Supreme Court - NYSRPA v. Bruen - Megathread

[Cap'n Mike]

How Have State Gun Laws Changed Since Bruen? | Duke Center for Firearms Law

firearmslaw.duke.edu

The point being, Bruen motivated new anti-gun pushback in as many places as it motivated pro-gun action. The author’s position on post-Bruen “constitutionality” doubt appears to reflect the justification on both sides in up/down-regulating guns - challenge the judicial system to develop some case law based on Bruen before giving up the cause.

“… one thing that does not seem to have changed with Bruen is that mass shooting events continue to spur some level of bipartisan agreement on certain regulations.
Several states have recently enacted (or are considering) “assault weapons” bans, an interesting trend given that no new state laws prohibiting assault weapons were enacted in more than two decades preceding Bruen. In fact, no state had banned assault weapons since the expiration of the federal assault weapons ban in 2004 until Delaware did so shortly after the Bruen decision, on June 30, 2022… mass shootings—like the recent tragic shootings at Michigan State and a parochial school in Nashville—still generate support for certain new regulatory measures no matter where they occur…

… there’s an important distinction between observing that a law is likely to be challenged in court and that taxpayers will have to foot the bill for a costly legal defense—which is certainly a legitimate factor to consider during legislative debate—and asserting that a law is unconstitutional when there is, as yet, no judicial consensus.”

Not disagreeing with you in whole, just in one small detail.
Maryland passed an assault weapon ban in 2013, after Newtown IIRC.

 

[KBCraig]

How Have State Gun Laws Changed Since Bruen? | Duke Center for Firearms Law

firearmslaw.duke.edu

The point being, Bruen motivated new anti-gun pushback in as many places as it motivated pro-gun action.

I only know of NY and NJ doubling down on defying Bruen (at least when it comes to handgun carry).

MD, IL, CA, even HI are complying (even if it's malicious non-compliance compliance).

Meanwhile, other states are moving to permitless carry (I think we're up to 27 states now).

Bruen-defiant states are a small minority.

 

[Joeldiaz]

I only know of NY and NJ doubling down on defying Bruen (at least when it comes to handgun carry).

MD, IL, CA, even HI are complying (even if it's malicious non-compliance compliance).

Meanwhile, other states are moving to permitless carry (I think we're up to 27 states now).

Bruen-defiant states are a small minority.

Not as small as you make it seem. WA recently became the 10th state to enact an AWB, which now puts 20% of the country behind enemy lines. MD & CA also tried to pass their own Bruen response bills similar to NY’s & NJ. MD’s bill got neutered, and CA’s bill only failed because CA Gov. Newsom got greedy and added an emergency enactment clause that would’ve made the bill go into effect right away but it required a supermajority vote to pass. Even then, it only failed by 1 vote. Also, Honolulu, HI did in fact pass a Bruen response bill.

Also, handgun carry isn’t the only method of Bruen defiance. You’re forgetting that Bruen said any gun control laws not supported by THT are unconstitutional. These states that have just recently passed AWBs & mag bans only did so in Bruen’s wake. WA had tried to get a AWB passed for several years, yet they only succeeded in a post-Bruen world.

 

[KBCraig]

Also, handgun carry isn’t the only method of Bruen defiance. You’re forgetting that Bruen said any gun control laws not supported by THT are unconstitutional. These states that have just recently passed AWBs & mag bans only did so in Bruen’s wake. WA had tried to get a AWB passed for several years, yet they only succeeded in a post-Bruen world.

I'm not forgetting. Bruen only dealt directly with handgun licensing. The ruling triggered other challenges (bump stocks, non-violent offenders, cannabis users, etc.), and the states who tried to enact stricter gun laws are going to lose, eventually.

 

[Joeldiaz]

I'm not forgetting. Bruen only dealt directly with handgun licensing. The ruling triggered other challenges (bump stocks, non-violent offenders, cannabis users, etc.), and the states who tried to enact stricter gun laws are going to lose, eventually.

The bump stock challenges were pre-Bruen, and they’re not even being challenged on 2A grounds. They’re administrative agency law issues. The main driving force behind those is that if bump stocks need to be banned then Congress needs to ban them, not the ATF. Same deal with the other bullshit the ATF is trying to pull with their arbitrary rule making (pistol braces, frames & receivers, FRTs, etc.).

