The Conference Committee has sent official language out - h.4885

This is the key for sure and frankly I never underestimate the ability of the Republicans to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
I don't mean to be a downer, but I feel like I've come to the conclusion that it's not Democrats that want a disarmed society, it's the government. Democrats just to it openly. SCOTUS has had opportunities in Heler and Bruen to write language that was bullet proof and not open for interpretation. They now have the chance with the Illinois and Maryland cases to stop State implemented AW and mag bans but I'm not holding my breath.
 
Correct. Although if the state said to the ATF, no that 10/1/16 lower isn’t legal, but we’re choosing not to enforce it… would the ATF said okay cool approved? I feel like no?
The ATF making a incorrect assumption as to Mass law doesn't hold sway over the interpretation of that law.
 
So are 80s (like Glock pistols) really affected by this or no? What if you owned a few Glock frames but haven’t finished the build yet
No, glocks were never banned
The only restriction was a dealer couldn't transfer it.

Again - Glocks are 100% perfectly legal to possess with an LTC
 
The ATF making an incorrect assumption as to Mass law doesn't hold sway over the interpretation of that law.
Good point. I wonder what happens in that instance? Are those owners contacted? Not like they don’t know what you have.
 
But this is speculation since it will take a court to legally clear up the ambiguous language (the state cannot do this post Loper)

I agree, and I believe (maybe wishful thinking) that there is more than enough ambiguity here to keep it out of court.

Realistically, the State is aware that there is very little likelihood of any of these firearms (or their owners) ever showing up in the legal system, and they also know that if they push it, the law's poor wording provides enough reasonable doubt to drive an Abrams tank through.

They don't like guns, but even more than that, they don't like looking like fools in front of a judge. Even potentially.
 
My interpretation of the odd language in the copies and duplicates section is that pre 7/20 is to be treated the same as pre 94 - so no issues with evil features.
Post 7/20 until 8/1 will be exempt in a compliant form but can't be restored to a non-compliant form.

But this is speculation since it will take a court to legally clear up the ambiguous language (the state cannot do this post Loper)
That’s a new interpretation and an interesting one. And I think it comes down to if you’re exactly correct, it’ll have to be hashed out in the courts.

Edit: Saw your earlier reply and think we’re largely aligned. Sounds like we’re in a state of press conference 2.0.
 
I know this is depressed thinking, but regarding overturning this POS law - don’t hold your breath. MA doesn’t care how bad this law is. They know it will wreak havoc for gun owners who try to abide by the rules for years and year before anything is forced to change.

>.There is likely no blanket way to overturn the entire law so it has to be done piecemeal.

> It could take years for suitable cases to go to court and lose (no settlements) so they can be appealed up the chain.

> Defendants have to be willing to risk incarceration and ruining their family’s lives so see it through. So it likely needs to be an unmarried defendant or one with little to lose.

> It’s gonna take a boatload, rather a shipload of money that individuals and perhaps even local orgs don’t have. So fundraising.

> The cases may get dragged out for years? at each level and stage of appeal. This will be part of the plan.

> It’s going to take an extremely talented legal team; and even then there is no guarantee.

> Failed attempts can keep depleting the war chest.

> If and it’s a big IF, that anything ever makes it to SCOTUS, actually wins and causes the law in MA to change

> What happens if MA legislature amends the section of the law in question while under appeal? What happens if they drop the case during appeal? Do we start all over again?

Bottom line is that I will likely be dead and buried before things improve in this hellhole.

I guess all we can do is follow those great words “Fight, fight, fight” and keep trying.
 
Last edited:
I agree, and I believe (maybe wishful thinking) that there is more than enough ambiguity here to keep it out of court.

Realistically, the State is aware that there is very little likelihood of any of these firearms (or their owners) ever showing up in the legal system, and they also know that if they push it, the law's poor wording provides enough reasonable doubt to drive an Abrams tank through.

They don't like guns, but even more than that, they don't like looking like fools in front of a judge. Even potentially.
Unless Judge Auntie Bev gets the case.
 
I know this is depressed thinking, but regarding overturning this POS law - don’t hold your breath. MA doesn’t care how bad this law is because they know it will wreak havoc for gun owners who try to abide by the rules for years and years, if ever, before anything is forced to change.

