Smith & Wesson reports earnings slump, but sees firearms market as ‘steady’

T-Unit said:
Who isn't reporting lower than expected earnings now? It's a recession and there's no panic buying anymore, hasn't been any for a couple years.

Doesn't help that S&W's quality kind of sucks now.
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Smith could sell a bunch of revolvers for 20% more if they could deliver a well curated, well QCed product line. It's too bad even the performance center line is often a joke now.
 
The MA progs-libs will be celebrating this. i thought they were out of TN now. How much of a local footprint do they even have anymore?
 
It's not really a surprise, most potential gun buyers have blown their wad in the past 5 years from mar 2020 to now. There's no pent up demand other than with enthusiasts that want bleeding edge or access to stuff that was painful before (HK could be making some bank right now if they brought back more roller guns under 3 grand).
 
drgrant said:
Smith could sell a bunch of revolvers for 20% more if they could deliver a well curated, well QCed product line. It's too bad even the performance center line is often a joke now.
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Just gonna list what revolvers S&W does that I'm interested in at 20% more. For the Ultimate Carry .32/.38 J frames would be $725, the 610 would be $1150; I've already said no to them at their current prices even with good QC, but at those prices I have to say no even with perfect QC.

The biggest issue I'm seeing with revolvers now is the tolerances are so loose they're killing the maximum velocity potential, which for hollow points is make or break in performance. Someone on another forum got chrono data with .32 S&W Long ammo in a few different revolvers, the S&W 432UC had lower velocities than a 2 inch Taurus .327 and that Taurus had the same velocity as a 5 inch GP100 in .327.

I'm sure the finish on the Smith's is better than Ruger, but if all the premium revolvers are getting their butts whopped in muzzle velocity compared to the budget brands I'm even less interested. Other than the LCR, the only revolvers I buy now are Taurus.

If we're talking semi autos, the M&P pistol line never interested me, the AR line is decent, but I don't have a need for a S&W AR. The .22 Mag and 5.7 pistols they do are cool, but I don't like .22 Mag in a pistol and if I were to ever get a 5.7 pistol I want a small, thin, light one and that's the major reason Kel Tec made the PR57 which just started shipping a couple weeks ago so that means they are still in Beta mode and requires another 6-12 months for the patch updates to take effect.
 
T-Unit said:
Just gonna list what revolvers S&W does that I'm interested in at 20% more. For the Ultimate Carry .32/.38 J frames would be $725, the 610 would be $1150; I've already said no to them at their current prices even with good QC, but at those prices I have to say no even with perfect QC.

The biggest issue I'm seeing with revolvers now is the tolerances are so loose they're killing the maximum velocity potential, which for hollow points is make or break in performance. Someone on another forum got chrono data with .32 S&W Long ammo in a few different revolvers, the S&W 432UC had lower velocities than a 2 inch Taurus .327 and that Taurus had the same velocity as a 5 inch GP100 in .327.

I'm sure the finish on the Smith's is better than Ruger, but if all the premium revolvers are getting their butts whopped in muzzle velocity compared to the budget brands I'm even less interested. Other than the LCR, the only revolvers I buy now are Taurus.
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I don't really think you understand what perfect QC is. Think manhurin or Korth or old S&W (pre tomkins shit) etc. There currently is not a revolver on the market out of box in this class.
 
Tangentially related, I was on a problem loan call. One of the relationships under review was a firing range in a red state. The business has been losing money and burning through cash for the last 2+ years, with a large, increasing inventory. It is expected that it will default on their loans at some point this year.
 
drgrant said:
I don't really think you understand what perfect QC is. Think manhurin or Korth or old S&W (pre tomkins shit) etc. There currently is not a revolver on the market out of box in this class.
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I added more about semi autos in that post.

Perfect QC to me means no issues out of box or likely to develop in the first few thousand rounds. What you're thinking of is just QC in general which I don't think S&W does anymore, they just have guys that hit dimensions on a print, don't bother deburring because it sucks and TikTok is more fun, and the assemblers are pushed to slap everything together to get product shipped to make the supervisors look like they're hot shit and deserve a promotion.

I'm of the opinion it is like that across the industry, but certain companies that have had a bad rep for quality are getting their act together because they realize it is hurting their image and potential sales while S&W and Ruger are cruising along not giving a fukk about quality because they've got enough Boomers and Gex X fanbois parroting talking points in gun shops, internet forums, and social media.

I'm probably focusing more on revolvers with this line of thinking, but for the semi autos it's a question of what more does the average gunsumer need? They already got the polymer 9 and AR and pump shottie, what's left? Not enough to meet S&W's projections obviously.
 
