Supreme Court - NYSRPA v. Bruen - Megathread

[SFC13557]

The federal courts. Do you think the MA AGs office negotiated 42 USC 1983 settlements with Comm2a in two cases because they thought payment was optional and they wanted to do the right thing?

The Ma. AG's office is rational, they didn't draw a line in the sand to defy SCOTUS like NY did. Maura issued "guidelines" to LEO's to comply with Bruen if I remember correctly. Maura's not willing to go down with the ship, she's not an irrational Leftist.

 

[pastera]

The Ma. AG's office is rational, they didn't draw a line in the sand to defy SCOTUS like NY did. Maura issued "guidelines" to LEO's to comply with Bruen if I remember correctly. Maura's not willing to go down with the ship, she's not an irrational Leftist.

Which is why while they may drag their feet for a while once there is clear direction from the courts Mass will comply with that direction.
When mag limits are decided, Mass will comply
When AWBs fall, Mass will comply
And if the NFA falls I'm building a short barreled, suppressed machine gun the next day

 

[EJFudd]

Which is why while they may drag their feet for a while once there is clear direction from the courts Mass will comply with that direction.
When mag limits are decided, Mass will comply
When AWBs fall, Mass will comply
And if the NFA falls I'm building a short barreled, suppressed machine gun the next day

Don't hold your breath.

 

[pastera]

Don't hold your breath.

For NFA to fall - yeah that's a long shot
Everything else is in the pipeline

 

[EJFudd]

For NFA to fall - yeah that's a long shot
Everything else is in the pipeline

Well, I certainly hope you are right. But as I've posted elsewhere, I am not nearly as optimistic as you are.

I see it as a battle between the stated desires of the firmly anti-2A MA Legislature to destroy us next session... vs. how soon, if ever, the full and desired effects of Bruen can be brought to bear by the court system.

I don't like what I am hearing about how some courts are trying to interpret Bruen away. I think the fight is going to be a very long one here in MA.

 

[EJFudd]

The Ma. AG's office is rational, they didn't draw a line in the sand to defy SCOTUS like NY did. Maura issued "guidelines" to LEO's to comply with Bruen if I remember correctly. Maura's not willing to go down with the ship, she's not an irrational Leftist.

All that proves to me is that Maura is not out to lose the upcoming election over Bruen or any other "gun control" issue.

 

[SFC13557]

You can lead a horse to water. But you can’t make him drink.

This thread cites 42 examples of successful 1983 RKBA suits in MA. And that’s even BEFORE Bruen. But that doesn’t fit your narrative. So go ahead and ignore them.

Please get back to me when either NY begins issuing unrestricted LTC's or a NY Pol or employee is arrested and jailed for defying Bruen.

One more time, I am NOT disagreeing with your knowledge/interpretations of the Law and it's applications, I believe NY will do everything under its power to deny LTC's to NY residents. If you are correct and NY caves and starts issuing LTC's to residents and issues non-resident permit's, I'll be the first to apply. Then we can rent a bus and head to NY and I'll buy Hoover a beer. We could have a NES meetup at Katz Deli and I could piss off all the New Yorkers with my heavy Boston accent. "YANKEES SUCK!, YANKEES SUCK!" I'll wear my Red Sox World Series jacket and my Pat Patriot hat and we'll party like it's 1999!

I'll make reservations at Peter Luger's Steak House and we can celebrate with NY LTC holders. Boy would that piss off the anti's like Hochul, Mayor Adams, AOC, Schmucky Schumer, Maloney, etc. Haven't been to NYC since 2012 I believe when I had to spend 5 days at Ft. Hamilton for training.
Party on Dudes!

 

[SFC13557]

All that proves to me is that Maura is not out to lose the upcoming election over Bruen or any other "gun control" issue.

Correct! Maura has no challengers in Ma. so she has no need to go out on a limb unlike Hochul.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

And if the NFA falls I'm building a short barreled, suppressed machine gun the next day

It would also be necessary for the MA law against possession of cans by anyone other than a licensed manufacturer to fall as well.

 

[pastera]

Well, I certainly hope you are right. But as I've posted elsewhere, I am not nearly as optimistic as you are.

I see it as a battle between the stated desires of the firmly anti-2A MA Legislature to destroy us next session... vs. how soon, if ever, the full and desired effects of Bruen can be brought to bear by the court system.

I don't like what I am hearing about how some courts are trying to interpret Bruen away. I think the fight is going to be a very long one here in MA.

The more they flail about at the edges on the stupid stuff the tighter the definition of TH&T will become.
Yes, some states are trying to use racist colonial Era laws to try to justify infringement but they will get shot down immediately because you can't justify infringement based on a law already found to be an impermissible infringement.