 

[pastera]

States enacting further restrictions in reaction to Bruen while making it abundantly clear that it was a reaction is exactly what we want.
The dicta in Bruen is now on fast track to become case law favorable to the 2nd.
The government got spanked on bumpstocks in the 5th.
Under the same reasoning we will likely see pistols brace rules get struck down in the near future.
And hopefully the autokeycard convictions will be reversed for something other than an ATF over reach on calling information detailing how to make a lightning link a machinegun - a clear violation of the 1st amendment.

Charge in Autokeycard Case Unconstitutional: Motion to Dismiss

The Bruen decision, by the US SCOTUS, which restored the right to bear arms in public, is already bearing fruit in other cases. A Motion to dismiss in the Autokeycard case is instructive.

www.ammoland.com

I don't think that we will see the NFA fully struck down but we could see the Hughes amendment go away since the government hasn't banned machineguns only the collection of taxes on specific machineguns. By making it impossible to comply with a law but also enforcing the criminal punishments they have opened up another avenue of attack.

 

[Picton]

States enacting further restrictions in reaction to Bruen while making it abundantly clear that it was a reaction is exactly what we want.

This X1,000.

 

[MaverickNH]

States enacting further restrictions in reaction to Bruen while making it abundantly clear that it was a reaction is exactly what we want.
The dicta in Bruen is now on fast track to become case law favorable to the 2nd.
The government got spanked on bumpstocks in the 5th.
Under the same reasoning we will likely see pistols brace rules get struck down in the near future.
And hopefully the autokeycard convictions will be reversed for something other than an ATF over reach on calling information detailing how to make a lightning link a machinegun - a clear violation of the 1st amendment.

Charge in Autokeycard Case Unconstitutional: Motion to Dismiss

The Bruen decision, by the US SCOTUS, which restored the right to bear arms in public, is already bearing fruit in other cases. A Motion to dismiss in the Autokeycard case is instructive.

www.ammoland.com

I don't think that we will see the NFA fully struck down but we could see the Hughes amendment go away since the government hasn't banned machineguns only the collection of taxes on specific machineguns. By making it impossible to comply with a law but also enforcing the criminal punishments they have opened up another avenue of attack.

Yup. How do you think state-level PLCAA end-runs will pan out? If there are more “wins”, like the Sandy Hook/Remington settlement, that could really cast a pall over the “civilian” vendors of firearms & ammo. Such state-level actions cross to national impact.

“New York, New Jersey, Delaware and California have all acted since Bruen to pass so-called gun-industry liability laws, which generally authorize lawsuits against gun manufacturers and dealers within the predicate exception to the federal Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, or PLCAA…”

 

[ReggieB9mm]

Yup. How do you think state-level PLCAA end-runs will pan out? If there are more “wins”, like the Sandy Hook/Remington settlement, that could really cast a pall over the “civilian” vendors of firearms & ammo.

“New York, New Jersey, Delaware and California have all acted since Bruen to pass so-called gun-industry liability laws, which generally authorize lawsuits against gun manufacturers and dealers within the predicate exception to the federal Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, or PLCAA…”

And if the manufacturers stop selling products in those states, including government entities?

 

[Coyote33]

It does not seem to be stopping, nor even slowing down:

Colorado Gov Signs Four New Gun Control Measures Into Law

Joining Washington state in a 2023 western-United States gun control blitz, Colorado Governor Jared Polis on Friday put his signature on four bills restricting the exercise of the human right of armed self-defense. “No action can ever bring back the loved one that you lost,” said Polis...

www.northeastshooters.com

 

[Rob Boudrie]

NY has for all practical purposes voided all carry permits in NY (except to the extent they allow possession). Imaging having to get prior permission for every independent business you enter, otherwise you commit a felony. I don't know as many details about NJ, but I think it is even worse - and the inside of your care is a "sensitive zone"

MA has not reacted in knee-jerk mode, but is currently working on an "omnibus gun law".

 

[Joeldiaz]

MA has not reacted in knee-jerk mode, but is currently working on an "omnibus gun law".

