Taunton Rifle and Pistol Club

thesyguy said:
And yet they fail to apply many of the rules. The outdoor range is a dump. Despite the rules around picking up brass and not using food items or paint cans as targets the place is littered with all of the above. I used to spend time trying to clean up other people’s messes left behind but gave up after a few years since it seems no one else cared or tried. I was there a few days ago and it was worse than ever.

Sometimes the ROs make up their own rules/laws. I was told by one that using a pre-ban magazine in a post ban rifle was illegal.

I will probably look for another range to join next year. It’s a shame because they do have some great facilities but lack the discipline required to actually be effective.
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I've found Sundays are nearly intolerable with the RO's. I blame trap shooting.

I have also seen incredibly stupid shit taking place. Buddy and I were sitting in the clubhouse chatting waiting for it to thin out some. Guy comes out from the range and asks if we know where the breakers are... turns out the lights went out at the indoor range and people were still shooting in a completely pitch black range. Couldn't believe it when I walked over to the range. Told my buddy what was happening and was like yeah I'm getting out of here before I'm roped into whatever TF this is.
 
BTSDOG said:
Im guessing ive been a member here longer than youve been living. (The key word is guessing) You knew the rules when you joined. Do you know the cost associated with the building the NEW indoor range ? The E board has every right to protect the clubs interests for the other members. If you cant deal with shooting your little so called rifle at the outdoor range, then find another club....... JMO
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"Protect the clubs interest" you mean protect the backstop? The MP5 I want to shoot has less velocity than a Sig P226.

The rules say no pistol caliber carbines or rifles, I want to shoot an SBR which by law is neither a PCC or rifle. The e-fudd-board should clarify the rules with the correct terms.
 
brilloexpert said:
"Protect the clubs interest" you mean protect the backstop? The MP5 I want to shoot has less velocity than a Sig P226.

The rules say no pistol caliber carbines or rifles, I want to shoot an SBR which by law is neither a PCC or rifle. The e-fudd-board should clarify the rules with the correct terms.
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We are not to confuse State or Federal law with Club rules and regulations which are in place for a REASON. What does SBR stand for ? Answer, Short Barreled RIFLE. The rules say no pistol caliber carbines or rifles. If you dont like the clubs bylaws, rules and regulations, run for E board next election, and see if you can change them.
 
BTSDOG said:
We are not to confuse State or Federal law with Club rules and regulations which are in place for a REASON. What does SBR stand for ? Answer, Short Barreled RIFLE. The rules say no pistol caliber carbines or rifles. If you dont like the clubs bylaws, rules and regulations, run for E board next election, and see if you can change them.
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Let's use the right terminology then, PCC does not encompass everything they think it does. Just because rifle is in the acronym doesn't make it so, just like a fisher cat is neither a fish or cat.

There is also no reason why a glock pistol with a stock isn't allowed. I want a valid reason why they aren't allowed and "hurr durr people will think AR15s are OK to shoot" is retarded non sense
 
brilloexpert said:
"Protect the clubs interest" you mean protect the backstop? The MP5 I want to shoot has less velocity than a Sig P226.

The rules say no pistol caliber carbines or rifles, I want to shoot an SBR which by law is neither a PCC or rifle. The e-fudd-board should clarify the rules with the correct terms.
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There are so many cartridge and barrel length combinations that it would be a fools endeavor to try and manage what’s allowed and what is not. .... Some things need to be dumbed down for a reason.
 
DPR said:
There are so many cartridge and barrel length combinations that it would be a fools endeavor to try and manage what’s allowed and what is not. .... Some things need to be dumbed down for a reason.
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It's not dumbing it down, it's creating ambiguity. If the intent is to not allow rifle cartridges then just say it.
 
DPR said:
After Reading their range rules I agree. 9mm rifle a no go but .44 rem mag is a go? No ambiguity there, clearly makes no sense.
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Exactly there is a list of allowed cartridges already and that should be it, shouldn't matter what kind of gun shoots it as long as its on the allowed list.

