So Much for Louisville..Teacher Burns Flag

[Major Blood]

Don't be so quick to concede, C-pher. When the Constitution was originally debated, many of the southern delegates wanted to eliminate the importation of slaves immediately. It was the northern delegates who pushed to continue it, since the people making money from the slave trade were the New England ship owners, not anybody in the south. The south had slavery, and the north got rich off it. There's enough guilt for everybody, not just those who lost the war.

Ken

While it is a fact that many southern delegates were against slavery, and many northerners profited from it, to say that "not anybody in the south" profited from slavery is quite the misguided statement. Have you seen the southern plantations? How immense they are? Not to mention the opulence of the main houses on said plantations? If so, I can't see how you can seriously hold the opinion that they weren't profiteers of slavery as well.

That's like saying that if for some reason Walmart was told that they didn't have to pay any wages or benefits to any of their employees for the next couple hundred years or so, the only ones to benefit would be the trucking companies they use...

I too enjoy a good debate, and don't mean to offend, but sometimes its inevitable that some will take things personally. My only insults were directed at the long dead proponents of slavery, which I will not apologize for. Anybody who can use the Bible as justification to enslave, torture, kill or own their fellow man deserves a lot more than an insult.

As for the flag issue, I personally don't see a reason why we even HAVE state flags, do you? And should the parents of a soldier killed in Iraq have a problem with an Iraqi flag raised in their neighborhood, I take it from your comments that you'll be the first one out there defending their right to take pride in their country? Yes, it's the right thing to do, and they would have every right to raise that flag, but you know what? Sometimes situations warrant that you let pride take a backseat to tact. It would be perfectly legal for delegates of NAMBLA to show up at a pedophile's trial waving their little flag and spouting their beliefs, but still probably not the wisest, most compassionate thing to do...

 

[Jaxon]

A spirited debate and to top off the day, Pluto is no longer on the Planets list.

Can the day just get any better?

RJ

 

[dwarven1]

A spirited debate and to top off the day, Pluto is no longer on the Planets list.

Ahem.

Pluto is now a DWARF planet.

 

[dwarven1]

I also wonder what the reaction would be should a Native American family move into a Jewish neighborhood and fly a swastika on their property.

It all depends on how they're flying it. If it's on a red field with a white circle in the center and it's oriented facing right, with the main arms at a diagnonal, I will assume that they're Nazis and act accordingly.

If it's NOT on a Nazi flag, then I'll probably come over with a plate of cookies or a "mommy cake" (an old family recipe) and welcome them to the neighborhood.

Of course, I'm sure some idiot will accuse them of being Nazis no matter how the fylfot is oriented or facing. Lots of people leap to conclusions these days.

 

[C-pher]

I would have no problem with a person in my neighborhood flying an Iraqi flag if they so chose. As I don't have a problem with someone flying a Mexican flag, or an Italian flag, or an Irish flag.

If they live here, they have the right to take pride in their heritage. Even when I have family over in Iraq as we speak. As I'm sure they would think the same thing. As that's why they are over there, so people here have the rights to fly the flags of their choice.

And just so you know, I never said that the South didn't depend of Slavery, nor did I say that they didn't profit off of it...nor as I read it did Ken.

He stated that the South didn't get rich off of Slave Trade. He never said that the South didn't get rich off of Slavery. Two different issues within the topic of Slavery.

And to comment on Ross's comment. Even if it wasn't the "Nazi" flag. If they had a swastika on a flag with no other colors. And the owners of the house were anglo-saxon and had shaved heads and wore arm bands...I would have an issue with the flag.

If said owners were of darker skin and had long hair and dream catchers in the window...I would have a different thought.

But yes, someone in the neighborhood would have issues no matter what their background was...

And yes, both are grand generalizations.

And on the topic of Tact. We're talking about people in the South flying the flag of the South. Not people in the North flying the flag of the South where the understanding of the flag is cloudy. I agree that some times you just have to deal and do what's best for everyone.