 

[SFC13557]

It would also be necessary for the MA law against possession of cans by anyone other than a licensed manufacturer to fall as well.

Yup, not holding my breath. Watched episode on Outdoor Channel recently about Silencer Central, now I want one

 

[milktree]

Please get back to me when either NY begins issuing unrestricted LTC's or a NY Pol or employee is arrested and jailed for defying Bruen.

Section 1983 violations do not result in jail time. Section 1983 violations are "rectified" with money. The money comes from the person who made the violation. That could be a cop or civil servant or whatever, in his *PERSONAL* capacity. Not the state, not the police department. That's the threat. That if an official violates your rights (and knows they did, which is the case with Bruen) they cannot claim immunity. When they lose, they lose really, really big. It's a huge risk and none of those donks are willing to sacrifice their retirement savings and house and everything for a political stunt.

The fact that it hasn't happened yet is just because the court system is slow.

 

[EJFudd]

The more they flail about at the edges on the stupid stuff the tighter the definition of TH&T will become.
Yes, some states are trying to use racist colonial Era laws to try to justify infringement but they will get shot down immediately because you can't justify infringement based on a law already found to be an impermissible infringement.

I seem to be missing a key point here (which racist colonial era laws?), but time will tell (rather soon now) if the MA Legislature backs off from their promise or not.

 

[pastera]

I seem to be missing a key point here (which racist colonial era laws?), but time will tell (rather soon now) if the MA Legislature backs off from their promise or not.

In some territories there were laws against or restrictions on native Americans, free blacks and catholics bearing arms.
I don't remember which state was trying to use those laws as historical analogues for their restrictions but it did not go over well

 

[vicorjh]

In some territories there were laws against or restrictions on native Americans, free blacks and catholics bearing arms.
I don't remember which state was trying to use those laws as historical analogues for their restrictions but it did not go over well

On that note, I came upon the following:

Racist Gun Laws and the Second Amendment - Harvard Law Review

For a significant portion of American history, gun laws bore the ugly taint of racism. The founding generation that wrote the Second Amendment had...

harvardlawreview.org

 

[SFC13557]

Section 1983 violations do not result in jail time. Section 1983 violations are "rectified" with money. The money comes from the person who made the violation. That could be a cop or civil servant or whatever, in his *PERSONAL* capacity. Not the state, not the police department. That's the threat. That if an official violates your rights (and knows they did, which is the case with Bruen) they cannot claim immunity. When they lose, they lose really, really big. It's a huge risk and none of those donks are willing to sacrifice their retirement savings and house and everything for a political stunt.

The fact that it hasn't happened yet is just because the court system is slow.

And I'm sure the NY legal Eagles know that? You don't think they already have a fall guy/girl who's a dedicated anti-gun activist who has agreed to be the sacrificial lamb if need be? I'm sure their big anti-gun doner's have already set up a slush fund to "take care of" whomever decides to take one for the team.

As I've stated, these people are hard core and have a dedicated legal team (Brady Bunch, Bloomberg, Mommies against Gun Violence, etc.) with unlimited finances who have war gamed all potential scenarios. Yes, they know the court system is slow and that's part of their strategy. Kim Davis was briefly jailed for refusing to issue Marriage Licenses to a Homosexual couple I believe and will have a monetary judgement issued against her soon. Like I stated earlier she acted on her own, the NY Pols have mucho backing.
Waiting for more incoming tin foil hat comments!

 

[SFC13557]

In some territories there were laws against or restrictions on native Americans, free blacks and catholics bearing arms.
I don't remember which state was trying to use those laws as historical analogues for their restrictions but it did not go over well

And around 1918 there were signs in Boston saying, "IRISH NEED NOT APPLY". It was easier for a Colored Man to get a job in Boston than a filthy Papist. The Boston Brahmins hated Irish Catholics.

 

[Dennis in MA]

From Picton;
"
You file suit. In federal court. Then the presiding judge decides whether your case has merit, a jury is selected, and a trial follows. Then the "civil servant" who violated the SCOTUS ruling and, in the process, deprived you of your rights, gets a multimillion dollar judgement against him. Or her.

They probably offer to settle somewhere along the line. You smile and say, "Nope," because your case is as clear as a mountain stream.

And every other "civil servant" in the country takes a look at the judgement amount and decides, "Nah. I'm good. I think I'll stop standing in the way of RKBA, thanks. It's not worth my kid's college fund."

That's how lawsuits work, in essence. The enforcement mechanism is greed, basically."

Right, and every anti-gun group as well as every A list Hollyweird celebrity donates Millions to their defense fund, pays for A list lawyers and establishes a gofundme account to support the plaintiff and family. The Plaintiff becomes a Liberal celebrity, appears on CNN, MSNBC, the View and is hailed as the next Rosa Parks. These people aren't stupid, they play the long game.