“Help us Obi-Wan Kenobi Comm2A, you’re our only hope.”

Ain’t no way we stop the legislature from passing it. Once the governor signs, we need injunctions ASAP.

 

[T-Unit]

It does not seem to be stopping, nor even slowing down:

Colorado Gov Signs Four New Gun Control Measures Into Law

Joining Washington state in a 2023 western-United States gun control blitz, Colorado Governor Jared Polis on Friday put his signature on four bills restricting the exercise of the human right of armed self-defense. “No action can ever bring back the loved one that you lost,” said Polis...

www.northeastshooters.com

They will continue to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. The anti's now are banking on AWB and mag capacities because it's another thing they can talk about in their campaigns to appeal to their base and if SCOTUS overturns the laws that's more they can campaign on about packing the court.

So, no, the Donks will never stop, which is why we need a judiciary that will stop them. Roberts has been pro 2A so far and now they're going after his wife. I don't like Roberts, he comes off as a sleezy pedo, but his 2A rulings have been good so we should all defend him just for that.

 

[Picton]

They will continue to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. The anti's now are banking on AWB and mag capacities because it's another thing they can talk about in their campaigns to appeal to their base and if SCOTUS overturns the laws that's more they can campaign on about packing the court.

So, no, the Donks will never stop, which is why we need a judiciary that will stop them. Roberts has been pro 2A so far and now they're going after his wife. I don't like Roberts, he comes off as a sleezy pedo, but his 2A rulings have been good so we should all defend him just for that.

This.

This was the predictable reaction from politicians who have to be able to show their constituents they're dOiNg SoMeThiNg AbOuT gUnZZZ!!!!

Same thing happened in the wake of Brown v Board. Exactly the same. And the result ended up being even stronger than it would have been if the states had simply toed the line.

This is a generational fight. Our kids will have stronger RKBA because we're dealing with this now.

 

[Joeldiaz]

They will continue to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. The anti's now are banking on AWB and mag capacities because it's another thing they can talk about in their campaigns to appeal to their base and if SCOTUS overturns the laws that's more they can campaign on about packing the court.

So, no, the Donks will never stop, which is why we need a judiciary that will stop them. Roberts has been pro 2A so far and now they're going after his wife. I don't like Roberts, he comes off as a sleezy pedo, but his 2A rulings have been good so we should all defend him just for that.

Chief Justice Roberts’ hasn’t always had the best history with the 2A. If we lose a conservative SCOTUS seat, we could face another decade of SCOTUS refusing to take up 2A cases.

 

[NHCraigT]

View: https://twitter.com/LibertyCappy/status/1653046001983160320

 

[MaverickNH]

The text version: U.S. District Judge Stephen P. McGlynn granted an injunction prohibiting Illinois from enforcing the ban.

Federal judge blocks Illinois assault weapons ban

U.S. District Judge Stephen P. McGlynn granted an injunction prohibiting Illinois from enforcing the ban statewide.

www.cbsnews.com

Note that the 7th Circuit could reverse this, and given that it denied a similar motion 10 days ago will likely do so quite quickly.

Second Amendment Roundup: Illinois Gun Ban Enjoined

The banned “assault weapon” features improve accuracy and reduce the risk of stray shots.

reason.com

Halbrook adds little to the analysis but writes a good summary. One comment (below) was more interesting than the article itself, suggesting that counting homicides is less useful than counting gunshot injuries, as better access to Level III Trauma Centers results in higher survival rates. But the Reagan comment gives it away - Reagan was shot in 1981 and the point that he’d have died 20 years earlier (1960) reaches back to the state of trauma care 60 years ago. That’s a long reach to make arguments about so-called gun violence today. At an average ~$100,000 in hospital cost for gunshots, the “costs of gun violence” would be lower if more died from getting shot.

Hey Jackass data 2016-2022 shows Kill/Shot averaging 17.3% (+/-1%) …remarkably tight over a range of 2754-4543 shot.

“Yes, it has to do with time to a Level III trauma center.