But to say that the people that live there, can't fly the flag of their past when you don't live there...

Well, that's pretty close to pushing your beliefs on someone that didn't ask. Which is why they had the problem in the first place...

And here's where history goes full circle because we didn't learn the truths of said history.

 

[Major Blood]

I would have no problem with a person in my neighborhood flying an Iraqi flag if they so chose. As I don't have a problem with someone flying a Mexican flag, or an Italian flag, or an Irish flag.

If they live here, they have the right to take pride in their heritage. Even when I have family over in Iraq as we speak. As I'm sure they would think the same thing. As that's why they are over there, so people here have the rights to fly the flags of their choice.

And just so you know, I never said that the South didn't depend of Slavery, nor did I say that they didn't profit off of it...nor as I read it did Ken.

He stated that the South didn't get rich off of Slave Trade. He never said that the South didn't get rich off of Slavery. Two different issues within the topic of Slavery.

And to comment on Ross's comment. Even if it wasn't the "Nazi" flag. If they had a swastika on a flag with no other colors. And the owners of the house were anglo-saxon and had shaved heads and wore arm bands...I would have an issue with the flag.

If said owners were of darker skin and had long hair and dream catchers in the window...I would have a different thought.

But yes, someone in the neighborhood would have issues no matter what their background was...

And yes, both are grand generalizations.

And on the topic of Tact. We're talking about people in the South flying the flag of the South. Not people in the North flying the flag of the South where the understanding of the flag is cloudy. I agree that some times you just have to deal and do what's best for everyone.

But to say that the people that live there, can't fly the flag of their past when you don't live there...

Well, that's pretty close to pushing your beliefs on someone that didn't ask. Which is why they had the problem in the first place...

And here's where history goes full circle because we didn't learn the truths of said history.

Well, lumping the slave trade and slavery together is akin to lumping together apples and apple sauce, no need to draw some imaginary distinction between the two and as was mentioned, there's more than enough blame (rather than guilt) to go around on both sides.

And I'm not against anyone flying whatever flag they choose, whatever they think it represents...a flag is a symbol, nothing more. My whole argument was pointing out the hypocrisy of those who protest to flag burning as un-patriotic but can't for the life of them see how flying a flag other than the Stars and Stripes might seem just as un-patriotic to others. In other words, the pot calling the kettle black.

I personally could care less if you flew the flag, burned it, or wiped your backside with it...again, to me personally, it's only a material symbol of an ideal, not the ideal itself. Besides, this country hardly lives up to the ideals it was supposedly founded on anyway, so it's an especially moot point as far as I'm concerned.

As for those kids dying in Iraq to "preserve" our "freedom", "way of life", or whatever hot buzzword chosen to justify this fiasco, I can only laugh, albeit a sad, morbid laugh. A laugh of disbelief that anyone in this country, the most powerful and rich in the world, can not only eat that bs up, but sop it up with a biscuit and ask for seconds. We were not, are not, and will not be in any danger of having our "freedom" or "way of life" threatened from any rogue state, terrorist group, or crazed militia. To hear the Bush administration tell it, you'd think we were on the brink of a "Red Dawn" scenario, which is laughable at best. The only proven threats to our freedom are, and always have been, irrational fear and our own government. But people only see that when it touches on an issue close to their own personal ideals, preferences and lifestyle choice....say for instance, I don't know...the second amendment?

 

[C-pher]

All I'm saying is that, and you don't have to believe it, if it wasn't for our past military we might be speaking German, or Japanese right now.

So, if I choose to support our men and women of the military, no matter where they are at the moment, I will. You may find it silly, but it's what I do.

Like the flag of both accounts...Lives were lost over those colors. And while you don't really seem, and I could be wrong, to hold a lot of faith in them...many people do.

