Supreme Court - NYSRPA v. Bruen - Megathread

[Garys]

I wasn't part of the planning, but I and a lot of other people showed up on that January day in 2013. It was a great day for me.

Nothing to do with the topic, but I just want to thank you and the others for taking the lead.

Doing exactly what? Were you part of the group led by @HKdrummer that met at my house in 2013, planned and executed a grass roots effort that successfully pushed back some seriously bad bills? How many of the "listening sessions" did you attend? Did the politicians great you by name when you arrived?

 

[Coyote33]

He did that yesterday, but that's normal in a corporate takeover. It's unwise to leave top executives after a takeover because they will almost always work to undermine a new owner.

That is where Trump failed.

Over the next couple of years we are going to see the cascading effect of NYSRPA v Bruen across the country. Shall Issue is not the end, it's merely the beginning. Many judges at the District and Circuit levels may not have their hearts in it, but they will follow the dictate of SCOTUS. Judges don't like it when their decisions are overturned, so they will tread lightly. They may drag their feet a bit, but once a case is GVRed, the handwriting is clearly on the wall.

This might be OK, but the existing justices are not getting any younger, if you know what I mean.

 

[Picton]

This might be OK, but the existing justices are not getting any younger, if you know what I mean.

Won't matter. New appointees will have to rule IAW Bruen, too. Every federal judge in the country, present or future, is bound by Thomas' text/history/tradition test. Until SCOTUS takes this up again, which will take a long while.

This genie is staying out of the bottle.

 

[Coyote33]

Won't matter. New appointees will have to rule IAW Bruen, too. Every federal judge in the country, present or future, is bound by Thomas' text/history/tradition test. Until SCOTUS takes this up again, which will take a long while.

This genie is staying out of the bottle.

Isn't that what they said about Roe vs. Wade also?

 

[Picton]

Isn't that what they said about Roe vs. Wade also?

Not sure I understand.

They're two unrelated issues. Roe was decided according to shaky reasoning, poorly-expressed, which lower federal courts nevertheless routinely DID rule in accordance with consistently. Roe's reasoning and justification were criticized from the day it was handed down, and STILL it was the law of the land for 50 years.

Bruen's reasoning is much, much stronger and far more comprehensive than even the appellants were expecting. It leaves literally no wiggle room for discretionary licensing, but it also kicks the door wide open on a host of other firearms infringements that have built up. And it will stand at least as long as Roe, probably forever. Clarence Thomas had 20 years to draft this ruling, and he left few stones unturned. It is soundly reasoned, well-researched, and clear in what it directs lower courts to do.

I really don't see any comparison between Bruen and Roe, on their merits.

 

[Hoover]

That is where Trump failed.


This might be OK, but the existing justices are not getting any younger, if you know what I mean.

Trump thinks he’s so brilliant he can change hard core partisans to like him, that’s why he continues to give interviews to The NY Times, Bob Woodward, etc. some people are open minded but committed partisans are not.

 

[vickers]

Not sure I understand.

They're two unrelated issues. Roe was decided according to shaky reasoning, poorly-expressed, which lower federal courts nevertheless routinely DID rule in accordance with consistently. Roe's reasoning and justification were criticized from the day it was handed down, and STILL it was the law of the land for 50 years.

Bruen's reasoning is much, much stronger and far more comprehensive than even the appellants were expecting. It leaves literally no wiggle room for discretionary licensing, but it also kicks the door wide open on a host of other firearms infringements that have built up. And it will stand at least as long as Roe, probably forever. Clarence Thomas had 20 years to draft this ruling, and he left few stones unturned. It is soundly reasoned, well-researched, and clear in what it directs lower courts to do.

I really don't see any comparison between Bruen and Roe, on their merits.

Even Ginsburg acknowledged the framework around Roe was less than ideal and she would have preferred it was a bit more measured and based on a different constitutional angle. She has stated that the decision overreached and opened the door for the hard line anti-abortion movement to rally and build considerable opposition where a more measured and reasonable decision may have generated less controversy.

 

[M1911]

Isn't that what they said about Roe vs. Wade also?

Roe v. Wade was a very weak decision, but even still it wasn't overturned until 49 years later. Bruen is a stronger decision. I believe it will be around a long time.

 

[SFC13557]

...just bought one, in fact.

Catton's brilliant, but I'm kinda Civil War'd out. I'm into Bernard Fall writing on the French in Vietnam right now. He was brilliant too.

How much? Pre-ban 5K?

Dien Bien Phu? What a disaster, preview of Khe Sanh.

 

[SFC13557]

"Be as stubborn as you want, just like the Leftist politicians, but this is going to happen."

As I've said, I'll believe it when I can buy any firearm in Ma. that I can buy in NH with my LTC.