They don't really care. They don't plan on enforcing this. This is mostly virtue signaling. This law can stay on the books for the next three hundred years with nobody on either side paying it the slightest attention: that is unlikely to bother them. They've got their press release allowing them to claim they are First In The Nation At Keeping Their Streets Safe, and soon they'll have a photo op at Healy's bill signing; that's all they want.

The new law has already had its impact, before it's even in effect: positive press, a PR victory, gun owners shitting their pants, and 99% of them complying voluntarily. I bet they'll take the win.
 
So are 80s (like Glock pistols) really affected by this or no? What if you owned a few Glock frames but haven’t finished the build yet
There are multiple categories of impact:
1) Simple possession
2) Buying/selling face to face citizen to citizen
3) Buying/Selling via a MA Dealer/FFL
4) Moving into the state with weapons you already possess
5) Building your own

As far as I can tell, pistols are only impacted on 3), they are no longer able to be frame transferred if they are on the appropriate rosters. That's dealer sales.
Private parties can continue to possess and transfer to each other directly. Dealers can not unless the gun happens to be on roster.
The new law does specify that you must register the frames whether you build them or not.
They are now considered firearms in the new law, and therefore subject to registration requirements. Assuming you're into that kind of thing...
There is nothing I can see that says you can't build it. You aren't a dealer so no roster requirements, and I don't believe the CMR language about consumer safety applies to you either.
Buy all the frames you want now.
Oh and 80% needs to be serialized now, assuming you're into that kind of thing...


My interpretation of the odd language in the copies and duplicates section is that pre 7/20 is to be treated the same as pre 94 - so no issues with evil features.
Post 7/20 until 8/1 will be exempt in a compliant form but can't be restored to a non-compliant form.

But this is speculation since it will take a court to legally clear up the ambiguous language (the state cannot do this post Loper)

Please cite the specific language that leads you to speculate what you can and can't do with regards to restoring and compliance.

ETA:

The ATF making a incorrect assumption as to Mass law doesn't hold sway over the interpretation of that law.

Please cite the specific language in Mass Law that changed on 7/20/16.
 
They know it will wreak havoc for gun owners who try to abide by the rules for years and year before anything is forced to change.

This is why I don't plan to bother trying. There's enough havoc in my life; I'm not about to let the state cause more. They can get in line.

 
There are multiple categories of impact:
1) Simple possession
2) Buying/selling face to face citizen to citizen
3) Buying/Selling via a MA Dealer/FFL
4) Moving into the state with weapons you already possess
5) Building your own

As far as I can tell, pistols are only impacted on 3), they are no longer able to be frame transferred if they are on the appropriate rosters. That's dealer sales.
Private parties can continue to possess and transfer to each other directly. Dealers can not unless the gun happens to be on roster.
The new law does specify that you must register the frames whether you build them or not.
They are now considered firearms in the new law, and therefore subject to registration requirements. Assuming you're into that kind of thing...
There is nothing I can see that says you can't build it. You aren't a dealer so no roster requirements, and I don't believe the CMR language about consumer safety applies to you either.
Buy all the frames you want now.
Oh and 80% needs to be serialized now, assuming you're into that kind of thing...




Please cite the specific language that leads you to speculate what you can and can't do with regards to restoring and compliance.
It is actually more complicated than that.


The new law also states that any personally made firearm has to comply with all federal and state laws.
This means independent safety testing and destructive testing of whatever you make. So you can't make one. You have to make something like 5, pay an exorbitant fee for testing, wait on the report, then make the one you want to keep if it passes all the tests.

If this stands, LEGALLY making your own firearms in Massachusetts is gone.

I am convinced this isn't a bug, but a well planed feature of the evil folks pulling the strings of the legislature.
 
I know this is depressed thinking, but regarding overturning this POS law - don’t hold your breath. MA doesn’t care how bad this law is because they know it will wreak havoc for gun owners who try to abide by the rules for years and years, if ever, before anything is forced to change.

>.There is likely no blanket way to overturn the entire law so it has to be done piecemeal.

> It could take years for suitable cases to go to court and lose (no settlements) so they can be appealed up the chain.

> Defendants have to be willing to risk incarceration and ruining their family’s lives so see it through. So it likely needs to be an unmarried defendant or one with little to lose.