And yes, while it's just a symbol of an Ideal, sometimes a symbol is what's needed to for people to remember. It's something tangible that people can hold and see to remind them of our past. And what we've gone through as a country.

So, for families that have lost a life, or lives over those flags, they mean just as much to them as a picture on the mantel.

 

[Major Blood]

Oh I don't believe it, I KNOW IT, no argument from me there.

But this isn't 1942, we are not the country we were then, and neither is the world.

And just to clarify, before anyone gets the wrong idea, I support the troops with all of my being. They're just brave souls putting their lives on the line, and for that I'll always applaud them. It's the dishonesty, special interests and hidden agendas of the men that command those troops that I have a problem with, and that I don't support.

Also, I don't want anyone to think I don't have faith in the colors of our flag. I have enormous faith in the potential those flags represent, and the concept they are meant to symbolize, but you have to realize not everyone sees the same things when they look at it. For me, being a minority, it's a mixed bag. On the one hand, there's a sense of pride, and on the other, a sense of disappointment. I've seen that flag waved while people were being hung from trees, my own grandfather, and several others of his generation, was one of the many that fought to keep us from speaking german or japanese, yet came home and was never afforded the rights and freedoms he was willing to die protecting. The fact is, and this isn't meant to be racist at all, but your average white male American has no reason to not blindly support that flag as it's ideals were typically reserved for him, at the exclusion of women and non-whites. But you have to realize, some people in this country have not ony fought for those rights overseas, but have also had to fight their own govt. at home to get the benefit of those rights. It's a matter of perspective.

And just as a side-note, history has taught us that blind faith in ANYTHING, let alone your govt., usually ends bad. So I reserve the right to be skeptical, as you should...it's also one of the rights those soldiers have died for.

But again, don't for a minute think that I don't have alot vested in this country, if anything I've got more than your average person.

Great debate everyone, although a bit off-topic...lol. Kudos to everyone that chimed in with respect, if we could only get a national discourse this open and honest, we might actually be ok...lol.

 

[C-pher]

Dude, don't be surprised if I buy you a beer if we ever get the chance to meet.

We aren't the country that we were during WWII. But we still have fights to fight. Because people don't like the colors that are flying on my front Porch. And just because of those colors and no other reason, they want to hurt us. They don't care about anything else.

And no, I'm not flying the "Union Jack." As you said, it's not something that I would fly here in the North East. People have the wrong ideals, or perceptions, of what that flag means.

I will agree that the rights of all men were not equal during the early part of our country. And don't think that just because I'm a white man, I don't think of that quite often. More so being a man of the South. I've said before that many Southerners aren't proud of parts of our past.

But I think that there are a lot of things in US history that maybe we shouldn't be proud of... But I also don't have blind faith in our Government.

Yet, as a dichotomy, I don't believe that you can have it both ways. I don't believe that you can support our troops, and not support the men behind those troops. Thost troops are fighting a mission, a mission that is being pushed down from the men you don't support. So when you don't support what they are fighting for, you're in a sense not really supporting those men and women. You may feel bad for those men and women. You may have concern for those men and women. But I don't feel that you're really supporting those troops.

I have a blue star flag in my window. I have one on my car. Yet, just having those things...I don't believe that it's a true support as anyone can have them.

As you say, they are ideals. But they are ideals that I believe in, and support fully. Not Blindly. I may not agree with everything. But I do support the reasons that they are over there. Therefore supporting the troops.

If that makes any sense...