 

[SFC13557]

"Doing exactly what? Were you part of the group led by @HKdrummer that met at my house in 2013, planned and executed a grass roots effort that successfully pushed back some seriously bad bills? How many of the "listening sessions" did you attend? Did the politicians great you by name when you arrived?"

Wasn't invited.

I communicated and met with Jen Flanagan when she was my State Senator because she was rated A+ by GOAL and just had an email exchange with my Rep. Natalie Higgins over the recent Ma. firearms bill, I don't think she likes me.

Attended the largest pro-gun rally in Ma. history in the mid 90's organized by Mike Yacino from GOAL on the Boston Common and we marched to the State House. Ask Len about the Rally, approx. 4000 Ma**h***s attended. Try to get that crowd now. As I've stated before watched Margery Egan from the Herald walk around the Rally and read her biased, BS column the next day in which she wrote as an opening line; "In a Sea of Cowboy Hats and Big belt Buckles Ma. gun owners gathered on the Boston Common to protest, etc". She interviewed One Black guy wearing a cowboy hat and sporting a cowboy belt buckle. This was before email so couldn't call her on it but years later when she had a radio show with Jim Braude on FM I called in and reminded her of her hit piece. She plead stupid.
What did that accomplish?

Contribute to Geoff Diehl, Dean Tran, General Don Bolduc in NH.

Email with Seth Moulton, Jake Auchincloss and rip them for being Veterans who back the AWB.

Email with Liawatha's Office over her anti-Trump/Conservative, anti-gun, anti-capitalism, anti-Bank/Wall St., anti-American policies. They hate me.

Patron Member of the NRA, GOAL Member for over 30yrs, GOA member, FPC member, etc.

So you think it's good idea that your anti-gun Pols know your name and where you live?

"Listening Sessions"? Who spoke and what were you listening to?

You seem to think we live in a Democratic State that gives a shit what we think and want, I don't.

I'm glad you're an eternal Optimist but I've lived here all my life except Military Service and know these Pols and have watched this State go from JFK Dems to Far Leftist, anti-American Socialists who hate guns, gun owners, Republicans, Conservatives, Big Business except when they are bullied into contributions.

I worked for MIT/LL for 34 yrs and used to shoot at the Campus range in the early 90's, those days are long gone.

I joined the Army Reserve as a 33 yr old PFC in 1988 and served in the 187th Infantry Brigade (SEP) in Boston/Roslindale from 1988 to 1992 as an 11B, MANG from 1992 until 2008 (11th SFG, 20th SFG as a wannabee, 29th ID, 26th ID) and back to the Army Reserve until retiring in 2012 because I realized all my O6's had voted for Barry.

Been there, done that.

Hopefully the Bruen decision will have far reaching effects in anti-gun States but not holding my breath.

Only reason I'm still a Ma**h*** is because of 2 Grandsons in State but that's in flux. My lease is up in March so a move North could be in my near future.

"Keep your Powder Dry" my Friends (Motto of the 181 INF), I have the Coin.

Go Pats, Red Pat Patriot Uniform is the best.

 

[SFC13557]

Even Ginsburg acknowledged the framework around Roe was less than ideal and she would have preferred it was a bit more measured and based on a different constitutional angle. She has stated that the decision overreached and opened the door for the hard line anti-abortion movement to rally and build considerable opposition where a more measured and reasonable decision may have generated less controversy.

You are correct, try telling that to a screaming Leftist beating a drum in front of Kavanaugh's house.

 

[SFC13557]

Trump thinks he’s so brilliant he can change hard core partisans to like him, that’s why he continues to give interviews to The NY Times, Bob Woodward, etc. some people are open minded but committed partisans are not.

Trump is an ego maniac, an Alpha Male who loves the attention of the Media which has served him well.

Yes, Trump was undermined by the Swamp but he entered office as an outsider and with a bullseye on his back.

 

[Coyote33]

reasoning and justification were criticized from the day it was handed down

Same with Bruen, would you not agree?

Even Ginsburg acknowledged the framework around Roe was less than ideal and she would have preferred it was a bit more measured and based on a different constitutional angle. She has stated that the decision overreached and opened the door for the hard line anti-abortion movement to rally and build considerable opposition where a more measured and reasonable decision may have generated less controversy.

I don't specialize in court following or that topic. I just call 'em the way I see 'em.

Roe v. Wade was a very weak decision, but even still it wasn't overturned until 49 years later. Bruen is a stronger decision. I believe it will be around a long time.

Could be. Jury is still out on that. I sure hope so.

 

[Picton]

Same with Bruen, would you not agree?

No. No legal heavy hitters are critiquing Thomas’ reasoning. They don’t like his conclusion, but that’s hardly the same thing.

 

[Hoover]

Same with Bruen, would you not agree?

I don't specialize in court following or that topic. I just call 'em the way I see 'em.
Could be. Jury is still out on that. I sure hope so.