I can see how you feel that way. But the tide has already turned. In a decade, gun ownership and gun crime will NOT be a pillar of the DNC platform. It won't even be mentioned. It will be analogous to being anti-free-speech. You look like a loon. Rest and enjoy the denouement. We all climaxed this summer.

 

[pastera]

And I'm sure the NY legal Eagles know that? You don't think they already have a fall guy/girl who's a dedicated anti-gun activist who has agreed to be the sacrificial lamb if need be? I'm sure their big anti-gun doner's have already set up a slush fund to "take care of" whomever decides to take one for the team.

As I've stated, these people are hard core and have a dedicated legal team (Brady Bunch, Bloomberg, Mommies against Gun Violence, etc.) with unlimited finances who have war gamed all potential scenarios. Yes, they know the court system is slow and that's part of their strategy. Kim Davis was briefly jailed for refusing to issue Marriage Licenses to a Homosexual couple I believe and will have a monetary judgement issued against her soon. Like I stated earlier she acted on her own, the NY Pols have mucho backing.
Waiting for more incoming tin foil hat comments!

How deep are they willing to reach into those pockets?
Continued non-compliance with a court order will result in massive financial hits and very likely some jail time for contempt.
One would hope there is someone dumb enough to push it to those levels and become the example not to follow

 

[Hoover]

I'm sure the good leftists of NY are terrified of lawsuits filed by gunowners that will go nowhere. I love how Justice Hoover keeps bringing up Kim Davis, a low level County Clerk who pissed off the Homosexual cabal. Hmmm, according to latest report 2 homosexual "couples" are suing her and she lost in a case dating back to 2015. So, 7-8 yrs later they win judgement for money which she doesn't have.

So according to the posters maybe in 7-10 yrs some low level clerk or a NY politician will be served papers because they refused to issue an LTC to a NY resident. Remember, Kim Davis acted on her own against the homosexual cabal, any NY State employee or Pol will have the full backing of the State govt. and anti-gun groups. Times on their side folks, please get back to me when NY, Ca., NJ, etc. issue unrestricted LTC's or a NY State employee or Pol is arrested and jailed.

I KNOW the law and unlike Picton, Hoover, etc. I have no faith the law will be applied because of GUNZ. This is a moral crusade on the leftists part and they have many dedicated followers in govt,, the halls of justice and Law enforcement in NY and the Biden Admin as well as Congress. You guys should know better being Ma. residents.

NY is already losing case in NY federal district court, they’re appealing to the 2nd circuit and will lose there too. They are issuing license in most counties. NYC and some liberal areas are issuing some but slower and more hoops

I don’t drink but thanks.

 

[Hoover]

From NJ and the moronic stuff they’re trying. They are passing a more restrictive bill than NY and will lose very badly in court.


View: https://mobile.twitter.com/MorosKostas/status/1585673646411956224

 

[Picton]

I don't like what I am hearing about how some courts are trying to interpret Bruen away.

What exactly are you hearing?

Please get back to me when either NY begins issuing unrestricted LTC's or a NY Pol or employee is arrested and jailed for defying Bruen.

You're seeing the effects already. Multiple posts in this thread cover the unwillingness of upstate LEOs to enforce more restrictive NYS laws. They're choosing not to enforce those NOT because they necessarily believe in RKBA; they're choosing not to enforce because they don't want to lose their house and their boat.

 

[Hoover]

What exactly are you hearing?

You're seeing the effects already. Multiple posts in this thread cover the unwillingness of upstate LEOs to enforce more restrictive NYS laws. They're choosing not to enforce those NOT because they necessarily believe in RKBA; they're choosing not to enforce because they don't want to lose their house and their boat.

I believe one judge in CA ignored SCOTUS but I forget the case. That’s the only one I’ve seen and that will get reversed on appeal.

 

[SFC13557]

What exactly are you hearing?



You're seeing the effects already. Multiple posts in this thread cover the unwillingness of upstate LEOs to enforce more restrictive NYS laws. They're choosing not to enforce those NOT because they necessarily believe in RKBA; they're choosing not to enforce because they don't want to lose their house and their boat.

That's Upstate and those LEO's already declared their unwillingness to go along with Albany on overly restrictive gun laws/requirements even before Bruen.

 

[SFC13557]

NY is already losing case in NY federal district court, they’re appealing to the 2nd circuit and will lose there too. They are issuing license in most counties. NYC and some liberal areas are issuing some but slower and more hoops

I don’t drink but thanks.

Really? Where in NYC are they issuing unrestricted permits?

If what you say is true Hoover than why are they spending taxpayer's money to appeal?

