Springfield M1A

[Boston-Irish]

Hey Guys,

I am looking to buy a Springfield M1A. I have always wanted one, but usually pissed the money away once I got to $1,000.
Not this time... I am holding strong ( I might have to sell my Saiga 12 to get there!).
The one thing I can't find is range reports, background pro's and con's etc. I have tried google searches etc. I keep coming up short on hard facts. I know some of you guys have them.... any help, links or useful info would be great!
Thanks in advance!!

 

[M1911]

I've got one. Good gun. Quite accurate out of the box. Good trigger out of the box. Preban magazines are available. The stock peep sights are excellent. Lots of gunsmiths know how to tune them if desired.

It is big and relatively heavy. Recoil is moderate for the round. Not that easy to mount a scope.

I prefer my M1A to my FAL clone. Lots of people (including those with far more experience in nasty places than I) swear by the FAL. I swear at it. The FAL receiver is overly long, putting the handguard too far away for my 32" sleeve-length arms. FAL fans site the adjustable gas system as one of its strengths. I suggest that, combined with the dust cover, the adjustable gas system is one of the FALs weaknesses. If you have the FAL gas port open too far, then you won't get enough oomph to fully extract and the empty cartridge case gets stuck between the dust cover and bolt carrier. Now your gun is well and truly jammed. Yes, I've experienced that twice; not cool.

In addition, the trigger on a FAL is not as good as the M1A and you won't find many gunsmiths who will work on it. In my experience, the FAL magazines are not as sturdy as the M1A mags as well.

A couple downsides to the M1A -- 1) it is more fiddly to take down, 2) to get utmost accuracy you'll need to bed the wood stock. A composite stock for the M1A would be a good idea, but is not needed. Mine shoots < 2 MOA out of the box with my tired eyes, my poor technique, and the stock peep sights.

 

[PatMcD]

Definitely buy one; you won't be disappointed. Get the full-length, standard barrel (the way the designers' intended). Accuracy will be quite good out of the box and can be improved upon pretty easily if you want more. Keep it greased, and they are extremely reliable.

I don't know of any downside to the standard models (other than their HIGH cost).

 

[Boston-Irish]

Thanks guys...
Yeah, I am looking at the synthetic stock model with the match upgrades. I am going to have to part with my Saiga 12 to scrape the last of the funds together, but I am definitely excited to get one.
I'm going to try putting my Saiga up for sale here first and with any luck I will be able to pick up the M1a in a couple of weeks.
Thans again... have a good one!

 

[FPrice]

I bought a "loaded" M1A from Four Seasons a few years back and even though I haven't fired it that much it seems to be a great out-of-the-box rifle. Carl usually has them for around $1500 when they are in. I'd try him first.

 

[rewster]

Try this site for info.

http://www.m14firinglineforum.com/upload/


regards....roger

 

[calsdad]

I have an M1A with the stainless barrel - got it from a guy here on NES. Check out the forums - they do show up occasionally.

The M14firingline forums previously mentioned is a great place for more info on M1A/M14 rifles.

I would also recommend getting a copy of Boston's Gun Bible (it is on Amazon). He goes into a pretty detailed evaluation of a number of different "battle rifles" - and he rates the M14/M1A is his favorite - but it just barely edges out the FAL.

The Boston book mentions that M1A's have a cast receiver - vs. a forged receiver (like the milspec rifles would have). Cast receivers can stretch and make the rifle either inoperable - or unsafe to operate. The guys on M14 firing line might better be able to address this concern though.

If you are worried about spending your $1000 on something else - and you can't find an M1A soon enough to overcome the urge - why not go to CMP and get yourself a Garand? The M14 was based on the Garand - the 30.06 ammo for the Garand is cheaper by the case from CMP than 7.62x51 is at the moment. And one of the best grade Garand's from CMP is around $950 - so you can spend that $1000 before it walks away and gets spent on something else:

Check out the Correct Grades:
http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/m1garand.htm

Plus they will ship it to your door. There is nothing better than having the FedEx truck in your driveway delivering a box with a rifle in it.

