand how important it is to properly tighten those screws), the receiver/barrel assembly will move differently with each shot.
 
Slowdive said:
If your bored...see the attached (this has not been vetted by any professional ballistics engineers, just my own drivel)
Click to expand...

well, this is one of the few intelligent, non RTFAed snarky onliners. This is exactly what I wanted to see. Btw, you are making an excellent point in the doc about diminishing returns on accuracy with effort.

Slowdive said:
Aside from the logistics of "reloading" a .22 lr, there are other factors that make doing it it a futile exercise for long distance accuracy.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what is a reasonable distance for 22. I guess the distance when rifle/ammo is less of a factor than random external factors like imperceptible wind gusts and air currents.

Slowdive said:
my conclusions are that even if you have very consistent loads that small differences in external balistics have a profound affect on slow low BC bullets.
Click to expand...

ok, here is a list of BC values for various .22LR ammo http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57007 and most of them are fairly low (.1xx), however drag function for RA4 would be different. I need to look through that more.
 
DukeInMaine said:
The bedding of the barrel (my preference is to free float a barrel), and the torque on the stock/receiver screw(s) is also a factor for tack drivers.

The barrel should almost ring like a bell when you fire the gun. Anything that dampens the natural vibrations will throw shots off. If the screws are loose (most people don't understand how important it is to properly tighten those screws), the receiver/barrel assembly will move differently with each shot.
Click to expand...

I saw that too. It almost sounds like the fastest way to accurize the rifle. I guess the first 3" have to be bedded well too. I should definitely look more into it, in any case.
 
EddieCoyle said:
The distribution in that graph probably has nothing to do with barrel oscillation.

Think about it... Let's say I had already done everything possible to accurize a rifle, found the perfect load for it, and shot a bunch of groups. What would the graph look like?
Click to expand...

ok, yes, I see what you are saying. As far as the length to twist issues, I found this gem: http://www.frfrogspad.com/extbal.htm, the very bottom.
 
Boris, you said that you shoot a box stock 10/22 but that this is not about the rifle.

I disagree. This is almost ALL about the rifle, a cheap plinker that needs SERIOUS work to become accurate.

This is all a fun theoretical exercise, but when it comes right down to it the rifle's capability is poor at best.

When it comes to rimfire accuracy, bolt actions are king. Period. End of story.
 
Jose said:
Boris, you said that you shoot a box stock 10/22 but that this is not about the rifle.

I disagree. This is almost ALL about the rifle, a cheap plinker that needs SERIOUS work to become accurate.

This is all a fun theoretical exercise, but when it comes right down to it the rifle's capability is poor at best.

When it comes to rimfire accuracy, bolt actions are king. Period. End of story.
Click to expand...

you win the internet amigo [laugh]
 
Jose said:
Boris, you said that you shoot a box stock 10/22 but that this is not about the rifle.

I disagree. This is almost ALL about the rifle, a cheap plinker that needs SERIOUS work to become accurate.

This is all a fun theoretical exercise, but when it comes right down to it the rifle's capability is poor at best.

When it comes to rimfire accuracy, bolt actions are king. Period. End of story.
Click to expand...

I am not disputing anything that you are saying, we are on the same page. I don't expect my 10/22 perform the same way as more expensive precision shooters, no matter where the ammo comes from. I'm not looking for some magic way for a 10/22 to outshoot other rifles with fancy ammo.

What I am looking for is data backed, specific factors, explanations, statistics etc. That's not boring to me and researching how ammo is manufactured, tolerances, how it interacts with various barrels is what I'm after. There are already some really good pointers and leads that were posted in this thread. Again, not everyone would care to read through the papers and formulas but I am grateful for all meaningful responses.
 
Kevlar said:
This thread may interest you...http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...g-Accuracy-why-I-have-stopped-shooting-groups
Click to expand...

Boris said:
that's an excellent article!

What he is saying though, the distribution will be a perfectly round:

So in this case (if it's perfectly round) you can just look at a cross section and express consistency in standard deviation (which is square root of variance), there is no need to compute MOA.

I'm not sure about that (pattern being perfectly round) What EddieCoyle said, about elliptical osciallations, I'm gravitating toward that.
Click to expand...

EddieCoyle said:
The distribution in that graph probably has nothing to do with barrel oscillation.

Think about it... Let's say I had already done everything possible to accurize a rifle, found the perfect load for it, and shot a bunch of groups. What would the graph look like?
Click to expand...

When I wrote that little piece about measuring accuracy I assumed spread due to noise would not favor one axis over another. It may be that a deep understanding of the sources of noise would alter that assumption, but I doubt it would matter much.

Boris said:
I am not disputing anything that you are saying, we are on the same page. I don't expect my 10/22 perform the same way as more expensive precision shooters, no matter where the ammo comes from. I'm not looking for some magic way for a 10/22 to outshoot other rifles with fancy ammo.