When Greg Gutfeld, Jessie Waters, Dagen McDowell produce their NYC carry permits I will buy you a case of your favorite non-alcoholic beverage shipped to your address with a card congratulating you on the restoration of your 2A rights.

Dagen McDowell stated on the Greg Gutfeld show this week she can't get a LTC in NYC and can't own a firearm for self-defense.

Gutfeld has stated he's been trying to get a LTC for over a year, he and his wife traveled to upstate NY for a weekend firearms course which included range time over a year ago and still can't purchase a firearm to keep in their NYC apartment.

I have no doubt Maura is keeping her powder dry for after her coronation, then she will assess the situation in NY and decide whether to join them or comply. I'm sure she has a plan and is meeting with her "staff" and writing her OPORD.

 

[Hoover]

Really? Where in NYC are they issuing unrestricted permits?

If what you say is true Hoover than why are they spending taxpayer's money to appeal?

When Greg Gutfeld, Jessie Waters, Dagen McDowell produce their NYC carry permits I will buy you a case of your favorite non-alcoholic beverage shipped to your address with a card congratulating you on the restoration of your 2A rights.

Dagen McDowell stated on the Greg Gutfeld show this week she can't get a LTC in NYC and can't own a firearm for self-defense.

Gutfeld has stated he's been trying to get a LTC for over a year, he and his wife traveled to upstate NY for a weekend firearms course which included range time over a year ago and still can't purchase a firearm to keep in their NYC apartment.

I have no doubt Maura is keeping her powder dry for after her coronation, then she will assess the situation in NY and decide whether to join them or comply. I'm sure she has a plan and is meeting with her "staff" and writing her OPORD.

NY is shall issue now, the lawsuits are over a number of issues including sensitive places, requiring people turnover social media account information etc.

 

[SFC13557]

I can see how you feel that way. But the tide has already turned. In a decade, gun ownership and gun crime will NOT be a pillar of the DNC platform. It won't even be mentioned. It will be analogous to being anti-free-speech. You look like a loon. Rest and enjoy the denouement. We all climaxed this summer.

Maybe, I hope you're right but as a Ma. resident and LTC holder for over 35 yrs. I've seen the illegal decrees/restrictions this State has imposed on us with no legal repercussions. AG's restricted gun roster, Maura's "ban" on AR's, Towns and cities making up their own "rules" for applying, receiving a LTC, Restricted Firearms licenses, etc. Different rules in different Towns/Cities for applying/renewing.
No Loon, just a jaded 67 yr old Ma**h*** who has seen/watched Ma. Pols pull every trick in the book on us and get away with it.

 

[VetteGirlMA]

I believe one judge in CA ignored SCOTUS but I forget the case. That’s the only one I’ve seen and that will get reversed on appeal.

Not so much the courts but what is happening is that states under the guise of 'text, history and tradition' are saying 1791 is not the correct date to use when analyzing 2A claims but 1868 is the correct date (the ratification of the 14th amendment). However regardless of the date, the 14th amendment did not modify the text of the second amendment so it should not be applied. I am guessing that by trying to trip up a judge the gun grabbers are hoping for a victory somewhere by 'redefining' the RKBA from 1791-1868 is an anomaly. Thankfully there are plenty of people who see past this and are already picking apart judge's decision, including the recent NY carrying guns in a church decision.

 

[SFC13557]

NY is shall issue now, the lawsuits are over a number of issues including sensitive places, requiring people turnover social media account information etc.

Right, so "Shall issue" means we'll issue you a permit but arrest you when you carry it in public.
BRILLIANT! Who said the Leftists were stupid?

 

[Picton]

Maybe, I hope you're right but as a Ma. resident and LTC holder for over 35 yrs. I've seen the illegal decrees/restrictions this State has imposed on us with no legal repercussions. AG's restricted gun roster, Maura's "ban" on AR's, Towns and cities making up their own "rules" for applying, receiving a LTC, Restricted Firearms licenses, etc. Different rules in different Towns/Cities for applying/renewing.
No Loon, just a jaded 67 yr old Ma**h*** who has seen/watched Ma. Pols pull every trick in the book on us and get away with it.

As I and many others have said to you earlier (several times), you're not understanding that the Bruen decision was written in such a way that what's happened nationally (and in MA and the other shit states) over the past 35 years no longer matters. The level of legal scrutiny is now completely different, and all those laws will now be reexamined in light of a legal standard they cannot meet. They will fall.

So? Some states will pass new laws. But Clarence Thomas already thought of that with his "text, history, and tradition" standard. That standard is brand-new. It's not yet been tested, but it's in the process of being tested in many states already. You'll see.

It's fine; I realize you're determined not to be convinced of any of this. Time will tell.