Taurus announced TH10 10mm 15+1

[KBCraig]

Taurusâs New TH10 Hammer-Fired 15+1 10mm Pistol - The Truth About Guns

The 10mm never really took off after it's development in the early 1980's. It was kept alive thanks in large part to a small, but diehard following, but it wasn't until the the 10 years or so that manufacturers really started giving it it's due. What was once a round barely surviving with a cult...

www.thetruthaboutguns.com

 

[Agnotology]

I'd throw my ammo in someone else's gun and shoot a few rounds, dunno as though I personally would buy it. It looks great. Definitely surprised by the Taurus label.

 

[jkelly1229]

Looks bad.. and i like the way the 9 looks

 

[T-Unit]

There was rumor 6 months ago when Taurus released the .45 that a 10mm was coming too and I was skeptical, I've heard these types of empty hopes before (looking at you Ruger with your PC carbine) and said that I'll believe it when I see it.

Well, Taurus done did it... good, about time someone brought out a DA/SA 10mm in what will be a common platform.

With Hi Point having also done a 10mm, Taurus doing one that's more conducive for carrying means that the price point to get into 10mm has been lowered to a point many more people are able to buy into it and create demand for ammo. This is going to create a need to increase supply and prices are going to come down. 10mm is never going to match 9mm in price, but I think we're likely to see a day where 10mm is available at under $20 a box, maybe $16-17.

On the TH10, I kind of just want the .45 more for some reason, probably because I'm all set with a full size 10mm currently and my only other .45 is a Hi Point. Taurus makes compact TH models for the 9 and .40, if they did that for the 10mm I would consider it.

 

[hillman]

If it meets the hype, I wouldn't mind one for a woods gun.

 

[drgrant]

I would even try it, but I hate the fact that they didn't release like a G3 10mm simultaneously. The whole "we can only sell 10mm to boomer fudds" thing is irritating. Like 6" 10mm 1911s with target sights and more DA/SA stuff... chtist enough with polishing the suspender + dickies 5000 farts/GSks 70yo ballbag stuff.

 

[jkelly1229]

There was rumor 6 months ago when Taurus released the .45 that a 10mm was coming too and I was skeptical, I've heard these types of empty hopes before (looking at you Ruger with your PC carbine) and said that I'll believe it when I see it.

Well, Taurus done did it... good, about time someone brought out a DA/SA 10mm in what will be a common platform.

With Hi Point having also done a 10mm, Taurus doing one that's more conducive for carrying means that the price point to get into 10mm has been lowered to a point many more people are able to buy into it and create demand for ammo. This is going to create a need to increase supply and prices are going to come down. 10mm is never going to match 9mm in price, but I think we're likely to see a day where 10mm is available at under $20 a box, maybe $16-17.

On the TH10, I kind of just want the .45 more for some reason, probably because I'm all set with a full size 10mm currently and my only other .45 is a Hi Point. Taurus makes compact TH models for the 9 and .40, if they did that for the 10mm I would consider it.

Isnt the 45 a few years old at this point?

 

[drgrant]

With Hi Point having also done a 10mm, Taurus doing one that's more conducive for carrying means that the price point to get into 10mm has been lowered to a point many more people are able to buy into it and create demand for ammo. This is going to create a need to increase supply and prices are going to come down. 10mm is never going to match 9mm in price, but I think we're likely to see a day where 10mm is available at under $20 a box, maybe $16-17.

Not sure if serious this gun and every other 10mm will have no meaningful influence on 10mm ammo prices at all. 10mm as much as I like it, will never be a caliber produced at a level that would create a downward pressure on ammunition pricing. "Because a cheap gun exists" changes nothing.

Also, in 2023 DA/SA is not really conducive to carry. This is an option marketed towards boomer fudds in a format they might be more familiar with, now that used smith 3rd gens are being poached by weird collectors.

 

[T-Unit]

Isnt the 45 a few years old at this point?

It just came out this year. I would know because I bought the Hi Point last year thinking, "Man, I wish there was a more practical .45 in DA/SA that was under $400 that wasn't a 1911." and then Taurus came out with that exact pistol this summer.

At least the Hi Point didn't set me back too much.

 

[T-Unit]

Not sure if serious this gun and every other 10mm will have no meaningful influence on 10mm ammo prices at all. 10mm as much as I like it, will never be a caliber produced at a level that would create a downward pressure on ammunition pricing. "Because a cheap gun exists" changes nothing.

Also, in 2023 DA/SA is not really conducive to carry. This is an option marketed towards boomer fudds in a format they might be more familiar with, now that used smith 3rd gens are being poached by weird collectors.

