Selling a C&R - Question

[xstickfightx]

As a holder of a C&R license can I sell something from my collection to a non-C&R holder? Are there any requirements such as copies of state licenses or other such nonsense? (aside from recording the transaction in the bound book)

thanks

-Matt

 

[Len-2A Training]

Yes, LTC/FID logged in your BB, FA-10 as a transaction between private parties. All this assumes buyer is in MA as well, otherwise you have to deliver/ship to an 01 FFL in buyer's state for handguns or an 01 FFL in either state for long guns.

 

[bostonshovel]

Sorry to dig up a old thread but better then starting a new one..
along the lines of this post. I found a decent deal on SKS...I have my 03 FFL..My brother in law wants one as well. Im not making any money on the sale so I should legally be able to purchase 2,,register them in the bound book..then transfer one to him in the bound book with all his LTC information and FA 10 correct?

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Sorry to dig up a old thread but better then starting a new one..
along the lines of this post. I found a decent deal on SKS...I have my 03 FFL..My brother in law wants one as well. Im not making any money on the sale so I should legally be able to purchase 2,,register them in the bound book..then transfer one to him in the bound book with all his LTC information and FA 10 correct?

I thought it didnt matter if you were making money on the sale or not, either way such a quick turn around might raise some questions. I could be wrong (usually am!!!)

 

[vellnueve]

Nope. Your C&R is to facilitate your collecting only. The intent of buying it and then transferring it to someone else is not what your license is there for, even without monetary gain.

 

[bostonshovel]

Nope. Your C&R is to facilitate your collecting only. The intent of buying it and then transferring it to someone else is not what your license is there for, even without monetary gain.

aww that sucks.looks like my brother in saw is SOL then...i thought you could sell, just couldnt make a habit of it..i would rather error on the side of caution i guess

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Nope. Your C&R is to facilitate your collecting only. The intent of buying it and then transferring it to someone else is not what your license is there for, even without monetary gain.

although I dont see any hard and fast guidelines on this, that was what I understood. Then, how does one go about selling something they no longer want? I mean, with it so apparently vague, how does one discern the difference in motives besides just the quickness of turnaround?

Seems like one of those horribly vague scenarios

 

[digitech]

The principal advantage of a Collector's License, therefore, is that a collector can acquire curios or relics in interstate commerce. Although a licensed collector may acquire and dispose of curios or relics at any location, dispositions to nonlicensees must generally be made to residents of the same State in which the collector is licensed. Further, A LICENSED COLLECTOR IS NOT AUTHORIZED TO ENGAGE IN BUSINESS AS A DEALER IN ANY FIREARMS, INCLUDING CURIOS OR RELICS. A FEDERAL FIREARMS DEALER'S LICENSE IS REQUIRED FOR THIS ACTIVITY. The term "engaged in business" as applied to a dealer in firearms refers, in part, to a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit. Therefore, any person intending to "engage in the business" of selling firearms, including firearms defined by ATF as Curios or Relics, must first obtain a dealers license. For example, if a collector acquires curios or relics for the purpose of sale rather than to enhance a collection, the collector would have to be licensed as a dealer in firearms under the GCA. The sole intent and purpose of the collector's license is to enable a firearms collector to obtain curio or relic firearms from outside his or her State of residence.

You could purchase two in the attempt to pick from the better of the two then turn right around and sell the second one. No time limit and no other reason. You are enhancing your collection.

 

[jdubois]

I've always assumed that the ATF would frown on this behavior, due to the following question that was asked of and answered by the ATF (from surplusrifle.com.) It's not exactly the same situation, but it's close; Shipping a rifle into state intended for another person. You could always ask the ATF your question directly, but I'm pretty sure they'd come back with a similar answer.

You could, as digitech states, pretend you weren't planning on buying it for your brother in law, and then immediately upon receipt decided to sell it to him. I'm sure that situation would pass muster. But, since that's not actually what is happening, it becomes an ethical decision, really.

Q: A friend's dad has a couple of C&R rifles and wants to give them to his son. The dad is in Montana and the son is in Virginia. I have a C&R, can I act as a go between, having the father ship the rifles to me and then I give them to the son? Or can the dad just ship them directly to the son without any paperwork/licenses, or does he have to go through an 01 licensee?

A: A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her state, if the buyer is not prohibited by law from receiving or possessing a firearm, or to a licensee in any state. A firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector. [18 U.S.C 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 178.29]

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-state source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's state of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer. [18 U.S.C 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 178.29]

The transaction must go through a licensed dealer in his son's State. You are not a dealer and therefore should not get involved.

 

[Adam_MA]

Why couldn't you just get 2 with your C&R then just let your brother "borrow" the other one?

 

[bostonshovel]

Thanks for all the answers guys. what a PITA this turned out to be.

 

[Mike1911]

In the logbook for C&R holders, Disposition of Firearms page. How does one Dispose of a firearm he no longer wants or needs? I'm not being a wiseguy I just want to know?

In my 5 years as a C&R hoder I have disposed of 2 guns. One to a FFL 01 and one to a cousin of mine with a Mass. LTC with a Class A.

Thanks.

 

[bostonshovel]

Thats what I was thinking Mike.
I could have sworn I read you could sell, but just not for a Business purpose..

 

[jdubois]

Thats what I was thinking Mike.
I could have sworn I read you could sell, but just not for a Business purpose..

Yes, of course you can sell. If the original question was, "Can I sell one of my C&R guns to my brother in law?" The answer would be a definite, "Yes, of course." But the question was, "Can I buy a C&R gun for my brother in law using my C&R license." The answer to that is, "The ATF would likely frown on that."

 

[bostonshovel]

then i will have to order 2 to make sure i get the best one...

 

[jdubois]

then i will have to order 2 to make sure i get the best one...

Yeah, that was digitech's solution. The chances of you getting caught doing that by the ATF are slim to non-existent, and even if they noticed it during an (unlikely) audit and cared enough to be upset about it, the worst they'd do is revoke your license. So... like I said before, it's an ethical question more than a legal one. Either you're ok using your license in what might be considered bad faith, and you go ahead and do it, or you're not ok and you don't.