Pro life groups were organized and focused on reversing roe and never stopped. The committed anti gun people are committed (most should be committed, they’re batshit crazy) but they’re such a small group. They’re all astroturf groups almost completely funded by bloomberg.

And look at roe, after that SCOTUS decision states and federal administrations never stopped passing laws with abortion restrictions. With guns, 13 years ago there were 2 constitutional carry states, today there’s 25 with WI, MI, PA, NC, LA joining as quickly as they have a GOP governor. Only 8 states have many restrictions on guns. And anyone over 18 can own guns where as how many women would even consider an abortion?

We have probably 2-4 years of very active court action. Once courts strike down AWB, mag limits, sensitive places, handgun rosters, where can the anti gun people go? They’ll have no ability to pass any real restrictions, the few in the AstroTurf groups will disappear

 

[Len-2A Training]

Attended the largest pro-gun rally in Ma. history in the mid 90's organized by Mike Yacino from GOAL on the Boston Common and we marched to the State House. Ask Len about the Rally, approx. 4000 Ma**h***s attended. Try to get that crowd now. As I've stated before watched Margery Egan from the Herald walk around the Rally and read her biased, BS column the next day in which she wrote as an opening line; "In a Sea of Cowboy Hats and Big belt Buckles Ma. gun owners gathered on the Boston Common to protest, etc". She interviewed One Black guy wearing a cowboy hat and sporting a cowboy belt buckle. This was before email so couldn't call her on it but years later when she had a radio show with Jim Braude on FM I called in and reminded her of her hit piece. She plead stupid.
What did that accomplish?
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You seem to think we live in a Democratic State that gives a shit what we think and want, I don't.
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.
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Hopefully the Bruen decision will have far reaching effects in anti-gun States but not holding my breath.

Fuzzy memory is that we had ~5K at that rally. I was dressed in a suit, and I seem to recall that most were dressed in business type attire. I video taped most of the event but I've never watched it. The media lies like a rug and wrt the rallies, it was no different.

I spent many years meeting with my state rep or senator about gun issues. They never supported us. I even told one of my state senators that I could no longer support him because of the gun issues. He still invited me to his swearing in DC as a congressman.

I also expect MA to figure out creative ways to defy the Bruen decision and it will take years to set all that straight.

I don't know who you are, but like your thinking 5 yrs ago I decided it was time to escape MA for Free America! It truly is refreshing up here in NH and I find almost everyone is a like-minded individual.

Thank you for your service!!

 

[CatSnoutSoup]

With gratitude to Saint Clarence and his doctrine of text, history, and tradition I would like to indulge myself with some wishful thinking. What kind of odds are folks going to give me that by Election Day 2024 magazine capacity limits will be a thing of the past?

 

[Hoover]

With gratitude to Saint Clarence and his doctrine of text, history, and tradition I would like to indulge myself with some wishful thinking. What kind of odds are folks going to give me that by Election Day 2024 magazine capacity limits will be a thing of the past?

In Massachusetts? 2-1 odds by that date. The quickest route for mag limits going down is for the Ocean state tactical case in RI being found unconstitutional by a RI federal court then the 1st circuit upholding it. I think that will happen because the test and history of such restrictions didn’t exist until 1990. They may drag their feet time wise.

By January of this year Duncan vs bonta should be decided by judge benetiz in California then that goes up to the 9th. There’s also bianch vs from (a mag and AWB case) in the 4th right now from Maryland and there’s one in NJ at the district court level.

All these AWB and mag laws will fall, there isn’t any history to support any of them.

 

[CatSnoutSoup]

I know some people rag on this kid for his awkward delivery, but I like him and found he does have a sense of humor about himself, as proven last video when answering a viewer question with, “Of course I’m not wearing pants, why would I, you can only see me from the waist up.’

Anyway he put out a new video this evening explaining California’s arguments in their new Miller v. Bonta supplemental briefs. Also expressing his opinion that Benitez will release an opinion probably within 30 days now that Benitez denied California’s extension request and all briefs and responses have been filed.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Roe v. Wade was a very weak decision, but even still it wasn't overturned until 49 years later. Bruen is a stronger decision. I believe it will be around a long time.

No matter which side you are on, you always laud the legal reasoning as correct when you win and denounce it when you lose.

In reality, Justices determine the outcome they want and the legal reasoning resembles sparky looking for his bone.

 

[Coyote33]

No. No legal heavy hitters are critiquing Thomas’ reasoning. They don’t like his conclusion, but that’s hardly the same thing.

Sorry, but I'm not up on, or privy to, the "legal heavy hitter" news circuit. Barely can follow the cases, let alone whoever the "legal heavy hitters" are.

 

[EJFudd]

I also expect MA to figure out creative ways to defy the Bruen decision and it will take years to set all that straight.