With a street price of about $400 for the Taurus and $200 for the Hi Point, I think you underestimate the appeal these 10's are going to have for people of low income means who still want to own guns that are good tools. The 10mm is a potent caliber for out on the frontier where creatures larger than a Black woman on public assistance waiting in line at Walmart are encountered and are just as nasty. We up in the Northeast aren't use to seeing that (except those in Mooseland called Maine and upper NH), so those cheap semi autos that hold 10 or 15 rds of .357 Magnum levels of power will become popular over the next 5 to 10 years regardless of how shitty the triggers are.

And, while I have no issue with DA/SA, I will not dismiss the likelihood that the Taurus DA pull is horribly heavy and terrabad. The benefit is you don't have to carry it in DA mode, you can do it cocked and locked. Why Taurus went with the TH over a striker polymer for a 10mm and .45 IDK, maybe there's an appeal for them in other countries.

Back to the original point, for how many decades what has the entry level price been for a 10mm? Probably over $500 relative to today's prices. With the AWB having ended in 04, we've only had about 20 yrs where people could get into a high capacity 10mm and only Glock was really making them and those have always been $600 pistols. Coming out with something a third or two thirds the price puts more 10mm's into hands they otherwise might not have been willing or able to afford.

Affordability changes the status quo, look at how Ruger changed the market by releasing a 5.7 for almost half the price that FN wants, now suddenly the cost to get into 5.7 has gone from a grand to $400 and demand for ammo has gone up. Gee, I wonder why?

I think all the smoke from the cigar lounges has... clouded your judgement.

 

[jkelly1229]

It just came out this year. I would know because I bought the Hi Point last year thinking, "Man, I wish there was a more practical .45 in DA/SA that was under $400 that wasn't a 1911." and then Taurus came out with that exact pistol this summer.

At least the Hi Point didn't set me back too much.

Its been a long year lol

Alright then guess im wrong

 

[T-Unit]

Its been a long year lol

Alright then guess im wrong

This year went fast for me and outside of work has sucked ass. My only solution for next year is work less OT and take more time off, but then I'll be sitting around not knowing what to do with myself.

 

[drgrant]

With a street price of about $400 for the Taurus and $200 for the Hi Point, I think you underestimate the appeal these 10's are going to have for people of low income means who still want to own guns that are good tools. The 10mm is a potent caliber for out on the frontier where creatures larger than a Black woman on public assistance waiting in line at Walmart are encountered and are just as nasty. We up in the Northeast aren't use to seeing that (except those in Mooseland called Maine and upper NH), so those cheap semi autos that hold 10 or 15 rds of .357 Magnum levels of power will become popular over the next 5 to 10 years regardless of how shitty the triggers are.

And, while I have no issue with DA/SA, I will not dismiss the likelihood that the Taurus DA pull is horribly heavy and terrabad. The benefit is you don't have to carry it in DA mode, you can do it cocked and locked. Why Taurus went with the TH over a striker polymer for a 10mm and .45 IDK, maybe there's an appeal for them in other countries.

Back to the original point, for how many decades what has the entry level price been for a 10mm? Probably over $500 relative to today's prices. With the AWB having ended in 04, we've only had about 20 yrs where people could get into a high capacity 10mm and only Glock was really making them and those have always been $600 pistols. Coming out with something a third or two thirds the price puts more 10mm's into hands they otherwise might not have been willing or able to afford.

Affordability changes the status quo, look at how Ruger changed the market by releasing a 5.7 for almost half the price that FN wants, now suddenly the cost to get into 5.7 has gone from a grand to $400 and demand for ammo has gone up. Gee, I wonder why?

I think all the smoke from the cigar lounges has... clouded your judgement.

I sold a shitload of guns at retail over 3 years. 10mm doesn't sell that well. One new gun from Taurus will generate a little interest but this isn't some kind of market disruption event. You need to step away from the glue bottle I think.

FWIW....anybody who's concerned about price on a 10 mm handgun.... has no business touching 10 mm to begin with... I mean really? You don't buy a jet if you can't afford to put gas in it.

Even with things like the high point 10 mm the carbine is the most popular option because it's purchased by people who already own other 10 mm firearms and can afford to feed them... and dude like f***ing $100-200 delta on a 10mm handgun really? Really? outside of the rando's during covid that we're just buying everything none of the people I know that were buying tens are poor.


The 5.7 thing by the way is a horribly false correlation. Even before Ruger released those guns 5.7 ammo was actually difficult to come by... I know because I sold other 5.7 guns before and after it came out and we were selling tons of everything in every caliber. 5.7 supply became an issue because people were literally buying any gun in any caliber they could get their hands on. We sold FN five sevens as well, and those didn't stay in stock very long either... yeah sure the rugers sold to more people but not by leaps and
bounds. I think half of the rugers that I sold went to people who either currently had an FN or had had an FN 5.7 in the past and just wanted something different. Nobody is buying those guns on price point because they're so expensive to feed to begin with people were mostly interested in the Ruger because it was something /different/ not because of the price. And at least at one point during covid Madness, Ruger was able to out produce FN in terms of putting guns on the market for sale.