 

[Rockrivr1]

You cannot go wrong with an SA M1A. The standard out of the box model is good, but for just a little more you can get the "Loaded" model, which comes with many upgrades. Including it being bedded with the synthetic stock. This is the model I purchased. At 150 yrds I can repeatedly hit clay pigeons off of the bench with iron sights.

This rifle is one of my two most accurate rifles. Good luck.

 

[Big Daddy 45acp]

Bought mine almost 10 years ago. Loaded package with stainless barrel.

The stainless barrel is starting to turn blue! Probably 10-15000 rounds through it without a problem.

Accurate and fun to shoot. Now that my boy is "legal", I may have lost that rifle to him!

Had my Dad shoot it a few years back. He carried an M14E2 in SE Asia. Once the muscle memory kicked in after 40 years, he kept trying to flip the selector switch to auto! Other than that, he said it was just like the 14's he carried and used in 'Nam.

Save your pennies and buy it!

 

[PatMcD]

The Boston book mentions that M1A's have a cast receiver - vs. a forged receiver (like the milspec rifles would have). Cast receivers can stretch and make the rifle either inoperable - or unsafe to operate. The guys on M14 firing line might better be able to address this concern though.

Don't worry about a cast reciever. You aren't going to wear it out and it definitely isn't going to stretch.

 

[nanerclip]

Get the SA and don't look back. SA's M1A's are the cheapest option for a current production M-14 clone and they are a fine rifle. Their M1A's are built up with current production cast parts. Their cast receiver is fine. The other cast parts (main concerns being the FCG, OpRod, & BC) can be swapped out with GI parts if you don't feel comfortable with them.

The only current production M-14 built to spec using mil spec parts and forged receiver is made by LRB Arms, but they are almost double the price of a standard model SA M1A.

Another option for current production is Fulton Armory. Their M-14's are built using GI/spec parts but are built up on FA's own cast receiver (which is perfectly fine). Price is around equal to the LRB rifles.

 

[calsdad]

Don't worry about a cast reciever. You aren't going to wear it out and it definitely isn't going to stretch.

I got that from Boston's Gun Bible. He takes a slightly different tack in his recommendations that many people. He is basically coming at it from the viewpoint of actually having to use the rifle in a SHTF situation -and factors in the possibility that there may be gun bans that prevent you from replacing the firearm. He is taking a "my life is going to depend on this rifle" stance, so he is recommending the absolute best.

You are right - the LRB stuff is about twice the price of a Springfield Armory model.

It's good to know I should be able to get 15000 rounds out of mine - I haven't come anywhere near that yet.

 

[NorthshoreMick]

I got that from Boston's Gun Bible. He takes a slightly different tack in his recommendations that many people. He is basically coming at it from the viewpoint of actually having to use the rifle in a SHTF situation

Ken Royce has never been in a SHTF situation .

The M1a is 10 times the rifle as an fal , with less parts and better sights .

 

[calsdad]

Ken Royce has never been in a SHTF situation .

The M1a is 10 times the rifle as an fal , with less parts and better sights .

I have never shot an FAL - but I was thinking of getting one before I got the M1A - and I read numerous reviews where people thought the ergonomics were crappy (bad cheek weld, etc.). The parts thing bothered me too. Less is pretty much always better. M1A/M14's and Garands always get mentioned as having some of the best sights out there.

 

[M1911]

I have never shot an FAL - but I was thinking of getting one before I got the M1A - and I read numerous reviews where people thought the ergonomics were crappy (bad cheek weld, etc.). The parts thing bothered me too. Less is pretty much always better. M1A/M14's and Garands always get mentioned as having some of the best sights out there.

As I said above, lots of folks with real experience (unlike me, a keyboard commando) sing the FAL's praises. I just don't get it. The sights on the FAL suck. The FAL trigger sucks. I've had FAL magazines dump their contents at my feet. The FAL is much too nose heavy. The FAL receiver is too long. The FAL is the only rifle I've ever had jam up so hard I had to bring it to a gunsmith to make it serviceable again.

I suppose there is something there, but for the life of me I just don't see it.

 

[Big Daddy 45acp]

I have known a few Vietnam Vets who were in-country during the M14/M16 transition. I would say 90% preferred the M14 to the M16.