If you get shot in Boston, there’s like 4 Level III trauma centers in the city itself. If you get shot in Bangor, ME, there is a Level II trauma center and if you live, they can medflight you the 120 miles to the Level III one in Portland. If you get shot in Houlton, ME, they might take you into Canada, otherwise it’s 120 miles to Bangor.

So we need to look at the number of people shot, not killed. If Reagan had been shot 20 years earlier, he would have died.”

 

[general disorder]

View: https://twitter.com/LibertyCappy/status/1653046001983160320

These people need to be laughed at and ridiculed. These morons walk amongst us. If you just make murder illegal than someone wouldn't be able to kill you, because that would be illegal.

 

[Dadstoys]

View: https://twitter.com/LibertyCappy/status/1653046001983160320

I hope she excels at oral, because that's the only thing that's going to get her through life.

 

[Coyote33]

Roberts has been pro 2A so far and now they're going after his wife

What do you mean "going after his wife"?

 

[Dench]

This is a generational fight. Our kids will have stronger RKBA because we're dealing with this now.

They may. That said I suspect my generation is probably the last where a firearm will still have it's intended use per the 2A.

The days of militiamen and the people fighting (a) government aren't going to be much of a possibility when we have AI and machines that AI can directly control.

As soon as law enforcement and military makes the change, which they obviously will when it's appropriate.... well... we better hope society is nice about it.

I'm just happy I wont be around to see it if it goes south.

 

[Toast]

What do you mean "going after his wife"?

After he was placed on the court, she left her law job and became a recruiter for high-end law firms. The argument is that these firms felt obligated to use her services and will now get preferential treatment at the court.

 

[CatSnoutSoup]

7th circuit court of appeals has struck down the district judge’s injunction and the IL AWB ban is back in effect.

 

[Coyote33]

7th circuit court of appeals has struck down the district judge’s injunction and the IL AWB ban is back in effect.

Now, was this like the California thing, when all of a sudden people could have a small window of opportunity to buy previously forbidden things, and then it ended again?

 

[Garys]

Minor point of order. Level 1 trauma centers are he highest level. There are five in Boston, plus two Level 1 pediatric trauma centers.

Lahey in Burlington is also a Level 1.

Worcester and Springfield each have one Level 1.

There are some number of Level 2 trauma centers, but I don't know them off hand.

Trauma survival in general is much higher than it was 40 years ago for a number of reasons.

If you get shot in Boston, there’s like 4 Level III trauma centers in the city itself. If you get shot in Bangor, ME, there is a Level II trauma center and if you live, they can medflight you the 120 miles to the Level III one in Portland. If you get shot in Houlton, ME, they might take you into Canada, otherwise it’s 120 miles to Bangor.

So we need to look at the number of people shot, not killed. If Reagan had been shot 20 years earlier, he would have died.”

 

[Joeldiaz]

Now, was this like the California thing, when all of a sudden people could have a small window of opportunity to buy previously forbidden things, and then it ended again?

Yup, IL had their own version of Freedom Week. That’s all over now

 

[MaverickNH]

Minor point of order. Level 1 trauma centers are he highest level. There are five in Boston, plus two Level 1 pediatric trauma centers.

Lahey in Burlington is also a Level 1.

Worcester and Springfield each have one Level 1.

There are some number of Level 2 trauma centers, but I don't know them off hand.

Trauma survival in general is much higher than it was 40 years ago for a number of reasons.

Yes, good catch - I worked in all 4 BOS Level 1 Trauma centers at one time or another - plenty of shot, shredded, crushed and torn bodies showing up, many going to the morgue. They transport if not DRT at the scene.

I’m just reviewing a manuscript submitted for publication on deaths in St Louis, MO Level 1 trauma center populations (they have 4) of those with an initial gunshot injury over 2011-2019. Of >10k gunshot individuals, over 93% survived the initial gunshot, with ~4% dead thereafter, half from gunshots (of that half, 2/3 homicide and 1/3 suicide). Gunshot cases were greater than 90% young black males, as expected. Half of the non-gunshot deaths were drug ODs. Median age of death from gunshot was 27, with age 51 for stroke, heart attack, diabetes. The deaths might have occurred anywhere in the US, tracked by the National Death Index database.