Truth. Reality. They've done it before and I expect they will do it again under Governor Dimples, AG Campbell and the one-party anti-2A Legislature.

What kind of odds are folks going to give me that by Election Day 2024 magazine capacity limits will be a thing of the past?

Two years? I'm not a betting man, but I would say no better than 50/50.

We live in interesting times. The MA Legislature has literally vowed to destroy us and obliterate the last of the gun-related "freedoms" we enjoy... while, at the same time, the Bruen decision is slowly starting to have an impact elsewhere that could eventually be felt here in MA... and I don't just mean the demise of LTC bullshit reasons and bullshit restrictions. So who will win?

I'm a selfish old man. I've been licensed forever and always with an unrestricted license. I never had to give anyone a reason for anything. So gains to date (under Bruen) have really had zero effect on me. Same with the good wife. The "meat and potatoes" of Bruen haven't hit my plate yet. Neither have they hit the MA Legislature. I want the MA AWB killed and the hated Approved Roster to go away. I want the Dimples rules to go away. I want the magazine limits killed and I even want the "Safe Storage" law changed (the latter being a fight for another day). I'd also love to own a legal can someday before I die, but I'm not going to hold my breath on that one.

In other words, I want the same basic 2A rights as our neighbors to the north enjoy. I know... pretty radical, right?

 

[JuergenG]

I want the Dimples rules to go away

FIFY

 

[Hoover]

I know some people rag on this kid for his awkward delivery, but I like him and found he does have a sense of humor about himself, as proven last video when answering a viewer question with, “Of course I’m not wearing pants, why would I, you can only see me from the waist up.’

Anyway he put out a new video this evening explaining California’s arguments in their new Miller v. Bonta supplemental briefs. Also expressing his opinion that Benitez will release an opinion probably within 30 days now that Benitez denied California’s extension request and all briefs and responses have been filed.

I like his stuff , my only complaint is he hypes so of the court filings some and his text “game changing”, etc are over the top for the brief or injunction the video is about. I understand why he does it though, he wants clicks on his videos to get the money and more sharing in the YouTube algorithm.

I already know about 99% of his content because @2aupdates posts every court issue on Twitter. He’s the best source.

 

[Hoover]

Truth. Reality. They've done it before and I expect they will do it again under Governor Dimples, AG Campbell and the one-party anti-2A Legislature.

Two years? I'm not a betting man, but I would say no better than 50/50.

We live in interesting times. The MA Legislature has literally vowed to destroy us and obliterate the last of the gun-related "freedoms" we enjoy... while, at the same time, the Bruen decision is slowly starting to have an impact elsewhere that could eventually be felt here in MA... and I don't just mean the demise of LTC bullshit reasons and bullshit restrictions. So who will win?

I'm a selfish old man. I've been licensed forever and always with an unrestricted license. I never had to give anyone a reason for anything. So gains to date (under Bruen) have really had zero effect on me. Same with the good wife. The "meat and potatoes" of Bruen haven't hit my plate yet. Neither have they hit the MA Legislature. I want the MA AWB killed and the hated Approved Roster to go away. I want the Dimples rules to go away. I want the magazine limits killed and I even want the "Safe Storage" law changed (the latter being a fight for another day). I'd also love to own a legal can someday before I die, but I'm not going to hold my breath on that one.

In other words, I want the same basic 2A rights as our neighbors to the north enjoy. I know... pretty radical, right?

AWB and mag limits will probably be gone in 2-3 years at the most. They’ll start falling in the 4th, 9th, etc first. The end of the 2 step means end scrutiny ended all those crap laws.

 

[Garys]

Thanks. I added @2aupdates to my follow list on Twitter.

I like his stuff , my only complaint is he hypes so of the court filings some and his text “game changing”, etc are over the top for the brief or injunction the video is about. I understand why he does it though, he wants clicks on his videos to get the money and more sharing in the YouTube algorithm.

I already know about 99% of his content because @2aupdates posts every court issue on Twitter. He’s the best source.

 

[dingbat]

No matter which side you are on, you always laud the legal reasoning as correct when you win and denounce it when you lose.

In reality, Justices determine the outcome they want and the legal reasoning resembles sparky looking for his bone.

View attachment 679809

Fixed it for you…

 

[Mesatchornug]

No matter which side you are on, you always laud the legal reasoning as correct when you win and denounce it when you lose.

Which is why Roe is notable, as even people who favored the outcome (e.g. Ginsburg) spoke from day 1 up about how poorly it was reasoned.

 

[M1911]

Which is why Roe is notable, as even people who favored the outcome (e.g. Ginsburg) spoke from day 1 up about how poorly it was reasoned.

A friend of mine is an attorney. His personal view is pro-choice, but he told me that the Roe decision was the worst SCOTUS decision that he'd ever read.