Hell, my Dad risked a Court Martial to take his back from the Armory. Yes, he took it back!
He figured even Leavenworth was better and safer!

Also, the newer technologies for casting metals are supposed to give the receivers the same strength as called by forged receivers in 1950's Military specifications.

If the SHTF, I am grabbing my M1A and stacking mags.

 

[MassMark]

The cast Springfield Armory receiver will outlive you...Your grandchildren will be wringing .308 out of it on Mars....

 

[calsdad]

As I said above, lots of folks with real experience (unlike me, a keyboard commando) sing the FAL's praises. I just don't get it. The sights on the FAL suck. The FAL trigger sucks. I've had FAL magazines dump their contents at my feet. The FAL is much too nose heavy. The FAL receiver is too long. The FAL is the only rifle I've ever had jam up so hard I had to bring it to a gunsmith to make it serviceable again.

I suppose there is something there, but for the life of me I just don't see it.

There must be something to it - the FAL was adopted by far more countries - and was in service far longer, than the M14 ever was. I have read here and there that the quality of FAL's that we civilians get can vary widely. Many were used and abused imports that were brought in as parts and "mixmaster'd" together by the importers.

To me anyway the FAL is still a little bit "sexier" than the M1A since it has that black rifle appeal. I have heard pretty much nothing but praise for the FAL's produced by DSA - and if I have the money I may still get an FAL. A side by side comparison would be far more useful than any debates us keyboard commandos might have.

 

[FalArAk]

Save your money and get a LRB or Fulton Armory M1A,Springfields are junk compared to these.

Or,if ya want a real battle rifle capable of accepting ANY .308 ammo,get a DSA FAL.

As I said above, lots of folks with real experience (unlike me, a keyboard commando) sing the FAL's praises. I just don't get it. The sights on the FAL suck. The FAL trigger sucks. I've had FAL magazines dump their contents at my feet. The FAL is much too nose heavy. The FAL receiver is too long. The FAL is the only rifle I've ever had jam up so hard I had to bring it to a gunsmith to make it serviceable again.

I suppose there is something there, but for the life of me I just don't see it.

What did you get,a Hesse or a parts gun put together by someone who had no idea what they were doing ? I don't blame you for shying away from FAL's after that experience.

The trigger does suck,but it's a $65.00 fix.

 

[Boston-Irish]

I've read a little about Fulton Armory, but have never met anyone who has one. Forgive my ignorance, but who is LRB?
I recently fondled a G3 and was quite impressed with the fit and finnish compared to the Century imports with the ugly welds and poor finnish (I know, function over fashion.... but doesn't always apply. ie fat chick at a frat party at 2:00am... meets the function but not the fashion) =)

 

[PatMcD]

I've owned both FAL's and M14-types.
FAL's are way up there in the "cool" factor. I like how they break open to clean like an AR. Generally very reliable. Sights and trigger are way too crude. Sights also have a short radius. Buy a lot of surplus ammo to go with one, because they are really fun to unload 20-rds at a time. Never known one to shoot better than 2-3MOA. Plenty good enough for getting the job done, but not something you want to enter a competition with. For me, the gas system is a system designed to fail. I don't want to have to worry about what my system is set at and is it open enough to cycle because my rifle my be shooting some really dirty ammo, etc., etc.. If I found another FAL at a good price, I would buy it.

For me the M14 is a more versatile platform. Very reliable rifle. The only FTF I've ever had with one was when my match rifle spit out the extractor (my fault: M14 and M1 extractors are not exactly the same). You can blast away at clay birds at 50yds with just as much fun as the FAL. You can also use it as a very accurate target rifle. I've owned probably a half-dozen or so over the years. A couple of M1A's, a couple of Chinese ones, and a Smith Enterprise. I still have a Norinco and the Smith.
As for longevity in service, the M14 has been there for 50 years now? Who is using the FAL?