Nobody buys guns during a Republican sweep of the executive and legislative branches! Need to wait until 2026 to see if buying goes up. Assuming the coming recession is over by then.
 
DarkJoker33 said:
Thought the GP100 from Ruger was in that good QC list as well
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It's better than the SP101 is, but comparing piss to Bud Light doesn't say much to how awful both taste. The GP wasn't a bad revolver 10+ years ago when they were about $500, but now they are $700+ and not as well finished or QC'd as those from a decade ago. I can get a Taurus 7 shot .357 with better fit and QC (finish isn't polished stainless or blue anymore) for half the price of a comparable GP100.

I can literally buy a Taurus .357 AND .38 snub for less than one GP100 and they're both better than the Ruger.
 
drgrant said:
It's not really a surprise, most potential gun buyers have blown their wad in the past 5 years from mar 2020 to now. There's no pent up demand other than with enthusiasts that want bleeding edge or access to stuff that was painful before (HK could be making some bank right now if they brought back more roller guns under 3 grand).
Click to expand...
citoriguy said:
Nobody buys guns during a Republican sweep of the executive and legislative branches! Need to wait until 2026 to see if buying goes up. Assuming the coming recession is over by then.
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eye_check.gif
🤣
 
T-Unit said:
Who isn't reporting lower than expected earnings now? It's a recession and there's no panic buying anymore, hasn't been any for a couple years.

Doesn't help that S&W's quality kind of sucks now.
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There is no recession right now. Sorry.
 
drgrant said:
It's not really a surprise, most potential gun buyers have blown their wad in the past 5 years from mar 2020 to now. There's no pent up demand other than with enthusiasts that want bleeding edge or access to stuff that was painful before (HK could be making some bank right now if they brought back more roller guns under 3 grand).
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Eh... there's really imo just no compelling reason to buy any gun they make.

The bg/shield were slick when they came out

But they haven't revamped the m+p line up so duty size 9s are out

The pocket carry market and single stack 9 markets cooled

Their ars are meh

The tatical lever gun only really attracts retards

Their pcc's are gay

They havent revamped their 1911 offerings in a hot minute

The wheel guns are ok but nothing super new there either with spotty qc

Their 1.5 stack/2011 offering the csx is dumber than kamala harris and tim walz combined

The 5.7 and 22mag are kinda cool but those are not big markets

They really have done nothing to increase sales is what I'm getting at
 
jkelly1229 said:
Eh... there's really imo just no compelling reason to buy any gun they make.

The bg/shield were slick when they came out

But they haven't revamped the m+p line up so duty size 9s are out

The pocket carry market and single stack 9 markets cooled

Their ars are meh

The tatical lever gun only really attracts retards

Their pcc's are gay

They havent revamped their 1911 offerings in a hot minute

The wheel guns are ok but nothing super new there either with spotty qc

Their 1.5 stack/2011 offering the csx is dumber than kamala harris and tim walz combined

The 5.7 and 22mag are kinda cool but those are not big markets

They really have done nothing to increase sales is what I'm getting at
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They're not going to increase sales in this market, making wheelies that suck less would sell some guns though, but even that... even that would saturate in a year.
 
drgrant said:
They're not going to increase sales in this market, making wheelies that suck less would sell some guns though, but even that... even that would saturate in a year.
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Eh..

If they did a good 1.5 stack comp

Revamped their 1911s

Released a good 2011 maybe on mp mags

They might be better off...but no you are correct retail is scary right now

I work for a huge retailer...the internal talks are scary
 
drgrant said:
They're not going to increase sales in this market, making wheelies that suck less would sell some guns though, but even that... even that would saturate in a year.
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What I dont get is the sudden market chasing halt

S+w is a solid market chase option

They havent done some of these things which may be telling
 
jkelly1229 said:
Eh... there's really imo just no compelling reason to buy any gun they make.

The bg/shield were slick when they came out

But they haven't revamped the m+p line up so duty size 9s are out

The pocket carry market and single stack 9 markets cooled

Their ars are meh

The tatical lever gun only really attracts retards

Their pcc's are gay

They havent revamped their 1911 offerings in a hot minute

The wheel guns are ok but nothing super new there either with spotty qc

Their 1.5 stack/2011 offering the csx is dumber than kamala harris and tim walz combined

The 5.7 and 22mag are kinda cool but those are not big markets

They really have done nothing to increase sales is what I'm getting at
Click to expand...
It's a tough market and S&W offers a lot of variety, but the dominate movers in the market are poly 9s, pocket .380s, snub revolvers (which S&W does offer great options, but again, the QC is lacking), AR's and .22 rifles. The problem is there are already so many more options out there from competition to the used market that any reversion away from panic buying crushes the gun manufacturers earnings.