> It’s gonna take a boatload, rather a shipload of money that individuals and perhaps even local orgs don’t have. So fundraising.

> The cases may get dragged out for years? at each level and stage of appeal. This will be part of the plan.

> It’s going to take an extremely talented legal team; and even then there is no guarantee.

> Failed attempts can keep depleting the war chest.

> If and it’s a big IF, that anything ever makes it to SCOTUS, actually wins and causes the law in MA to change

> What happens if MA legislature amends the section of the law in question while under appeal? Do we start all over again?

Bottom line is that I will likely be dead and buried before things improve in this hellhole.

A depressing but accurate prediction.

I'm an old fart, so I might not live to see it through. I'm sitting here right now, playing with our two grandsons, and hoping that this battle now will eventually result in them regaining some freedoms.

To paraphrase Thomas Paine, "If there must be trouble, let it be in my time, that my grandchildren may know freedom."
 
This is the parallel I’m trying to create here. Pre-94 ARs are completely legal in MA. Zero question. No argument.

There is an argument here that post-7/20 ARs are not lawfully possessed. Why? Dealers were not shut down selling lowers during inspections. ATF approved Form 1s after state confirmation. CLEO notifications sent for each form.

The new law only mentions 1994 twice. Once for Appendix A exempt rifles and once for mags. People are making the assumption the intent of the new law is to criminalize post-7/20 ARs but in the text of the law it makes zero distinction based on manufacture date if it was first in the state on 7/20 or later. It’s a copy or duplicate.

I agree (not a lawyer so means nothing) with Dean, Attorney Tassel, and others that ARs up until 8/1 are (most likely) okay. But if you’re in the camp that they’re aren’t, I see any lower or rifle that’s a copy/dupe first in state 7/20 or later in the same boat. In practicality I can see the risk of being charged lower.

I mostly agree. Though I’d say it’s more than an assumption about the intent of the language in the law. It’s a presumption as it’s based on evidence. There’s only one reason for them to include 7/20 in the text of the law the way they did.

I also agree that if you have a post 7/20 rifle/lower, you’re most likely okay. As we have 8 years of precedent showing 7/20 to be meaningless, and 18 years before that of precedent showing that a copy/duplicate isn’t just any AR. There is also the fact that the new law says nothing about post 7/20 being unlawfully possessed prior to 8/2.

However, you’re wrong about ANY copy/dupe rifle/lower in the state after 7/20 being in the same boat. Yes, the law doesn’t mention ‘93/94 except for those two times, but it doesn’t need to. If someone bought a 1993 preban in 2018, it would have been 100% zero questions legal. Not even Healey could argue against it. And the new law only stipulates that the new “preban” was lawfully possessed prior to 8/2.

This creates four buckets:
1. Any AR lawfully possessed prior to 7/20
2. Any pre-94-ban lawfully possessed prior to 8/1
3. Any AR purchased post-7/20 and pre 8/1
4. Any AR purchased post 8/1, and before the bill goes into effect


Buckets 1 and 2 are functionally identical. This is where the extra money spent on “preban” status before becomes meaningless.

Bucket 3 is almost certainly never going to have any problems. But the state is clearly trying to say it is different, insinuating that post 7/20 was not lawfully possessed. In the end, yes it will probably end up being just the same as an original pre-94-ban. And the whole section of the new law discussing post-7/20 copies and duplicates will be meaningless for anything prior to 8/1. But it’s still not totally equivalent to buckets 1 and 2 above.

Bucket 4 will be seen as illegal according to the state once the law goes into effect. But anybody buying a lower post 8/1 should just play by big boy rules.
 
Last edited:
It is actually more complicated than that.


The new law also states that any personally made firearm has to comply with all federal and state laws.
This means independent safety testing and destructive testing of whatever you make. So you can't make one. You have to make something like 5, pay an exorbitant fee for testing, wait on the report, then make the one you want to keep if it passes all the tests.

If this stands, LEGALLY making your own firearms in Massachusetts is gone.

I am convinced this isn't a bug, but a well planed feature of the evil folks pulling the strings of the legislature.

I assume we are referencing:

Manufacturing Restrictions:​

  1. Section 121C. (d):
    • "No person shall manufacture or assemble a privately made firearm that does not comply with all relevant state and federal safety regulations".