Something that you need to remember is during covid Madness basically almost no guns experienced shelf rot, outside of maybe things like Deagles, NAA 22s and other weird garbage like that. Even things like Bond Arms Derringers actually sold pretty well. ( I hate derringers but I'm also willing to recognize that they're not nearly as stupid as an NAA 22 or a deagle)

Using sales in that part of time to gauge the overall viability of a caliber is completely insane. You could have released a handgun made out of sintered MIM dog feces in that time frame and sold all of them.

 

[drgrant]

@T-Unit let me also put this out there.... do you know what market saturation is? 10mm as a market has about as much absorption as one of those dog shit off brand paper towels from the largest pack you can buy at the dollar store. It doesnt take very long before saturation is reached.

Where I worked... we had an order book, which was essnetially a binder with people seeking X, Y or Z firearm. At any one given time there were hundreds of entries in this book, I doubt maybe more than 3-5 of them involved 10mm in any meaningful way. Even though the covidretards bought 10s off the shelf, the actual shoppers? not many. 10mm is largely an enthusiast caliber. The typical post-2013 SH retard, as a point of contrast, isnt buying a 10mm.

Will this gun generate interest? Sure. But it's not going to make a ton of people buy 10mm handguns that wouldn't ever be buying them otherwise. And I would wager a fair guess that at least 70% of the buyers are going to be people who already have another handgun chambered in 10mm or have already owned another 10mm in their lifetime.

I've only been watching this for a little while. Like, 20 years. Even back then... most of the manufacturers batched out 10s because they didn'tr want to punch themselves in the
dick, it is trivally easy to make more 10s than the market can accept. Even Krapber, marketer of marketers, would only crank out 10mm 1911s in a batch like once every couple years or so because it was way too easy to oversaturate the market with guns and cause gluts and price wars. Or even if that wasnt happening, dists didnt like them sitting around.

 

[T-Unit]

@drgrant But Krampusimber isn't Taurus making 10mm's at $400, they're making hipster 1911's at upper middle class Boomer coomer prices.

You can't equate what 1911 shit from 20 years ago is to semi-modern polymer high capacity 10's today.

Market saturation is a reality, but it depends on price point. Today you release a $500 9mm and it's like trying to be a new pot dealer in Jamaica. There aren't many options for 10mm at $400 and I do not think that the main customer for the Taurus, let alone the Hi Point, are going to be current owners of 10mm pistols. As I said, I own a 10mm Glock, IDK if I'm going to buy the Taurus. If this were 2019 and I didn't own a 10mm, I would consider the Taurus cuz it's so cheap, $300 cheaper than the Glock I ended up buying.

 

[drgrant]

@drgrant But Krampusimber isn't Taurus making 10mm's at $400, they're making hipster 1911's at upper middle class Boomer coomer prices.

Again, poors don't buy 10mm. Hell even most of the 10mm HiPoint buyers are more SKINFLINT vs poor. They bought them A: because of the carbine existence, and B: because they were just curious about how shitty the handgun was or wanted a cheap truck gun or whatever. I even know well off guys that have the 10mm shitpoint Carbine "cause its fun" or
whatever.

You can't equate what 1911 shit from 20 years ago is to semi-modern polymer high capacity 10's today.

You missed the point... my point was that if you could saturate the 10mm market EASILY with "more expensive" but still value priced 1911s etc, then it shows the market for t hose guns is
soft. It always has been, it always will be.

BTW the MARKET LEADERS, the G20 and G29, don't sell that well either, in the grand scheme of things. And those two guns easily outsell all the other 10mms combined. But that really isn't saying much.

Market saturation is a reality, but it depends on price point.

Lol, you still don't get it, if the market for 10mm is TINY (which it is) its always going to saturate easily. Adding a cheap gun into the mix that launches it idsn't going to
attract hordes of people to an expensive caliber that they already weren't ever interested in shooting.

Will Taurus sell this gun pretty well? Sure.... for a gun in 10mm. But this isn't something that is going to move thousands of units in a year even. It might even do something like outsell Smith's piece of shit mensturation and pee 10mm that nobody buys that already has earned a bad reputation. I can see it doing that. I can see it creating a little splash motion like a 5 year old jumping in a puddle in the market in that one little window, but that's about it. Honestly I think Taurus probably did this as a genius marketing move to try to advance the legitimacy of their company in a small way.

Don't take this as me crapping on this gun or even on Taurus. Taurus continues to suck at most things, but it's not going to likely be because of this gun.