 

[Sixgun]

The fact is that the "Emancipation Proclamation" was issued in 1863 which was two years AFTER the secession. It only freed slaves in the rebelling states and did not free slaves in SLAVE states that stayed with the Union, like Kentucky. In those states, freedom of slaves didn't come until two years AFTER the war ended! We can see by this that the real reason for the rebellion was, in fact, STATES RIGHTS and not the issue of slavery. The immediate trigger was the deployment of Federal troops to South Carolina. The South Carolinians took exception to that (rightly so, in my opinion) and fired on Fort Sumpter. Let's say a Democrat President wants to send troops into NH to "keep an eye on all those pro-gun troublemakers" and see which side of the rebellion you're on.
The "Emancipation Proclamation" was a political move by Lincoln to keep France and England from assisting the South. And in fact, most Union soldiers were against it because they didn't feel that fighting for the emancipation of the blacks was worth dying for, but that fighting for the integrity of the Union was. And just how many slave owners do you think lived in the South? It wasn't a majority and some were black. But since the winners write the history books, ever since then, we have been taught that the war was fought to rid the country of the morally reprehensible practice of slavery, when in fact it had to do with resistance to the overstepping of governmental authority.

Be that as it may, I wonder what the ACLU people would have said if he had decided to burn an Iranian, Syrian or Libyan flag in the classroom. I bet they wouldn't have been as supportive then, would they.

 

[Major Blood]

whoops...not sure what happened there...

I got the second round man! What's your poison?

I hear what you're saying, but I have to respectfully disagree. I do believe you can support the troops and not the men commanding them, just as I believe you can support those hardworking stiffs on the job next to you and not support or have faith in management.

And I think the main point of contention in our opinions is rooted in what we believe we are fighting this war for and why. Again, we were never in any danger of being invaded by Iraq. The threat of a ground war on American soil hasn't been viable since WWII and even then it would have been an iffy proposition. The mass stockpiles of WMDs never materialized to any significant degree, so that reason's out. And considering the man responsible for this whole "War on Terror" and the world's most wanted mass murderer is still out there playing golf somewhere (and according to recent news reports, listening to Whitney Houston songs while he's at it...lol), the reason our young men and women are dying in Iraq on a daily basis becomes even more mysterious to me.

And to think the only reason a good quarter of the world doesn't support us, and why many Arab nations despise us, is simply because they don't approve of our way of life is a nice, easy cop-out. It's a proven fact that terrorists are created, but nobody wants to see what created them. I'm sure there are some out there who hate us just because, but for the most part it's our foreign policy that gets us a bad rap. Our dogged, blind support and financing of Israel, for example. The whole Islamist fundamentalist movement is a smoke screen, most of those "holy men" are smoking cuban cigars, listening to american music and who knows what else behind closed doors. These men are unspeakably wealthy, and as we all know wealth and power corrupts. These zealots play the religion card to moblize the poor and less educated masses to their twisted cause, just like the zealots here do. At the end of the day, it's all a bunch of hot air, and the true motivation lies not in "destroying the western infidels" as they spout, but is just your old fashioned attempt at a power grab. It's a shame that many of the reasonable and legitimate arguments put forth by some of these nations get swept up and grouped into the same category of these nut jobs. An even bigger shame that the cause of the people usually takes a back seat to the personal ambitions of whatever idiot falsely takes up their cause and becomes their recognized leader.

 

[Sixgun]

When are the "Can't we all get along?" liberals going to realize that you can't negotiate with hate filled people whose objective is to destroy every trace of you regardless of what you do? Remember 9/11? We were ATTACKED! While the political reasons we are at war in Iraq and Afghanistan may be a bit murky, the tactical realities of war there means we don't have suicide bombers running around OUR cities. As long as we keep putting the pressure on them in their own backyard, they will fight us in their own backyard and are less likely to be able to plan and successfully carry out a major attack on America. The UN should have stayed out of Israels way and let them finish Hezbollah off. Instead, they raise the status of a terrorist group by "negotiating a peace settlement." All it did was take the pressure off so they can regroup and attack again. The UN; ally of terrorists (as are the liberals).

 

[Major Blood]

Spoken like a true cowboy, sixgun.

First off, I'm not a liberal. Nor am I a conservative. Both parties are equally corrupt, inept and utterly out of touch with the common man. I'm a man, first and foremost, and as such I don't shy away from looking inward for a solution to a problem when the situation warrants it, and when the status quo has failed miserably or worsened the situation.