 

[8thring]

m1a vs fal carbine

just a few things to consider. in 1984 i bought a loaded ultra match m1a built on a early springfield armory receiver which also came with a b-square scope mount. the time this gun went for over $1000. the person needed money so he sold it to me for $600. the best i did was 5 shots in 1.25 inches at 100 yards using a luepold 3x9 variable scope, which went for $160 then. i still have and shoot this gun today. it works flawlesly with 168 gr. national match bullet loads using 4895 powder. some m1as do not function well accuracy wise, depending on how they are set up,with 150 gr bullets; use for plinking only.
i also have a dsa stg58 fal carbine which also works great [got it for $950 4 years ago]. it is accurate enough but a very portable powerhouse in the field; the mia ultra match with scope is bulky and heavy to carry, best for offhand, bench or prone shooting. love them both.

p.s.; other 80's "good old days deals"
valmet 76 ak with folding tube stock with 4 30 round .223 mags on a closeout for $475 total [still have this gun]. h&k p7: $500, s&w model 36 airwieght: $175. shiloh sharps 45-70 semi custom; $800 [still have this gun]. all new in box

 

[calsdad]

I've read a little about Fulton Armory, but have never met anyone who has one. Forgive my ignorance, but who is LRB?
I recently fondled a G3 and was quite impressed with the fit and finnish compared to the Century imports with the ugly welds and poor finnish (I know, function over fashion.... but doesn't always apply. ie fat chick at a frat party at 2:00am... meets the function but not the fashion) =)

http://www.lrbarms.com/

They make what they claim is the only hammer-forged receivers for M14 type rifles.

They also make a receiver with the holes to build an M25 style sniper rifle.

I believe the original M14's were built with hammer forged receivers. Most of the current day reproductions are built with cast receivers which are then heat treated. I am not a metallurgist but - in most cases I believe forged is the ultimate best option. But a casting with the proper heat treating can be almost as good.

I am sure some google searching could give you the answers as to what the benefit of forgings are over castings.

 

[FalArAk]

Who is using the FAL?

Something like 90 countries all over the world,can't remember exactely.

Don't get me wrong,I love the M14/M1A,but for an all purpose battle rifle that is maybe a few ounces heavier than my M4 type (I have a DSA SA58 18"),you can't beat the power to weight ratio of a FAL vs an M1A.

To each his own,I love them all

 

[calsdad]

Something like 90 countries all over the world,can't remember exactely.

Don't get me wrong,I love the M14/M1A,but for an all purpose battle rifle that is maybe a few ounces heavier than my M4 type (I have a DSA SA58 18"),you can't beat the power to weight ratio of a FAL vs an M1A.

To each his own,I love them all

All right - all right, I will have to go buy a nice DSA FAL too - are you happy now?

 

[FalArAk]

All right - all right, I will have to go buy a nice DSA FAL too - are you happy now?

Only if you post pics after getting it will I only truely be happy.

 

[M1911]

What did you get,a Hesse or a parts gun put together by someone who had no idea what they were doing ? I don't blame you for shying away from FAL's after that experience.

The trigger does suck,but it's a $65.00 fix.

Greg:

Mine was built by a fellow who had built quite a few. It is an Imbel receiver and an stg58 parts kit, and enough US parts (mostly from DS Arms) so that it doesn't need a thumbhole stock.

If you look at my criticisms, however, I think you'll find that most of them are a function of the design of the gun, not the quality of the parts or construction of my particular example. The FAL receiver is overly long, putting the front handguard too far forward. That also makes the FAL front heavy. The FAL sights suck compared to the M1A/M14. The combination of the adjustable gas regulation and the dust cover is a very, very bad jam just waiting to happen -- all it takes is for you to misadjust the gas regulator.

You can jam ANY FAL this way. It isn't a consequence of it being poorly put together. Just adjust your FAL's gas regulator so that not enough oomph gets to the bolt carrier. Then the empty cartridge case is not completely ejected and gets stuck between the bolt carrier and the dust cover. Now you are well and truly in deep kimchee. If you now put the stock of your FAL on the ground and kick the cocking handle, if you are lucky you will be able to unjam the gun and keep fighting. If you are not lucky, you just broke your cocking handle and the FAL is still jammed up tight. Hope you have a pistol on your belt. This is not an academic situation. It has happened to me twice (fortunately while on a shooting range, not in extremis).