The point I am trying to make is even if Taurus produced this gun and sold it at retail for $200 it's not going to make new people run to 10mm. (although I would buy one at $200 for the
hell of it, but it's not going to supplant a Glock. )

Today you release a $500 9mm and it's like trying to be a new pot dealer in Jamaica.

That's cute but there are like literally HUNDREDS more potential 9mm buyers for every ONE potential 10mm buyer. In some big gun shops or box stores that ratio might be more like 1000 to 1.

There aren't many options for 10mm at $400 and I do not think that the main customer for the Taurus, let alone the Hi Point, are going to be current owners of 10mm pistols.

How to tell me you've never worked in the industry without telling me....

When it comes to guns in weird calibers enthusiasts and regulars at the ones buying the overwhelming majority of them especially during a time when the market is in a steady
state kind of thing.

As I said, I own a 10mm Glock, IDK if I'm going to buy the Taurus. If this were 2019 and I didn't own a 10mm, I would consider the Taurus cuz it's so cheap, $300 cheaper than the Glock I ended up buying.

Not sure why that would ever enter the conversation, if you can afford 10mm $300 really isnt an earth shattering amount of money. If I felt that way about it I certainly wouldn't
own a 10mm to begin with. Like, at all, because it would be fiscally irresponsible regardless of the cost of the handgun. And honestly for anyone that shoots in any real volume, the gun cost gets lost in the noise unless your gun costs thousands of dollars or something. Quibbling over a few hundo on the price off a handgun is retard/flint speak. I don't get it. And if someone is REALLY budget limited/constrained, they have ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS being within 1000 miles of buying a gun in 10mm Auto to begin with.

 

[Ultrarunner]

It really does come down to the numbers here...at $400 you're too close to Glock 20 territory...at $300 it makes sense. If they priced it at G3 level they'd sell like hotcakes and it doesn't cost a whole lot more than a polymer 9 to manufacture anyway...

I might break my "only buy USA made firearms" to test this out as a truck gun if it's close to the $300 mark..

 

[drgrant]

It really does come down to the numbers here...at $400 you're too close to Glock 20 territory...at $300 it makes sense. If they priced it at G3 level they'd sell like hotcakes and it doesn't cost a whole lot more than a polymer 9 to manufacture anyway...

I might break my "only buy USA made firearms" to test this out as a truck gun if it's close to the $300 mark..

I still don't think price will be a real deciding factor here for most. This is different from other guns in the segment. People will buy it if it's not junk. The only way I could see price being a factor is you might catch some people on the way out of dumping a smith hygeieproduct 10mm they got spurned by. The Taurus is probably not far off the trade value of one of those. That makes it tempting for somebody who's already been hosed on a bad gun perhaps or at least it's a second chance...

 

[Ultrarunner]

I still don't think price will be a real deciding factor here for most. This is different from other guns in the segment. People will buy it if it's not junk. The only way I could see price being a factor is you might catch some people on the way out of dumping a smith hygeieproduct 10mm they got spurned by. The Taurus is probably not far off the trade value of one of those. That makes it tempting for somebody who's already been hosed on a bad gun perhaps or at least it's a second chance...

There's that polymer Tangfolio/EAA in the segment but I've never seen one in any gun store ever...

 

[KBCraig]

The typical purchaser will buy it with one box of 50 rounds, shoot 10, load both mags, and leave it.

 

[drgrant]

The typical purchaser will buy it with one box of 50 rounds, shoot 10, load both mags, and leave it.

Out of the clientele that I serviced most of those guys would probably at least beat the piss out of the thing. 10mm is an enthusiast caliber. I get what you're saying though within the target demo of Boomer fudds that they're trying to Target with that gun yeah sure those few guys are going to do exactly what you say I believe that 100%.

 

[T-Unit]

Again, poors don't buy 10mm. Hell even most of the 10mm HiPoint buyers are more SKINFLINT vs poor. They bought them A: because of the carbine existence, and B: because they were just curious about how shitty the handgun was or wanted a cheap truck gun or whatever. I even know well off guys that have the 10mm shitpoint Carbine "cause its fun" or whatever.

The 10mm Hi Point carbine is quite possibly one of the better 10mm carbines out there, even if it is cucked with proprietary mags. The reason being there aren't that many other 10mm PCC's around. There's the TNW, uses Glock mags, and just looks bland and unfun to shoot full power 10mm in such a light weight carbine.

BTW, I hear the Hi Point 10mm runs .40 just fine.

You missed the point... my point was that if you could saturate the 10mm market EASILY with "more expensive" but still value priced 1911s etc, then it shows the market for t hose guns is soft. It always has been, it always will be.

BTW the MARKET LEADERS, the G20 and G29, don't sell that well either, in the grand scheme of things. And those two guns easily outsell all the other 10mms combined. But that really isn't saying much.