Here's a newsflash, pay attention closely: YOU WILL NEVER WIN A TRADITIONAL WAR AGAINST AN ENEMY THAT WELCOMES DEATH, PERIOD. No matter how many bombs we drop, no matter how many troops we send, no matter how many rallies or parades we organize. When are you going to realize this? Yes, we were attacked. So why are we not vigorously pursuing that attacker with the same zeal that this govt. used to procure billions of dollars of funding (that we can't afford) to jump start this little war on terror? You expect me to believe that this country can't find him? They can pull Saddam out of a rathole in the middle of nowhere, they can count the change in your pocket from outer space, yet they can't find the most visible, wanted man in the world? "Sheeple" seems to be a favorite buzzword of the conservative supporters to describe liberals, I guess it takes one to know one. I'm all for hunting down those who attacked and killed thousands of innocent people right here on our own soil. The very thought that it happened still angers me to the extreme. But here's another newsflash, and again pay attention so you don't miss it: IRAQ NEVER ATTACKED US, AND HAD NO CONNECTION TO 9/11. So stop using that horrible day as an excuse to give this govt. carte blanche to attack whomever it pleases, you're disgracing the memory of those who lost their lives in the attack and rescue attempts that day, not honoring it.

As far as Israel, I won't even go too deep into that one, other than to say we should have never endorsed the mass exodus of displaced European Jews onto land occupied by Arabs for hundreds if not thousands of years in the first place. They should have resettled the regions of Europe they were displaced from, not make a claim on land they had no right, other than a questionable "Biblical" one, to settle. If our enemies did the same we would call them invaders, but the Israelis we call "settlers". Alot of mistreated people throughout history have demanded their own sovereign state, and with the exception of Native Americans (who got the jip anyway with the reservations compared to what they had), all were basically laughed into submission. What makes the Jews deserving of preferential treatment? And just what in the hell makes it the responsibilty of American taxpayers?

Maybe you can explain that one to me, seeing as how you're such a proud, pro-American conservative....why are we sending hundreds of millions of dollars of foreign aid to Israel every year while our own children are attending worn down schools with antiquated materials? Why are our mother, fathers, and grandparents struggling to afford the medication they need? Let's get our priorities straight before we go trying to 'save the world' or come to anyone's rescue...how's that for Pro-American?

 

[Sixgun]

I've no argument as far as foreign aid goes. Cut all of it off. We can spend it at home. We are going to have to agree to disagree on who has rights to the Middle East. Personally, I think the Israelis deserve it more than the murdering Palestinians, which, for that matter, have NEVER been a country. I am not using 9/11 as an excuse for attacking Iraq. I am just stating the fact that we were attacked by terrorists on our homeland. I was not making excuses or justifying the war in Iraq. Any war in the Middle East, whether initially justified or not (I believe it was) will keep the terrorists busy THERE against people equipped to deal with them appropriately, instead of HERE where there are lots of people NOT equipped to deal with them, and that is a good thing.

 

[Sixgun]

And "sixgun" refers to how many I carry, not necessarilly my preferred type.

(Just kidding a little bit).

 

[Sixgun]

Peace is achieved when one side is utterly annihilated.

 

[Major Blood]

yeah, it looks like we'll have to agree to disagree. Personally, I feel had their been no interlopers on their land, whether they chose to draw a border around it or not, there would have been no one for them to "murder". Also, footage of kids with barely shirts on their backs throwing stones against tanks and other armored vehicles, long before they had the means to carry out sucide bombings, speaks volumes more than any political spinster as far as determining who the original aggressors were, but again, I respectfully agree to disagree with you on that point.

And thank goodness you were kidding a bit there...that'd be SOME shoulder harness! You'd need a special compartment for the Ben-Gay...

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

Spoken like a true cowboy, sixgun.