.44 rem mag is allowed because some fudd on the eboard prob likes to larp as a cowboy
 
brilloexpert said:
"Protect the clubs interest" you mean protect the backstop? The MP5 I want to shoot has less velocity than a Sig P226.

The rules say no pistol caliber carbines or rifles, I want to shoot an SBR which by law is neither a PCC or rifle. The e-fudd-board should clarify the rules with the correct terms.
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The indoor range needs upgrading in a very bad way. JMO
 
thesyguy said:
And yet they fail to apply many of the rules. The outdoor range is a dump. Despite the rules around picking up brass and not using food items or paint cans as targets the place is littered with all of the above. I used to spend time trying to clean up other people’s messes left behind but gave up after a few years since it seems no one else cared or tried. I was there a few days ago and it was worse than ever.

Sometimes the ROs make up their own rules/laws. I was told by one that using a pre-ban magazine in a post ban rifle was illegal.

I will probably look for another range to join next year. It’s a shame because they do have some great facilities but lack the discipline required to actually be effective.
Click to expand...
"Sometimes the ROs make up their own rules/laws. I was told by one that using a pre-ban magazine in a post ban rifle was illegal".

I would have laughed and kept shooting.
 
brilloexpert said:
"Protect the clubs interest" you mean protect the backstop? The MP5 I want to shoot has less velocity than a Sig P226.

The rules say no pistol caliber carbines or rifles, I want to shoot an SBR which by law is neither a PCC or rifle. The e-fudd-board should clarify the rules with the correct terms.
Click to expand...
PCC is a term invented by the competitive shooting community, and does not have a specific legal definition, unless you want to argue that it is not a carbine under federal law because it is a SBR. I do know that SBRs are allowed in many, perhaps most, competitions as "PCC" firearms.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
PCC is a term invented by the competitive shooting community, and does not have a specific legal definition, unless you want to argue that it is not a carbine under federal law because it is a SBR. I do know that SBRs are allowed in many, perhaps most, competitions as "PCC" firearms.
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Exactly it's not a carbine because it's an SBR. Furthermore a pistol with a stock is not a PCC yet it's also not allowed at the indoor range.

The stupid PCC rule should be removed, as it's superseded by the caliber restrictions. I've yet to hear a remotely compelling reason as why PCC, SBRs or Braced pistols are not allowed. Not allowing pistol braces is also opening them up to a ADA lawsuit.
 
brilloexpert said:
Exactly it's not a carbine because it's an SBR. Furthermore a pistol with a stock is not a PCC yet it's also not allowed at the indoor range.
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My point was the PCC has several definitions depending on the context in which it is used, and you need to understand what definition the club is using. You are unlikely to succeed telling them to use your definition because theirs is wrong.

For example, USPSA considers a SBR 9x19 to be a PCC for the purposes of their system of competitive divisions. Using the definition of "an SBR is not a carbine", leads to another context and a different definition.

It's sort of like the term "civilian". It means one thing to someone in the military; another to a police officer; and other parties choose their definition - sometimes to point of claiming Webster is wrong offering two definitions.
 
Obligatory statement: I am not a member of Taunton Pistol and Rifle, but have heard good things about it. I have no "dog in this fight" so to speak. The club I belong to has the same rule for the indoor range. I've listened and monitored many of the same comments as I'm reading on this thread.

I'm not sure how the club's RO operate, but I would assume they are there to make sure all shooters/guests are safe and to enforce the existing club rules and to protect the club's assets.

Are the RO's always there? Just curios.
BTSDOG said:
We are not to confuse State or Federal law with Club rules and regulations which are in place for a REASON. What does SBR stand for ? Answer, Short Barreled RIFLE. The rules say no pistol caliber carbines or rifles. If you dont like the clubs bylaws, rules and regulations, run for E board next election, and see if you can change them.
Click to expand...

This ^. From what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong), most clubs are not dictatorships. As members, you attend the business meetings, and usually during some part of the meetings, there is an opportunity to bring up the subject you want further explanation or want to change. If the E-Board doesn't offer you what you're looking for, simple: take @BTSDOG suggestion and run for E-Board to change the rules.