It's obvious that people don't want 10mm in 1911's and some people either don't like Glocks or don't want to pay the price for the Glock in 10mm. It doesn't surprise me that the Glock is the best selling 10mm, it's only been on the market for 30+ years continuously, that tends to help.

But, offering alternative options in a less popular caliber can change the status quo.

Lol, you still don't get it, if the market for 10mm is TINY (which it is) its always going to saturate easily. Adding a cheap gun into the mix that launches it idsn't going to attract hordes of people to an expensive caliber that they already weren't ever interested in shooting.

Sure, it's small, but it's apparently profitable enough that ammo manufacturers are able to make it for less than .45 ACP. That's not because they're using less lead, they're running off enough because demand is there. 10mm hasn't had much time or success to sell that many pistols the past 30 years, it's kind of tough to build up a base for any handgun caliber that's been around for 50 or 100 years like 9, .45, .38, .357, and .44 have, even ones like .25 and .32 are on the strugglebus because companies have stopped making them due to a change in consumer belief they're not good enough.

I don't think anyone would say 10mm isn't enough gun for a dollar or two more a box than .45 is. The holdup is it's not as cheap as 9mm, $200 guns haven't been available for it like 9mm has had, and it doesn't have the 110 year headstart that .45 pistols have had that get passed down.

Will Taurus sell this gun pretty well? Sure.... for a gun in 10mm. But this isn't something that is going to move thousands of units in a year even. It might even do something like outsell Smith's piece of shit mensturation and pee 10mm that nobody buys that already has earned a bad reputation. I can see it doing that. I can see it creating a little splash motion like a 5 year old jumping in a puddle in the market in that one little window, but that's about it. Honestly I think Taurus probably did this as a genius marketing move to try to advance the legitimacy of their company in a small way.

Don't take this as me crapping on this gun or even on Taurus. Taurus continues to suck at most things, but it's not going to likely be because of this gun.

The point I am trying to make is even if Taurus produced this gun and sold it at retail for $200 it's not going to make new people run to 10mm. (although I would buy one at $200 for the hell of it, but it's not going to supplant a Glock. )

When I talk to guys in their 20s and 30s there's a few calibers they talk about for pistols, 5.7 is first, 10mm is the second. Their focus is capacity and power, the 5.7 has the capacity, the 10mm has the power.

What stops them from buying into both is the ammo situation with 5.7 and 10mm it's lack of good, affordable options. I'll take your word for it that the S&W is shit, the Glock is tough for them to find at a good price (same probably goes for the Springfield), and everything else is a 1911.

I'll check in with these guys and see what they think on the Taurus 10mm.

When it comes to guns in weird calibers enthusiasts and regulars at the ones buying the overwhelming majority of them especially during a time when the market is in a steady state kind of thing.

I won't disagree with you here and when the economy sucks people are less inclined to buy anything.

Not sure why that would ever enter the conversation, if you can afford 10mm $300 really isnt an earth shattering amount of money. If I felt that way about it I certainly wouldn't own a 10mm to begin with. Like, at all, because it would be fiscally irresponsible regardless of the cost of the handgun. And honestly for anyone that shoots in any real volume, the gun cost gets lost in the noise unless your gun costs thousands of dollars or something. Quibbling over a few hundo on the price off a handgun is retard/flint speak. I don't get it. And if someone is REALLY budget limited/constrained, they have ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS being within 1000 miles of buying a gun in 10mm Auto to begin with.

So, you think that if someone isn't willing to part with $300 on a pistol that they're probably only going to buy a couple boxes of ammo for, they shouldn't bother buying any guns?

Talk about elitist mentality. I'm sure if you had your way nothing under $500 for a gun would be allowed.

 

[drgrant]

The 10mm Hi Point carbine is quite possibly one of the better 10mm carbines out there, even if it is cucked with proprietary mags. The reason being there aren't that many other 10mm PCC's around. There's the TNW, uses Glock mags, and just looks bland and unfun to shoot full power 10mm in such a light weight carbine.

It's easy to be the best when you're basically the only thing available. The reason there aren't other options is there is no demand. The Hi Point engineer guy probably just sold it because its probably a couple of machining options different from their .45 model. So "why not?" at that point.

BTW, I hear the Hi Point 10mm runs .40 just fine.

I'm sure it does but sure thats a hi point owner type of thing.

It's obvious that people don't want 10mm in 1911's

Nah, it's more obvious that most gun buyers don't want 10mm period. The 1911 sales lacking is just emblematic of lack of demand for the caliber in general.

and some people either don't like Glocks or don't want to pay the price for the Glock in 10mm. It doesn't surprise me that the Glock is the best selling 10mm, it's only been on the market for 30+ years continuously, that tends to help.