The reality is when Democrats are in power, the gun makers do very well for themselves.

To generate new sales the companies have to innovate and bring to market stuff not currently available. Ruger was right to make a 5.7 half the price of the FN pistol. That wasn't going to be as big a market as the 9mm does, but it was a part of it that wasn't being served and it started a race to gain market share.

Market loves capacity, Sig took a double stack 9mm and put it on Ozempic and after a few weeks made the 365. Now single stack 9mm's are pretty much dead, can probably get them real cheap used now.

People love the idea of a pocket shotgun, so Taurus makes the Judge and it's been hated by everyone since, yet the things just keep selling. Always wondered why Ruger didn't bother to get in on the .410 revolver market, S&W did with the Governor. Maybe Ruger couldn't think of a catchy name for it but that was easy, just call it the Ruger Dicktator because dictators tells judges and governors to suck their dick.

What S&W has brought to market hasn't been exciting. The Kel Tec ripoffs like the KSG and Sub 2000 clones, I think that market is saturated and everyone who wanted those guns bought them.

I've been saying for years there's a void in the revolver market for smaller than J frame size built around .32 ACP or S&W Long in a 5 shot cylinder, ultralight frame, short cylinder and window, 9oz snub revolver. They made them 100+ years ago, they could make them today, but my guess is that just because they're smaller, doesn't mean they'll be faster to manufacture and assemble to sell at a price the public is willing to pay.
 
T-Unit said:
It's a tough market and S&W offers a lot of variety, but the dominate movers in the market are poly 9s, pocket .380s, snub revolvers (which S&W does offer great options, but again, the QC is lacking), AR's and .22 rifles. The problem is there are already so many more options out there from competition to the used market that any reversion away from panic buying crushes the gun manufacturers earnings.

The reality is when Democrats are in power, the gun makers do very well for themselves.

To generate new sales the companies have to innovate and bring to market stuff not currently available. Ruger was right to make a 5.7 half the price of the FN pistol. That wasn't going to be as big a market as the 9mm does, but it was a part of it that wasn't being served and it started a race to gain market share.

Market loves capacity, Sig took a double stack 9mm and put it on Ozempic and after a few weeks made the 365. Now single stack 9mm's are pretty much dead, can probably get them real cheap used now.

People love the idea of a pocket shotgun, so Taurus makes the Judge and it's been hated by everyone since, yet the things just keep selling. Always wondered why Ruger didn't bother to get in on the .410 revolver market, S&W did with the Governor. Maybe Ruger couldn't think of a catchy name for it but that was easy, just call it the Ruger Dicktator because dictators tells judges and governors to suck their dick.

What S&W has brought to market hasn't been exciting. The Kel Tec ripoffs like the KSG and Sub 2000 clones, I think that market is saturated and everyone who wanted those guns bought them.

I've been saying for years there's a void in the revolver market for smaller than J frame size built around .32 ACP or S&W Long in a 5 shot cylinder, ultralight frame, short cylinder and window, 9oz snub revolver. They made them 100+ years ago, they could make them today, but my guess is that just because they're smaller, doesn't mean they'll be faster to manufacture and assemble to sell at a price the public is willing to pay.
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Pretty much my follow up

S+w has always been a market follower

I find it truly more telling they havent got into the 2011 hype or the 1.5 stack ccw market

Hell hk dropped a carry gun before s+w did
 
jkelly1229 said:
I guess you are right but 10 and 13 blow for capacity

I honestly always thought that was a longer shield
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The problem with the pantyshield plus was never capacity. Glock only had 10 in the 43x and moved plenty of units. The problem was that smith showed up VERY late to the party. By then the 365, 43x, and Hellcat were getting all the buys from the non smith acolyte crowd. (Basically all the people who had an SW logo tattood on their buttcheek) 🤣
 
I’m at an age that I realize buying more guns just leave more stuff for my kids to clean up when I leave this world. My kids love shooting and they’ll inherit some nice pieces but they can collect thing according to their own taste.

I sold four and bought one last year. The only thing that I would buy right now, is an optic-ready, hammer fired carry gun, and even that’s up for debate: HK P7 is unmatched in the safety department for appendix carry/holstering, and the only benefits for a change, is slightly increased capacity to 10+1 and an optic.
 
mu2bdriver said:
The MA progs-libs will be celebrating this. i thought they were out of TN now. How much of a local footprint do they even have anymore?
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I thought that when they announced it the idea was at first to move the AR15 production from MA and eventually all long guns in TN, I would imagine that they are done with this. If they moved hand gun production out of MA, it would be a big kick in the groin for Western MA. The interesting thing though is when S&W laid off hundreds of employees and contractors, no politician lifted a finger to help. That will be the fate of everyone else working there.
 

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