As you may know, John Farnam is a big proponent of the FAL. In November, he wrote a brief article about FALs and gas regulation and he received feedback from DSArms:

01 Nov 07

These sage comments on FAL gas adjustment from my friend and colleague, John Krupa, Director of Training for DSA:

"Not knowing that one can control gas-flow on this weapon has led to countless customer-service calls to DSA, complaining that the rifle 'doesn't work.' The following is laid out in great detail in the Owners's Manual, of course, but we are happy to explain to each owner how the gas-regulator works and then walk them through correct gas-regulator adjustment. Invariably, whenwe' re finished, like a miracle, the rifle suddenly runs fine!

(1) The gas vent is directly behind the base of the front sight. We start the process with the gas-regulator set to the full-open position, which is # 7 on the gas-regulator dial. The vent-hole will be visibly open all the way. Next, we start to close off the gas-regulator vent by turning the dial clockwise two clicks, which will place it at # 6. You will now see that the vent hole is partially occluded. From here, we can start our live-fire, function testing.

(2) Charge a magazine with a single round of ammunition. Insert the magazine into the rifle and chamber the round. Holding the rifle in a normal, standing position (bench-resting is not recommended) aim into the impact area and fire one round. When the bolt fails to lock back, not enough gas is driving the piston into the bolt group for a complete cycle of operation. So, close the gas regulator another, single click, which will put it at 5 1/2, and then repeat the one-shot drill. Continue to close off the gas-regulator, a click at a time, until consistent (three in a row) bolt-lock is achieved

(2) When the bolt thus consistently locks to the rear after firing a single round, insert a magazine charged with five rounds, load the rifle, and fire all five in rapid succession. Once again, the bolt needs to unfailingly lock to the rear as the last round is fired.

(3) Once your rifle passes the 'five-round test,' close thegas-regulator two more clicks! The gas regulator is now 'set.' Just about all rifles we issue for student use have a final set at 4 to 4 . That is pretty standard.

(4) When the rifle gets hot, dry, and dirty, and starts short-cycling, you can use the gas-regulator dial to quickly make incremental increases in gas pressure, instantly restoring the rifle to normal functioning.

I don't recommend closing the gas-regulator completely, as you suggested in your last Quip, unless absolutely necessary. What concerns me is not excessive wear-and-tear on the rifle. The DSA/FAL is a robust, military rifle that is designed for heavy use in hostile environments. It will take whatever you can give it! Nor is my concern with accuracy. Practical accuracy is unaffected by gas-regulator adjustments. Nor is my concern with recoil attenuation. Soft recoil is nice, but we can all handle recoil. The real problem is with case-extraction that is so violent it may result in cases being literally pulled apart as the bolt moves to the rear. The front half of the case may thus be left in the chamber, resulting in a stoppage that cannot be corrected in the short term.

With regard to ammunition:

Ammunition quality is all over the map! Ammunition from dubious sources, reloads for example, typically exhibit inconsistent head-space and inconsistent pressure. DSA, of course, recommends against the use of such poor-quality ammunition, except in exigent circumstances."

Comment: John K is the resident expert, and I will surely defer to his judgement on this issue, and my advice to FAL owners is that they adhere tohis, foregoing, instructions.

The thorny issue is, of course, "exigent circumstances!" When I have my FAL, some magazines, and a supply of ammunition about which I know little, and I 've been invited to participate in a fight that is starting immediately, best bet is to begin with a rifle whose gas-regulator is closed off. I'll put up with recoil, and I'll take my chances with case-separation, just as long as I can be assured my rifle will complete each cycle of operation.

Conversely, when I know what ammunition I'm going to feed it, and Ihave time to go through the foregoing gas-regulator adjustment routine, and a range where I can do the mandatory live-fire, I will surely tune my weapon to maximum advantage. No contestation there.

Of all dubious ammunition, the most suspect is reloads. Cases that have been reloaded multiple times are stretched, weakened, and thin in spots. They are the ones most prone to case-separation, described above, and inspection may not be helpful. From the outside, one can seldom tell if a case wall is dangerously thin. "Once-fired-reloads" is a commonly-used platitude, but how can anyone really know how many times a particular case has been reloaded? Reloads are thus not recommended for use in any autoloading rifle.

