CrackPot
NES Member
One of the most amazing things in the new legislation. I could not believe my eyes when I read this. Better than the RI language which allows carrying through RI.
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The Conference Committee has sent official language out - h.4885
- Thread starter GOAL
- Start date
pastera
NES Member
We don't fight for ourselves, we fight that our children and grandchildren may live peaceful lives of freedom.
That we do so standing on the shoulders of the giants that fought for our freedoms should induce great humility and introspection upon our duty to our progeny.
CrackPot
NES Member
Pardon the new thread. The main thread is cluttered and putting this in one clean post as a summary I am hoping is helpful. I don’t believe in Healey and I think GOAL has its head up it’s ass on a number of issues and this reflects that
Practical implications of H4885 for purchasing and possessing
A billion “but what about me?” questions in the main thread so I figure giving a single post describing what to buy when might help.
The new law was signed on 7/25/24 according to the press release. It was done so without an emergency preamble. This means NOTHING CHANGES until it goes into effect on 10/23/24. All current laws are in effect unchanged until 10/23/24.
You can buy anything currently legal. This means any/all off roster handguns via frame transfer. This means any/all semi auto rifles or shotguns with compliance done. This means any/all frames or receivers of potential assault-style weapons. You can do this until 10/23/24.
BUT only items possessed lawfully ON (not before, on) 8/1/24 are grandfathered from being unlawful ASWs once the new law takes effect. So while you can continue to purchase AR lowers, for example, through 10/23/24, only ones lawfully possessed on 8/1/24 will continue to be legal.
So there is no rush to buy right now EXCEPT that which will be an ASW once the new law goes into effect. The rush to buy is all the ARs and similar evil semi auto rifles and shotguns that you need to get by 8/1 to be grandfathered. So buy these by midnight on Thursday 8/1. Regular off roster handguns or non CMR compliant handguns like glocks or most CZs, etc you can skip buying for now and get anytime before 10/23/24.
Now, what about all the cool stuff I now own that I need to be grandfathered. Do I register my lowers? What do I need to do? The short answer is NOTHING. The law says you need to lawfully possess on 8/1. It also says it must be registered in accordance with 121B and serialized in accordance with 121C.
121B is the NEW state wide database where every gun in the state must be registered. The state has one year to implement. Once implemented every transaction must be validated in the system and the gun registered to the new owner and unregistered from the old owner. Everyone will have another year to register everything they currently own. You will need to register what you have before you can transact it to sell if you sell before the one year and have not yet registered it. This is 121B.
You cannot register anything today to satisfy this requirement. Today we have a database of transactions, not a database of registered guns and owners. YOU DO NOT NEED TO “REGISTER” BEFORE 8/2 to be in compliance with the new law or prove anything. The fact that you recorded a transaction in the current system PROVES nothing.
You can/should follow the current law. If you “purchase or obtain” a firearm, rifle or shotgun from other than a Ma dealer, LTC holder or fid holder, then record the transaction within seven days of “purchasing or obtaining”. Do this to be legal with today’s law, not because it is in anyway needed for the new law. It does nothing relative to the new law and the future 121B which might not take effect until late 2025.
For the state to successfully charge you with a violation of the new 131M ASW violation, the burden of proof is on them to prove that the firearm was NOT lawfully possessed by a MA dealer or LTC holder on 8/1/24. Prove a negative. Good luck. In practice they run a trace request with the ATF. It will show when manufactured, when sold to the distributor, when sold to the dealer and when the 4473 transferred it to a person. If it was manufactured after 8/1/24 then you are in trouble. But if they can’t prove it could have been in the state lawfully on 8/1, they are done. In most cases there will be a 4473 showing you bought it on or before 8/1 because you did. In summary if you lawfully own it on 8/1, you are good.
Some other things go bump on 10/23/24. If you have only a FID anything semi auto you own is now illegal for you to have. This is the single biggest taking in the new law and should be an easy challenge in court. But assuming no court action, all FID holders must get rid of their semi auto guns before 10/23/24. Yup, you are getting screwed. This also hits all the FUDDs with FIDs with Ruger mini 14s and 10/22s.