Interesting that St Louis has a half or less the gunshot fatality rate of Chicago (7% vs 17%) - they probably aren’t saving more headshot injuries and must be saving more toro injuries. Transport time might be faster in St Louis - minutes count. Chicago’s six Level 1 Trauma Centers don’t matter if people die in the street or a less capable hospital.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

www.bloomberg.com

[The link works - it just has a robot warning]

“The vast majority of Chicago slayings—94 percent in 2017—occur in the city’s South and West sides, in places marked not only by poverty but, in some cases, a lack of swift access to medical care. The southeast corner of the city marks a perilous “trauma desert,” where shooting victims are often shuttled out of the city to suburban centers, or north to Stroger Hospital near downtown. It can be a deadly delay.”

 

[MaverickNH]

District Judge Strikes Down Minnesota Law Restricting 18-to-20-Year-Olds from Carrying Handguns in Public, but Issues Stay Pending Appeal

firearmslaw.duke.edu

“On March 31, U.S. District Court Judge Katherine Menendez issued a decision in Worth v. Harrington finding portions of a Minnesota statute unconstitutional and enjoining the state from enforcing the statute in the future. The provision struck down in Worth is a part of the state’s permit-to-carry statute. In Minnesota, a permit is required to lawfully carry a handgun in public. Permits will be issued to any citizen who submits an application and satisfies certain criteria listed in the challenged statute. Requirements for receiving a permit include, among others, that the applicant be 21 years or older and complete a training course in the safe use of a pistol...

I find the district court’s choice to comment on the restrictive nature of the Bruen analysis particularly interesting. It seems to indicate that, after Bruen, at least some judges feel their hands have been tied by the historical analysis now required in Second Amendment cases. The practical effect of Bruen’s test is that judges are unable to consider state interests in promoting public safety or empirical data about the present-day effectiveness of state gun regulations.“

That’s a feature (the intent of Bruen), not a bug.

 

[Mesatchornug]

I find the district court’s choice to comment on the restrictive nature of the Bruen analysis particularly interesting. It seems to indicate that, after Bruen, at least some judges feel their hands have been tied by the historical analysis now required in Second Amendment cases. The practical effect of Bruen’s test is that judges are unable to consider state interests in promoting public safety or empirical data about the present-day effectiveness of state gun regulations.“

That’s a feature (the intent of Bruen), not a bug.

"Practical effect," nothing. That's the intended effect. He said "hey you guys, interest balancing isn't okay."

 

[JJC]

Yes, good catch - I worked in all 4 BOS Level 1 Trauma centers at one time or another - plenty of shot, shredded, crushed and torn bodies showing up, many going to the morgue. They transport if not DRT at the scene.

I’m just reviewing a manuscript submitted for publication on deaths in St Louis, MO Level 1 trauma center populations (they have 4) of those with an initial gunshot injury over 2011-2019. Of >10k gunshot individuals, over 93% survived the initial gunshot, with ~4% dead thereafter, half from gunshots (of that half, 2/3 homicide and 1/3 suicide). Gunshot cases were greater than 90% young black males, as expected. Half of the non-gunshot deaths were drug ODs. Median age of death from gunshot was 27, with age 51 for stroke, heart attack, diabetes. The deaths might have occurred anywhere in the US, tracked by the National Death Index database.

Interesting that St Louis has a half or less the gunshot fatality rate of Chicago (7% vs 17%) - they probably aren’t saving more headshot injuries and must be saving more toro injuries. Transport time might be faster in St Louis - minutes count. Chicago’s six Level 1 Trauma Centers don’t matter if people die in the street or a less capable hospital.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

www.bloomberg.com

[The link works - it just has a robot warning]

“The vast majority of Chicago slayings—94 percent in 2017—occur in the city’s South and West sides, in places marked not only by poverty but, in some cases, a lack of swift access to medical care. The southeast corner of the city marks a perilous “trauma desert,” where shooting victims are often shuttled out of the city to suburban centers, or north to Stroger Hospital near downtown. It can be a deadly delay.”

I think structural factors have an impact because traffic in Chicago is much worse than in st Louis and this delays intial major support. As you know, time to arrival from injury onset directly influences survival rate particularly when you stratify by injury severity. Either that or Chicago thugs are better shots.