So, if you have the FAL gas regulation system giving not enough energy to the bolt carrier, you can jam the gun. If you give it too much energy, you can tear up the case, also jamming the gun. Both jams may not be fixable in the field.

In contrast, the detailed procedure for adjusting the M1A gas system is:

1. load it.
2. shoot it.
3. repeat.

The M1A has no dust cover so incomplete extraction cannot jam up the gun tight like on a FAL. Remind me again why the FAL adjustable gas system is such a great advantage?

The stock FAL trigger sucks compared to a stock M1A trigger.

Who can fix FAL triggers? I haven't found anyone who would work on one.

 

[FalArAk]

You don't fix the trigger,you replace it with this setup here. This setup was installed and tested by someone with a LOT of experience with FAL's, and if I didn't have a speed trigger on my DSA,I would install this trigger.

As far as your other points,they are good ones.Pesonally, if I had the choice between an M1A and a FAL if I was the designated marksman of a platoon, I would pick the M1A.If I had to carry around a .308 all day as a regular 11B,I would pick a FAL.They are two differant rifles which serve 2 differant purposes.

A guy was at HSC 2 weeks ago with a brand new SA M1A,beautiful weapon.Only problem was it was plagued with problems.Bottom line is the rifle is back at SA being fixed.I guess this is my main problem with Garands and M1A's from Springfield,the end user doubles as the quality control.Another guy at my club had the same problems with his Garand,he sent it back as well.Once he got the Garand back,it functioned flawlessly.

If I had only one choice after weighing all the benefits and drawbacks of each weapon,I would buy a FAL..which I did.

If money wasn't an option,I would get both

Believe me,if I had the cash I would place an order with LRB right now.

 

[MassMark]

Save your money and get a LRB or Fulton Armory M1A,Springfields are junk compared to these.

Nonsense. Though LRB and Fulton Armory, (Armscorp receivers), certainly are beautiful rifles, they do not relegate Springfield Armory into "junk" status - not by a long shot. Springfield Armory's production eclipses that of LRB and Armscorp combined, so obviously their ratio of problem rifles will be higher. However, buying an LRB, Fulton, Armscorp or any other M1A/M14 does not guarantee you a problem-free rifle. Just as buying a DSA FAL does not. A member at my range bought a brand spanking new DSA on the advice of his buddy who was in the quarter-million round range with his. The brand spanking new DSA was functionally junk. Does that mean DSA is garbage? Not by a long shot - it simply means that much like toasters, cars, lawnmowers and remote controls, feces occurs....

I would love to have a custom built SEI CrazyHorse on an LRB receiver. This despite reading more than one thread about non functioning SEI's/LRB's that needed repeated trips back to Smith and/or LRB. Perhaps one day I will. In the meantime however, I would not hesitate to buy another Springfield Armory. My M1A SOCOM has had well over 8,000 trouble free rounds. Those who have fired it at the NES Members Shoots, can attest to how smooth an reliable a rifle it is. The quality is there, the accuracy is there, the reliability is there, the price-point is there and SA has a lifetime warranty - Fulton, LRB, Armscorp, SEI do not. Considering buying even a Fulton Armory will set you back over $1,000.00 more than a comparable Springfield Armory rifle, it's often a smart way to go to enjoy the benefits of an M1A/M14 rifle.

Lastly, having had direct contact with Walt Kuleck on this very subject, LRB receivers are not his first choice in custom builds on hammer forged receivers. In fact his most recent publication revolves around often excellent Chinese forged receivers and Fulton receivers are cast, by the way.

 

[FalArAk]

Ya know,I was going to go back and edit my post a while ago when referring to SA's as junk.That was definately too strong a word to use in my description,but I let it stand incase someone quoted me before I could edit it out.

I have just witnessed first hand the problems that come out of SA in regards to the M1A's and Garands.Granted,sending them back will get them fixed,but when spending over $1K on a weapon,you shouldn't have to fix it.My DSA wasn't perfect either,I had to bend the dust cover and grind down the takedown pin,so nothing is absolutely perfect.

In regards to your SOCOM,I have never heard of any problems with those.I have fired a few and I do like them.They are heavy in comparison to a FAL,but they look kinda cool.

Whenever you get to Harvard,LMK and you can check out my FAL.