On 10/23 dealers will longer be able to sell ANYTHING not on the roster. This includes all rifles, shotguns, machine guns, frames, and receivers. Yup, when it takes effect we can sell on roster handguns and nothing else. Until they add each and every possible bolt gun, pump shot gun, lever rifle, etc, we cannot sell them even though they are perfectly legal to have. Another major insanity of the new law ans kikely a mistake. They made all firearms subject to the roster in 123 (o). This was the same in the old law when a “firearm” was a not rifle or shotgun. Not a firearm is a pistol, rifle, shotgun, machine gun etc. Failing to change this language took out all sales except what is on the current handgun roster. Another easy court challenge but these take time.
So it you need a nice new shotgun to hunt this year, get it before 10/23 since dealers can no longer sell you anything.
Summary
Buy ARs and related future evil guns before 8/2. Follow the current law. Don’t “register” stuff because you think it is required or helps with the new law.
Buy everything else you want before 10/23 because dealers won’t be able to sell anything after that except boring on roster handguns.
Write letters to your state senator and rep asking why they banned you from buying a new pump shotgun for hunting turkeys this year.
FID holders get rid of all your semi auto long guns before 10/23
Side note. What about Healey and 7/20/2016. This is a red hearing. If the gun is lawful now it’s still lawful. If you think the press conference on 7/20/16 made things magically illegal, then ok, they are illegal. Otherwise the language in the new law just makes pre 7/20/16 guns that you owned and registered (side not saying registered here in the new law is impossible since we don’t have registration proving that they don’t even understand the laws we have) BEFORE 7/20/16 NOT a copy or duplicate. They are still subject to the feature test which they will fail so all grandfathering comes from the 8/1 language in 131M. And it says BEFORE. All the guns people rushed to buy ON 7/20/16 don’t count. Ha. Stupid.
It adds up to a nothing burger. If it’s legal on 8/1 it’s still legal after the new law. The Healey language changes nothing. Maybe it makes your gun MORE legal, but I can’t come up with an actual example that it impacts. Healey sycophants like Jason Guida says it proves Healey was right and all post 2016 are illegal. Bah.
Practical implications of H4885 for purchasing and possessing
A billion “but what about me?” questions in the main thread so I figure giving a single post describing what to buy when might help.
The new law was signed on 7/25/24 according to the press release. It was done so without an emergency preamble. This means NOTHING CHANGES until it goes into effect on 10/23/24. All current laws are in effect unchanged until 10/23/24.
You can buy anything currently legal. This means any/all off roster handguns via frame transfer. This means any/all semi auto rifles or shotguns with compliance done. This means any/all frames or receivers of potential assault-style weapons. You can do this until 10/23/24.
BUT only items possessed lawfully ON (not before, on) 8/1/24 are grandfathered from being unlawful ASWs once the new law takes effect. So while you can continue to purchase AR lowers, for example, through 10/23/24, only ones lawfully possessed on 8/1/24 will continue to be legal.
So there is no rush to buy right now EXCEPT that which will be an ASW once the new law goes into effect. The rush to buy is all the ARs and similar evil semi auto rifles and shotguns that you need to get by 8/1 to be grandfathered. So buy these by midnight on Thursday 8/1. Regular off roster handguns or non CMR compliant handguns like glocks or most CZs, etc you can skip buying for now and get anytime before 10/23/24.
Now, what about all the cool stuff I now own that I need to be grandfathered. Do I register my lowers? What do I need to do? The short answer is NOTHING. The law says you need to lawfully possess on 8/1. It also says it must be registered in accordance with 121B and serialized in accordance with 121C.
121B is the NEW state wide database where every gun in the state must be registered. The state has one year to implement. Once implemented every transaction must be validated in the system and the gun registered to the new owner and unregistered from the old owner. Everyone will have another year to register everything they currently own. You will need to register what you have before you can transact it to sell if you sell before the one year and have not yet registered it. This is 121B.
You cannot register anything today to satisfy this requirement. Today we have a database of transactions, not a database of registered guns and owners. YOU DO NOT NEED TO “REGISTER” BEFORE 8/2 to be in compliance with the new law or prove anything. The fact that you recorded a transaction in the current system PROVES nothing.