Jay
 
a73elkyss said:
Obligatory statement: I am not a member of Taunton Pistol and Rifle, but have heard good things about it. I have no "dog in this fight" so to speak. The club I belong to has the same rule for the indoor range. I've listened and monitored many of the same comments as I'm reading on this thread.

I'm not sure how the club's RO operate, but I would assume they are there to make sure all shooters/guests are safe and to enforce the existing club rules and to protect the club's assets.

Are the RO's always there? Just curios.


This ^. From what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong), most clubs are not dictatorships. As members, you attend the business meetings, and usually during some part of the meetings, there is an opportunity to bring up the subject you want further explanation or want to change. If the E-Board doesn't offer you what you're looking for, simple: take @BTSDOG suggestion and run for E-Board to change the rules.

Jay
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What is your clubs reasoning for not allowing PCCs, SBRs etc?
 
brilloexpert said:
What is your clubs reasoning for not allowing PCCs, SBRs etc?
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To be quite frank, I'm not 100% sure. Side note: While I do a decent amount of work at the range, I'm not on the E-Board or speak with any authority, just my opinions.

I believe the reasoning has to do with our existing bullet trap. Five lanes within a 50 foot distance. Old school steel style angled downward to multiple trays to collect the lead. I'm not saying that it physically can't handle larger rounds, but the pistol lead/bullet fragments that splash back towards the shooting stands come out almost 12 feet from the steel backstop. Again, I'm not 100% sure, but shooting the backstop bullet trap steel at almost 17 yards would be a minimum to prevent splash from coming back towards the shooting stands.

We are contemplating replacing the steel bullet trap with a rubber trap, like our outdoor range.

Jay
 
a73elkyss said:
To be quite frank, I'm not 100% sure. Side note: While I do a decent amount of work at the range, I'm not on the E-Board or speak with any authority, just my opinions.

I believe the reasoning has to do with our existing bullet trap. Five lanes within a 50 foot distance. Old school steel style angled downward to multiple trays to collect the lead. I'm not saying that it physically can't handle larger rounds, but the pistol lead/bullet fragments that splash back towards the shooting stands come out almost 12 feet from the steel backstop. Again, I'm not 100% sure, but shooting the backstop bullet trap steel at almost 17 yards would be a minimum to prevent splash from coming back towards the shooting stands.

We are contemplating replacing the steel bullet trap with a rubber trap, like our outdoor range.

Jay
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I'm not advocating for larger rounds, I agree with the existing rules against rifle calibers. 9mm/40/45 out of a PCC/SBR is almost the same muzzle velocity as a pistol.
 
brilloexpert said:
I'm not advocating for larger rounds, I agree with the existing rules against rifle calibers. 9mm/40/45 out of a PCC/SBR is almost the same muzzle velocity as a pistol.
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Not exactly, unless you have a very broad definition of "almost the same". JP himself told me that SBC/PCC made the 9mm perform more like a 357.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Not exactly, unless you have a very broad definition of "almost the same". JP himself told me that SBC/PCC made the 9mm perform more like a 357.
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No idea who JP is, and regardless 357 is still a pistol caliber and is allowed on the indoor range. An extra 4-10 inches of barrel length is never going to make a pistol caliber perform like 5.56 or 7.62.
 
brilloexpert said:
No idea who JP is, and regardless 357 is still a pistol caliber and is allowed on the indoor range. An extra 4-10 inches of barrel length is never going to make a pistol caliber perform like 5.56 or 7.62.
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John Paul, as in www.jprifles.com - perhaps even more expert with ARs than he is with classical piano, another of his accomplishments.
 
brilloexpert said:
Ya never heard of him... Anyways barrel lengths affect on muzzle velocity is negligible: BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: 9mm Luger Results
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That is a matter of opinion.

According to your table a Federal 115gr 9x19 of 1094fps out of a 4" barrel and 1295fps out of a 16", an increase of 201fps second and 18.37%.