If they can't afford a Glock then they have bigger problems. Especially if they're talking about launching 10mm out of it. I agree with the rest of that statement. Ergonomically the guns are a nightmare for some people, I get that part of it. People with oddly shaped hands, a G29 or G20 will beat them up a bit. That said, you had guns on the market like the witness 10mm, the XD 10mm, and now the smith 10mm, and they all are/were softer than fresh dog poop in sales. And none of those guns are/were terribly expensive.

But, offering alternative options in a less popular caliber can change the status quo.

I hate to break it to you, but it won't. It won't even make a dent. Just like the smith, just like the XD 10mm, the earlier witness steel guns, etc. The market is pretty fixed and not
expanding. This Taurus offering will change absolutely nothing about that. It'll give a handful of people another 10 to play with, but this isn't some radical paradigm shift. This is like
claiming that because Hyundai showed up it was going to change the entire car industry.

The part you are having difficulty with is just how small the existing 10mm market is. It's tiny. You know how they show those things about space with the relative size of the planets vs one another? And earth is usually this pin prick thing that you can barely see or maybe is the size of a pea? That's 10mm in a "gun universe" perspective view.

Sure, it's small, but it's apparently profitable enough that ammo manufacturers are able to make it for less than .45 ACP. That's not because they're using less lead, they're running off enough because demand is there.

Lol... 10mm demand is minimal bordering on the bottom of all sales. 10mm was one of the last calibers to disappear during the covid onslaught in 2020. I could reliably buy 10mm up until like the end of the summer.... at reasonable prices (relative to what 10mm usually costs) The same could not be said for most of the others.

Also no ammo manufacturer in their right mind is going to leave money on the table with 10mm if they don't have to compete over sales. Not sure if you realize this, but I would bet
nearly anything that the ammo industry is similar to other industries where the profit margins on less common stuff are cranked up a bit because they know the consumers in that segment will literally just pay the extra because they need the ammo more than they need to flint. 10mm is one of those calibers that is never going to move out of that pocket. The manufacturers have determined that people who buy commercial 10mm are not that price sensitive.

10mm hasn't had much time or success to sell that many pistols the past 30 years, it's kind of tough to build up a base for any handgun caliber that's been around for 50 or 100 years like 9, .45, .38, .357, and .44 have,

Using your shitlogic (TM) .44 mag should be cheap then, no? It's not, its pretty expensive despite being around forever. I mean the bullet doesn't weigh any more than a .45 does.... the reality is things like .44 mag and 10mm are priced the way they are because they can get the money for it. Nothing will ever change that because those calibers are well out of the mainstream by hundreds of miles.

As another example.... .38 SPL has been around forever, at one time it was DOMINANT, and is still popular amongst revolver shooters. It's crazy expensive now for what it
is. (actually since I started shooting, I think 38 has actually gone WAY up vs 9mm in relative terms in price. ) Why? Because the base will pay it. . The industry is not going to turn away free cash.

Even 38 though is still way higher ranking than 10mm auto is, in terms of raw sales. During covid BS 38 disappeared like 9mm, 380, 45 and even 40 did. 10mm outlasted even 40 because... nobody was buying it. Then eventually the enthusiasts like ourselves were like "shit, I better go clean up gun store X before someone figures it out) and then poof, the last of the pre covid 10mm was gone.

even ones like .25 and .32 are on the strugglebus because companies have stopped making them due to a change in consumer belief they're not good enough.

Lol how about no.... They're on the strugglebus because they are objectively terrible and nobody wants 25s or 32s. f***,. that... noise.
There are a whole host of reasons why those are basically dead calibers, but the primary one is because they are a terrible value prop vs a small .380 .

Actually they are probably far worse selling than 10 is, if only because 10mm is actually useful/marginally relevant.

I don't think anyone would say 10mm isn't enough gun for a dollar or two more a box than .45 is.

Nobody will say that ever because the people shopping for .45s are buying .45s and they don't care about 10mm. It's basically invisible to
most of them.

The holdup is it's not as cheap as 9mm,

It will never be as cheap as 9mm. I'm not sure why you have trouble comprehending this fact.

$200 guns haven't been available for it like 9mm has had, and it doesn't have the 110 year headstart that .45 pistols have had that get passed down.

It's more complicated than that, also keyed into the fact that both of those are still prominent law enforcement calibers. 10mm was... for 10 seconds.

Even *puke* .40 S&W will continue to outsell 10mm, basically forever. Because .40 still is an LE caliber, and it has an installed base of probably millions of
guns. Oh and that gem of a cartridge didn't appear long after 10mm either.

When I talk to guys in their 20s and 30s there's a few calibers they talk about for pistols, 5.7 is first, 10mm is the second. Their focus is capacity and power, the 5.7 has the capacity, the 10mm has the power.

And both are basically novelties, for different reasons. Although you could at least argue that 10mm is infinitely more useful.