Specific Provisions for Privately Made Firearms:​

  1. Section 121C. (c):
    • "No person shall manufacture or assemble a privately made firearm without: (i) obtaining a unique serial number from the department of criminal justice information services prior to manufacture or assembly; (ii) serializing the firearm with the obtained serial number during manufacture or assembly; and (iii) registering the firearm with the department of criminal justice information services in accordance with section 121B within 7 days of the firearm’s manufacture or assembly"

This is pretty broad, and I can't see anything in H4885 specifying what the relevant state regulations are. Have they changed?
If they haven't changed, why would any of the state regulations to dealers/manufactures suddenly apply to private parties? What made them "relevant" as of H4885?
 
It is actually more complicated than that.


The new law also states that any personally made firearm has to comply with all federal and state laws.
This means independent safety testing and destructive testing of whatever you make. So you can't make one. You have to make something like 5, pay an exorbitant fee for testing, wait on the report, then make the one you want to keep if it passes all the tests.

If this stands, LEGALLY making your own firearms in Massachusetts is gone.

I am convinced this isn't a bug, but a well planed feature of the evil folks pulling the strings of the legislature.

Nope. There are zero federal or state laws requiring personally made firearms to be safety tested. We do not have the same requirements as an 07 FFL.
 
The ATF making a incorrect assumption as to Mass law doesn't hold sway over the interpretation of that law.

While true, one of the cases against Healey’s decree was thrown out because nobody would likely be prosecuted. Wouldn’t that hold sway?
 
My interpretation of the odd language in the copies and duplicates section is that pre 7/20 is to be treated the same as pre 94 - so no issues with evil features.
Post 7/20 until 8/1 will be exempt in a compliant form but can't be restored to a non-compliant form.

But this is speculation since it will take a court to legally clear up the ambiguous language (the state cannot do this post Loper)
LOL, like walking thru a minefield blindfolded.
 
LOL, like walking thru a minefield blindfolded.

Once you realize most of the mines are fake, though, that becomes a much easier walk.

The mines look real, and they're designed to inspire fear. But the state didn't bother to put any C4 into them. They know they didn't have to; they've got the effect they want.

All it requires to defeat them is the courage to remind yourself the mines won't hurt you.
 
> Defendants have to be willing to risk incarceration and ruining their family’s lives so see it through. So it likely needs to be an unmarried defendant or one with little to lose.

> It’s gonna take a boatload, rather a shipload of money that individuals and perhaps even local orgs don’t have. So fundraising.

If y'all have the $. I have the time. Most days all I have is my name and the shrinking freedoms they "permit" here.

I really don't feel like moving, although it's certainly been on my mind since October. Maybe by the time I'm up for renewal I'll be ready to leave. Who knows.


Until then, here I am.
Send me.
 
Once you realize most of the mines are fake, though, that becomes a much easier walk.

The mines look real, and they're designed to inspire fear. But the state didn't bother to put any C4 into them. They know they didn't have to; they've got the effect they want.

All it requires to defeat them is the courage to remind yourself the mines won't hurt you.
The key word is "most" of the mines are fake. That infers that some are real....
 
I mostly agree. Though I’d say it’s more than an assumption about the intent of the language in the law. It’s a presumption as it’s based on evidence. There’s only one reason for them to include 7/20 in the text of the law the way they did.

I also agree that if you have a post 7/20 rifle/lower, you’re most likely okay. As we have 8 years of precedent showing 7/20 to be meaningless, and 18 years before that of precedent showing that a copy/duplicate isn’t just any AR. There is also the fact that the new law says nothing about post 7/20 being unlawfully possessed prior to 8/2.

However, you’re wrong about ANY copy/dupe rifle/lower in the state after 7/20 being in the same boat. Yes, the law doesn’t mention ‘93/94 except for those two times, but it doesn’t need to. If someone bought a 1993 preban in 2018, it would have been 100% zero questions legal. Not even Healey could argue against it. And the new law only stipulates that the new “preban” was lawfully possessed prior to 8/2.

This creates four buckets:
1. Any AR lawfully possessed prior to 7/20
2. Any pre-94-ban lawfully possessed prior to 8/1
3. Any AR purchased post-7/20 and pre 8/1
4. Any AR purchased post 8/1, and before the bill goes into effect


Buckets 1 and 2 are functionally identical. This is where the extra money spent on “preban” status before becomes meaningless.