First off, I'm not a liberal. Nor am I a conservative. Both parties are equally corrupt, inept and utterly out of touch with the common man. I'm a man, first and foremost, and as such I don't shy away from looking inward for a solution to a problem when the situation warrants it, and when the status quo has failed miserably or worsened the situation.

Here's a newsflash, pay attention closely: YOU WILL NEVER WIN A TRADITIONAL WAR AGAINST AN ENEMY THAT WELCOMES DEATH, PERIOD. No matter how many bombs we drop, no matter how many troops we send, no matter how many rallies or parades we organize. When are you going to realize this? Yes, we were attacked. So why are we not vigorously pursuing that attacker with the same zeal that this govt. used to procure billions of dollars of funding (that we can't afford) to jump start this little war on terror? You expect me to believe that this country can't find him? They can pull Saddam out of a rathole in the middle of nowhere, they can count the change in your pocket from outer space, yet they can't find the most visible, wanted man in the world? "Sheeple" seems to be a favorite buzzword of the conservative supporters to describe liberals, I guess it takes one to know one. I'm all for hunting down those who attacked and killed thousands of innocent people right here on our own soil. The very thought that it happened still angers me to the extreme. But here's another newsflash, and again pay attention so you don't miss it: IRAQ NEVER ATTACKED US, AND HAD NO CONNECTION TO 9/11. So stop using that horrible day as an excuse to give this govt. carte blanche to attack whomever it pleases, you're disgracing the memory of those who lost their lives in the attack and rescue attempts that day, not honoring it.

As far as Israel, I won't even go too deep into that one, other than to say we should have never endorsed the mass exodus of displaced European Jews onto land occupied by Arabs for hundreds if not thousands of years in the first place. They should have resettled the regions of Europe they were displaced from, not make a claim on land they had no right, other than a questionable "Biblical" one, to settle. If our enemies did the same we would call them invaders, but the Israelis we call "settlers". Alot of mistreated people throughout history have demanded their own sovereign state, and with the exception of Native Americans (who got the jip anyway with the reservations compared to what they had), all were basically laughed into submission. What makes the Jews deserving of preferential treatment? And just what in the hell makes it the responsibilty of American taxpayers?

Maybe you can explain that one to me, seeing as how you're such a proud, pro-American conservative....why are we sending hundreds of millions of dollars of foreign aid to Israel every year while our own children are attending worn down schools with antiquated materials? Why are our mother, fathers, and grandparents struggling to afford the medication they need? Let's get our priorities straight before we go trying to 'save the world' or come to anyone's rescue...how's that for Pro-American?

Note to self......be sure to put away sufficient arms and ammo for your grandchildren.......they'll be fighting them(liberals and muslim fanatics) in our streets in the future.....no doubt about it.

 

[dwarven1]

Also, I don't want anyone to think I don't have faith in the colors of our flag. I have enormous faith in the potential those flags represent, and the concept they are meant to symbolize, but you have to realize not everyone sees the same things when they look at it. For me, being a minority, it's a mixed bag. On the one hand, there's a sense of pride, and on the other, a sense of disappointment. I've seen that flag waved while people were being hung from trees, my own grandfather, and several others of his generation, was one of the many that fought to keep us from speaking german or japanese, yet came home and was never afforded the rights and freedoms he was willing to die protecting. The fact is, and this isn't meant to be racist at all, but your average white male American has no reason to not blindly support that flag as it's ideals were typically reserved for him, at the exclusion of women and non-whites. But you have to realize, some people in this country have not ony fought for those rights overseas, but have also had to fight their own govt. at home to get the benefit of those rights. It's a matter of perspective.

Very true... my mother tells me that when they first looked to buy a house in Fair Lawn, NJ, back in the early 50's, there was a sign up in one neighborhood they looked at: "No dogs or Jews".

There are many types of minorities, and some have been discriminated against longer than others.