What stops them from buying into both is the ammo situation with 5.7 and 10mm it's lack of good, affordable options.

That is literally never going to change on the ammo front for either one of those. The market is not going to move for a couple of
hipsters. That's like a hipster approaching me at a cigar shop and going :

Hipster: "I would buy Torpedo shaped cigars if it wasn't cost inefficient relative to a toro"
Me: "I get it... but they're not going to leave money on the table because you and I think it's stupid. The market has already identified that it's not making that
vitola for price sensitive people, and that it would actually lose a lot of money by doing so. There are a ton of cigar sizes like this that harbor the same price inefficiency because of
the sales/marketing calculus involved in that price. The price involves more than simple supply/demand economics. "

The industry as a whole has basically NOTHING to gain by making 10mm cheap. It's not going to solve anything and will just make them less money. And those
weird hipsters you speak of that are cost sensitive are just going to buy something else. They're not going to go "if eeeeyey cant get a 10mm for $200 and ammo for 20 bux a
bawx then im not buying a gun at all!!!! *POUT* " that simply is not reality.

I'll take your word for it that the S&W is shit, the Glock is tough for them to find at a good price (same probably goes for the Springfield), and everything else is a 1911.

I'll check in with these guys and see what they think on the Taurus 10mm.

Do they wear fedoras and have weird goatees? Regardless these people do not represent mainstream handgun buyers. (the bulk of sales)

Let me put this out there nobody ever comes into a gun shop and says "what guns do you have in 10mm" they are more likely to say "do you have a G20/29/ smith / 1911 in 10mm"
whatever" because the avg 10mm buyer is not average to begin with, in any way. Even the boomer fudd that wants a 10mm is well outside of the median of all handgun buyers.

So, you think that if someone isn't willing to part with $300 on a pistol that they're probably only going to buy a couple boxes of ammo for, they shouldn't bother buying any guns?

Never said that, but rather that these people are usually idiots. Most of them are being cheap not on need (and anyone thats on a REAL budget is not looking beyond 9mm, basically ever) they're being cheap based on being skinflints. Unless the intent is to buy the thing and barely ever shoot it. Which there is a segment of people that do that, sure, most of these are boomers that might want a woods gun or something, but they're never going to shoot enough 10mm to alter that market. Taurus will sell some of these things but this isn't a gun that
a shop is going to buy 10 of at a time. And in the time all the 10mms in the store shelf rot, shitloads of (insert every other common caliber here) will sell exponentially more of.

Talk about elitist mentality. I'm sure if you had your way nothing under $500 for a gun would be allowed.

There's nothing elitist about it, someone who evalutes a gun choice strictly based on the base cost of the gun is usually but not always an imbecile, and a couple hundred bucks swing on a handgun in a non mainstream caliber that will never be inexpensive is kinda meaningless/noise. We're talking handguns under $1000 here, if someone really wants something in 10mm, the price discrimination factor isn't there. "I would buy a 10mm if the handguns were cheaper" said no one, ever. The gun price has literally never been part of the lack of demand for 10mm.

 

[T-Unit]

@drgrant So you're basically saying that nothing in terms of ammo cost and availability is ever going to change from now until the next century because the market is driven by noobs who only want to buy 9mm because it's either the cheapest handgun ammo or because it's what's the most available at a store?

You're probably right, about the only thing that's come down in price somewhat when inflation is factored in is .380 and that was due to pocket pistols like the LCP coming about when concealed carry was taking off in the 90s and 00s.

On the .38 and .44, I think the major factor with those is the revolver market is very small and I'd think a larger number of people who own and shoot them regularly reload, especially for the .44. The .38, always has been popular for competition, was the most popular handgun for decades, but it's been antiquated by 9mm autos and now it's fading. The ammo situation for it shows that there isn't much demand because for years after Covid it was unavailable while 9mm kept getting stacked up on shelves.

I never said I expect 10mm to be cheaper than 9mm, nothing ever will be. You can't get to 9mm prices unless you replace 9mm and 9mm will never be replaced because it's the cheapest. That's the cycle: cheep=popular and it stays popular because it's the cheapest.

I may as well just hop on the groupthink and say everything should be in 9mm, there should be 9mm bolt actions, lever actions, shotguns, because there's no need for anything else and how dare anyone suggest I pay more than $20 for a box of *insert other caliber here* when 9mm is much less and not just good, but better than every other caliber because it's cheaper.

 

[tuna]

I'm interested in 10mm. And I'm not an automatic Taurus hater, so this really caught my eye. But I stopped reading the article when I got to the paragraph that started:

"Taurus, a renowned name in the firearms industry..."

Come on! Like I said, I'm not a hater - but I'll acknowledge that a huge portion of gun owners hate them just because of the name and past reputation. Can't take the rest of the article seriously now.