What I am looking for is data backed, specific factors, explanations, statistics etc. That's not boring to me and researching how ammo is manufactured, tolerances, how it interacts with various barrels is what I'm after. There are already some really good pointers and leads that were posted in this thread. Again, not everyone would care to read through the papers and formulas but I am grateful for all meaningful responses.
Click to expand...

If I had the time and interest I would take a brick of CCI ammunition and categorize it in several ways: rim thickness, OAL, total weight, etc. Then shoot many 10-round groups of each category. Compare to a sample of groups shot with a random sample from the brick. Do that right and you will have a good idea of how much variation in the ammunition affects things. I would be interested in those results.
 
economist said:
If I had the time and interest I would take a brick of CCI ammunition and categorize it in several ways: rim thickness, OAL, total weight, etc. Then shoot many 10-round groups of each category. Compare to a sample of groups shot with a random sample from the brick. Do that right and you will have a good idea of how much variation in the ammunition affects things. I would be interested in those results.
Click to expand...

that's a most meritorious endeavor! [wink]

I'm thinking about building a shooting rest/lead sled (yeah, I know, I can just buy it, it's a WOT) to take out my shooting skills out of the equation. I definitely don't want to shoot any trials before I get it done.

for rim thickness I heard that there are gages, I'll look into getting those.

anyone knows of a better tool to measure bullet diameter or OAL than a regular mechanical micrometer? Vernier caliper is ok, but I looked at a few rounds, I want a slightly better resolution, may be my caliper suck though. I have a couple digital ones, I don't trust them for precision, at least the last few digits. I was thinking about some DIY jig with laser.
 
Boris, absolutely no offense meant, but this whole exercise will be a tremendous waste of time.

You can measure everything on a .22LR you can think of with the most precise instruments money can buy, keep meticulous records, and your 'results' will mean nothing because of the crappy lead bullets, and variability in the priming compound. You're also planning to do your testing on a questionable platform.

If you want to improve your groups, skip the sled and laser measurements, fire lap your barrel, spend your money on ammo, and your time on practice.
 
EddieCoyle said:
Boris, absolutely no offense meant, but this whole exercise will be a tremendous waste of time.

You can measure everything on a .22LR you can think of with the most precise instruments money can buy, keep meticulous records, and your 'results' will mean nothing because of the crappy lead bullets, and variability in the priming compound. You're also planning to do your testing on a questionable platform.

If you want to improve your groups, skip the sled and laser measurements, fire lap your barrel, spend your money on ammo, and your time on practice.
Click to expand...


I'm sorry if I wasted anyone else's time, but I learned a great deal so far and that can't be bad. I don't want to get better groups in a hurry. I got time, I'm still going to the range practicing and some side projects like getting the lead sled, it's fun, I'll enjoy putting it together and using it. I'll post some pics later on that, so hopefully I can give back. I knew nothing about fire lapping, .22 ballistics before this thread. That's all great information!

I also have to say that I'm 2nd gen QC (quality control) engineer, so figuring out how many odd rounds are there in the box is actually fun. I'd really enjoy sorting them, firing and getting the statistics out. That's my thing. I know that not everyone is like that. Just don't hate me for it.

I found more references on the web for people sorting their .22 by weight and dimensions. I have not seen statistics backed by data that says it's effective. No one has done it before and published it. That article about accuracy, ballistics and reloading - that was brilliant! I just hope my contribution would clarify some things as much.

I got similar micrometer, ok, I'll think of something.
 
Before you start reinventing the wheel, you should do some research. There is an excellent book by George Frost and published by the NRA called Ammunition Making. It is out of print and used copies are $150. You can find a .pdf on line if you look hard enough.

Very good chapter on .22 rim fire accuracy.

B
 
bpm990d said:
Before you start reinventing the wheel, you should do some research. There is an excellent book by George Frost and published by the NRA called Ammunition Making. It is out of print and used copies are $150. You can find a .pdf on line if you look hard enough.

Very good chapter on .22 rim fire accuracy.

B
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just got it [smile], it's a great book. I wander how things have changed in the last 60 years?
 
For the most part............ they haven't changed at all (when it comes to ammo making)..
The chemical formulations have changed a bit, but most of the equipment and technique still survives.

Boris said:
just got it [smile], it's a great book. I wander how things have changed in the last 60 years?
Click to expand...
 
Boris said:
There is no f-ing magic and guns can not "like" ammo, they can just shoot various averages/distributions. I'm just trying to get away from the "magic" and toward quantitative, experience substantiated data.
Click to expand...

Yes, Yes they can and do.

Theoretically a gun, perfectly stable, shooting exactly the same ammo, under the same conditions should put bullets into the same hole. So what are the biggest factors that contribute to precision? Barrel condition/shape, it's bedding. Ammo? Did anyone slugged their .22 rifle and measured average dia/spherocity of the ammo they are shooting?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

And no. Not even in a Ransom rest in a room that has a controlled climate. Lest you place the target card at inches to in direct contact with muzzle.
Sorry
 
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