The formula for ft lbs is v^2*weight, so the actual energy difference is (1.1837)^2 -1 or 40%

Your opinion may reasonably differ as to what qualifies as "negligible", but I don't consider a difference in 40% of muzzle energy and 18% increase in velocity negligible. How big of a difference in velocity and muzzle energy do you require to leave the "negligible" range?
 
Rob Boudrie said:
That is a matter of opinion.

According to your table a Federal 115gr 9x19 of 1094fps out of a 4" barrel and 1295fps out of a 16", an increase of 201fps second and 18.37%.

The formula for ft lbs is v^2*weight, so the actual energy difference is (1.1837)^2 -1 or 40%

Your opinion may reasonably differ as to what qualifies as "negligible", but I don't consider a difference in 40% of muzzle energy and 18% increase in velocity negligible. How big of a difference in velocity and muzzle energy do you require to leave the "negligible" range?
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What I'd consider non negligible is the amount it'd take to damage the backstop. 44 mag is an allowed caliber that can reach up to 2000fps so anything less than that is negligible.

Another thing to note is why there should be a differentiation between a SBR and a PCC is a SBR will have a sub 16" barrel and even less FPS.
 
brilloexpert said:
I'm not advocating for larger rounds, I agree with the existing rules against rifle calibers. 9mm/40/45 out of a PCC/SBR is almost the same muzzle velocity as a pistol.
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My apologies for throwing another match on the fire. That was not my intention. I should have just watched this thread. But the subject interests me as I'm assisting in upgrading our old existing 5 lane 50 foot indoor range. Seeing what other clubs do, experience, and members feedback, interests me. Ballistics, proper ventilation, etc. aside, you have RO's and can monitor your indoor range much closer than we can. I've used our indoor range (open 24 x 7) at some early off hours and except for cameras, I'm alone and have the physical ability to bring in a Hi-Point 9MM Carbine, M&P 15-22, or M&P15 Sport (for example) and the cameras (for the most point) won't be able to tell the difference except for the size of the brass hitting the floor. And that is why "I assume" when a club policy/rule says "no PCC/SBR" it is just a more straightforward way of policing the existing policy.

I'll just watch. Again, my apologies.

Jay
 
a73elkyss said:
My apologies for throwing another match on the fire. That was not my intention. I should have just watched this thread. But the subject interests me as I'm assisting in upgrading our old existing 5 lane 50 foot indoor range. Seeing what other clubs do, experience, and members feedback, interests me. Ballistics, proper ventilation, etc. aside, you have RO's and can monitor your indoor range much closer than we can. I've used our indoor range (open 24 x 7) at some early off hours and except for cameras, I'm alone and have the physical ability to bring in a Hi-Point 9MM Carbine, M&P 15-22, or M&P15 Sport (for example) and the cameras (for the most point) won't be able to tell the difference except for the size of the brass hitting the floor. And that is why "I assume" when a club policy/rule says "no PCC/SBR" it is just a more straightforward way of policing the existing policy.

I'll just watch. Again, my apologies.

Jay
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You must have a damn good camera system or a really invasive one to be able to detect brass size.
 
Chevy 2 65 said:
"Sometimes the ROs make up their own rules/laws. I was told by one that using a pre-ban magazine in a post ban rifle was illegal".

I would have laughed and kept shooting.
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It's funny, but I've been a member here for 3 years now and I've never seen an RO at either indoor or the outdoor. I must just have good timing. I would be dumbfounded if one ever said that to me.
 
Flash311 said:
It's funny, but I've been a member here for 3 years now and I've never seen an RO at either indoor or the outdoor.
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YES, you have. You've seen quite a few.

Ever see someone emptying trash, or pulling pallet wreckage off the ranges into the burn bin?

As to the other stupid shit - Brillo, cool it. Seriously.

It isn't just protecting the backstop - that is armor plate. Everything else - target carriers, pulleys, stops, lights, etc are **not** made out of armor, and many have been damaged by rifles.

I'd go on, but I have another six hours of finance meetings to look forward to tomorrow. Enjoy the range, haven't had a chance to visit in 7 months.

Regards,
-Ben
 

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