 

[T-Unit]

I wouldn't doubt it if Taurus changed their name to Aries or Leo the visceral hatred might subside a bit and increase sales, but not Cancer, nobody likes Cancer and it would confuse people at the range.

"Hey Bob, how's it going?"

"I got a Cancer."

"Oh shit, how long you got?"

"IDK, it use to be Taurus, so maybe 2 more weeks?"

 

[Stape]

Kinda like the 28ga paradigm, Ammo is expensive cause nobody buys it, but 28ga guns are expensive, but the guys who own 28ga's don't care about the cost of ammo

IRT 10mm, I load for it, so cost and availability is moot, I'd be interested in a cheaper platform vs my Glocks or buying a nice 1911.

 

[Ultrarunner]

FWIW, this argument really only applies to New England....go into any gun shop in the entirety of the rocky mountains and ask them what the hottest trend in ammo/handgun sales is...10mm. Prior to the latest slowdown you couldn't keep a Glock 20 on the shelf...

People that don't even hunt or hike have an obsession with thinking a bear is around every bush...

 

[drgrant]

@drgrant So you're basically saying that nothing in terms of ammo cost and availability is ever going to change from now until the next century because the market is driven by noobs who only want to buy 9mm because it's either the cheapest handgun ammo or because it's what's the most available at a store?

I'm saying the ammo cost is driven by calibers that are relevant. 10mm is generally not relvant, it's like the equivalent of a Dvorak keyboard or even less relevant than those left handed scissors kids used to use in elementary school. That is literally never going to change, because the distance that has to be crossed for that to happen is huge. I don't think you comprehend the scale of this. Ammo factories likely don't even run dedicated full time 3 shift lines to produce 10mm under normal circumstances.

You want cheap 10mm ammo? Get law enforcement to adopt it. If the FBI hadn't crapped out on 10mm and PDs had started using it, 10mm would be priced right around the same as .45 ACP.... but good luck with that actually happening. Nobody is going down that road again.

You're probably right, about the only thing that's come down in price somewhat when inflation is factored in is .380 and that was due to pocket pistols like the LCP coming about when concealed carry was taking off in the 90s and 00s.

Meh, 380 hasn't come down for shit, however I will say because of the fact that it is a relevant caliber it has remained somewhat stable in price in a peer relative sense, unlike things like .38 SPL that seem to be far worse in cost in relative terms than they used to be. The large number of guns in .380 at least encourages stability.

On the .38 and .44, I think the major factor with those is the revolver market is very small and I'd think a larger number of people who own and shoot them regularly reload, especially for the .44. The .38, always has been popular for competition, was the most popular handgun for decades, but it's been antiquated by 9mm autos and now it's fading. The ammo situation for it shows that there isn't much demand because for years after Covid it was unavailable while 9mm kept getting stacked up on shelves.

My point with the comparison was there are SHITLOADS more .38 and .44 magnum revolvers (Let's face facts, it is exponentially easier to find someone with a 38 or a .44 than a 10mm anything. ) in circulation and the ammo is still way more expensive than the median, because it's still outside of the mainstream. 10mm is like that, but deeper in the hole even.

Sure some people reload, but TBH that segment of shooters is almost statistically irrelevant compared to the median. Part of your problem is you are looking at this with an enthusiast lens. This is the not the bulk of the market WRT new gun buyers.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Deg7VrpHbM


Action pistol sports etc, like IDPA, USPSA, or even SASS or whatever are well outside the median. If we used something like "anyone who ever participated in a real action pistol match of some sort in any of the like 3 big disciplines" as a metric, that's literally less than a single digit % of people who walk through the door at a gun shop.

There are probably 100 million gun owners in the US now (or something north of the old 80 million described years ago).

I never said I expect 10mm to be cheaper than 9mm, nothing ever will be. You can't get to 9mm prices unless you replace 9mm and 9mm will never be replaced because it's the cheapest. That's the cycle: cheep=popular and it stays popular because it's the cheapest.

Lol it's a lot more than that, its litterally "the cheapest thing that happens to be very effective" and its also a common LE caliber.

But expecting 10mm to drop any meaningful amount at all is absurd, to be clear.

I may as well just hop on the groupthink and say everything should be in 9mm, there should be 9mm bolt actions, lever actions, shotguns, because there's no need for anything else and how dare anyone suggest I pay more than $20 for a box of *insert other caliber here* when 9mm is much less and not just good, but better than every other caliber because it's cheaper.

There is no "groupthink" it's just market economics. Relevant cartridges (especially ones in use in LE etc) are going to cost less than ones that are nearly irrelevant and have user/demand base the size of a thimble. 9mm might as well be a lake and 10mm is a dixie cup filled with water. That is the part you're just not getting here.

 

[Coyote33]

View: https://www.instagram.com/p/C4gCZsbI-zu/