Bucket 3 is almost certainly never going to have any problems. But the state is clearly trying to say it is different, insinuating that post 7/20 was not lawfully possessed. In the end, yes it will probably end up being just the same as an original pre-94-ban. And the whole section of the new law discussing post-7/20 copies and duplicates will be meaningless for anything prior to 8/1. But it’s still not totally equivalent to buckets 1 and 2 above.

Bucket 4 will be seen as illegal according to the state once the law goes into effect. But anybody buying a lower post 8/1 should just play by big boy rules.
Largely agreed here. Bucket 4 I also bet will be frowned upon if dealers are still selling. There’s still plenty of time for people to buy by 8/1 so no need to take on the extra risk.
 
I mostly agree. Though I’d say it’s more than an assumption about the intent of the language in the law. It’s a presumption as it’s based on evidence. There’s only one reason for them to include 7/20 in the text of the law the way they did.

I also agree that if you have a post 7/20 rifle/lower, you’re most likely okay. As we have 8 years of precedent showing 7/20 to be meaningless, and 26 years total of precedent showing that a copy/duplicate isn’t just any AR. There is also the fact that the new law says nothing about post 7/20 being unlawfully possessed prior to 8/2.

However, you’re wrong about ANY copy/dupe rifle/lower in the state after 7/20 being in the same boat. Yes, the law doesn’t mention ‘93/94 except for those two times, but it doesn’t need to. If someone bought a 1993 preban in 2018, it would have been 100% zero questions legal. Not even Healey could argue against it. And the new law only stipulates that the new “preban” was lawfully possessed prior to 8/2.

This creates four buckets:
1. Any AR lawfully possessed prior to 7/20
2. Any pre-94-ban lawfully possessed prior to 8/1
3. Any AR purchased post-7/20 and pre 8/1
4. Any AR purchased post 8/1, and before the bill goes into effect


Buckets 1 and 2 are functionally identical. This is where the extra money spent on “preban” status before becomes meaningless.

Bucket 3 is almost certainly never going to have any problems. But the state is clearly trying to say it is different, insinuating that post 7/20 was not lawfully possessed. In the end, yes it will probably end up being just the same as an original pre-94-ban. And the whole section of the new law discussing post-7/20 copies and duplicates will be meaningless for anything prior to 8/1. But it’s still not totally equivalent to buckets 1 and 2 above.

Bucket 4 will be seen as illegal according to the state once the law goes into effect. But anybody buying a lower post 8/1 should just play by big boy rules.
The nuance here is that it’s possible for an AR to pass the new tests (feature and copy ) if it’s a pre-2016 lower and rimfire upper. And not be an AW under the new law (whatever benefits that brings)

To get pre-8/1 grandfathered the rifle needs to fail the new law’s AW tests (in it’s as possessed configuration on 8/1) - a center fire AR on a pre-2016 lower will fail the feature test and be grandfathered, a post-2016 rifle will fail the feature test and the copy-duplicate test and be grandfathered. Both would be equally pre-8/1 grandfathered since anything that fails any of the new laws criteria on 8/1 is grandfathered.
 
The key word is "most" of the mines are fake. That infers that some are real....

Yes, absolutely. They'll enforce the ERPO stuff, because that's a winner politically. They'll probably whine loudly about Ghost Guns they seize, if you're dumb enough to get caught with one in a way they can't ignore.

But the more esoteric stuff? No way. Think of it this way: NES is without doubt the biggest and best-informed collection of practical, applied knowledge about MA gun law. This site is packed with people who spend a lot of time and money making it their business to be legal with firearms in this Commonwealth. It's also a relatively free place to exchange ideas and understandings of those legalities. There are even a few legit attorneys here giving their views among several very informed and articulate laymen.

All that, and there is still ZERO consensus on the date stuff and the feature stuff.

If we can't understand that, it's unlikely a government lawyer can do any better. A police officer might arrest us anyway (because they're stupid enough to try), but my guess is that a DA will quietly tell him to hold off next time. Yes, that's just my opinion, but I'm staking my own freedom on that. So I clearly believe it pretty firmly.
 
Back
Top Bottom