You can/should follow the current law. If you “purchase or obtain” a firearm, rifle or shotgun from other than a Ma dealer, LTC holder or fid holder, then record the transaction within seven days of “purchasing or obtaining”. Do this to be legal with today’s law, not because it is in anyway needed for the new law. It does nothing relative to the new law and the future 121B which might not take effect until late 2025.
For the state to successfully charge you with a violation of the new 131M ASW violation, the burden of proof is on them to prove that the firearm was NOT lawfully possessed by a MA dealer or LTC holder on 8/1/24. Prove a negative. Good luck. In practice they run a trace request with the ATF. It will show when manufactured, when sold to the distributor, when sold to the dealer and when the 4473 transferred it to a person. If it was manufactured after 8/1/24 then you are in trouble. But if they can’t prove it could have been in the state lawfully on 8/1, they are done. In most cases there will be a 4473 showing you bought it on or before 8/1 because you did. In summary if you lawfully own it on 8/1, you are good.
Some other things go bump on 10/23/24. If you have only a FID anything semi auto you own is now illegal for you to have. This is the single biggest taking in the new law and should be an easy challenge in court. But assuming no court action, all FID holders must get rid of their semi auto guns before 10/23/24. Yup, you are getting screwed. This also hits all the FUDDs with FIDs with Ruger mini 14s and 10/22s.
On 10/23 dealers will longer be able to sell ANYTHING not on the roster. This includes all rifles, shotguns, machine guns, frames, and receivers. Yup, when it takes effect we can sell on roster handguns and nothing else. Until they add each and every possible bolt gun, pump shot gun, lever rifle, etc, we cannot sell them even though they are perfectly legal to have. Another major insanity of the new law ans kikely a mistake. They made all firearms subject to the roster in 123 (o). This was the same in the old law when a “firearm” was a not rifle or shotgun. Not a firearm is a pistol, rifle, shotgun, machine gun etc. Failing to change this language took out all sales except what is on the current handgun roster. Another easy court challenge but these take time.
So it you need a nice new shotgun to hunt this year, get it before 10/23 since dealers can no longer sell you anything.
Summary
Buy ARs and related future evil guns before 8/2. Follow the current law. Don’t “register” stuff because you think it is required or helps with the new law.
Buy everything else you want before 10/23 because dealers won’t be able to sell anything after that except boring on roster handguns.
Write letters to your state senator and rep asking why they banned you from buying a new pump shotgun for hunting turkeys this year.
FID holders get rid of all your semi auto long guns before 10/23
Side note. What about Healey and 7/20/2016. This is a red hearing. If the gun is lawful now it’s still lawful. If you think the press conference on 7/20/16 made things magically illegal, then ok, they are illegal. Otherwise the language in the new law just makes pre 7/20/16 guns that you owned and registered (side not saying registered here in the new law is impossible since we don’t have registration proving that they don’t even understand the laws we have) BEFORE 7/20/16 NOT a copy or duplicate. They are still subject to the feature test which they will fail so all grandfathering comes from the 8/1 language in 131M. And it says BEFORE. All the guns people rushed to buy ON 7/20/16 don’t count. Ha. Stupid.
It adds up to a nothing burger. If it’s legal on 8/1 it’s still legal after the new law. The Healey language changes nothing. Maybe it makes your gun MORE legal, but I can’t come up with an actual example that it impacts. Healey sycophants like Jason Guida says it proves Healey was right and all post 2016 are illegal. Bah.
pastera
NES Member
RI allows short stops required for travel (from what I understand, I haven't kept up to see any changes)
Therefore, RI is more permissive AFAIK
pastera
NES Member
Dude - GFY
Try showing with citations where my speculation is wrong
This "you're wrong, prove me wrong" shit is tiring
This is interesting and surprising but can't see it being personally useful. Maybe I'm missing something.
I can't imagine any practical situation where I'd be traveling through RI. Maybe to or from but not through.
The MA update probably only benefits people from CT or RI driving through MA with a full tank or have their significant other to pump gas?
I can't imagine any practical situation where I'd be traveling through RI. Maybe to or from but not through.
The MA update probably only benefits people from CT or RI driving through MA with a full tank or have their significant other to pump gas?
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Miller v. Bonta challenged a similar ban that we just got. It was filed in August of 2019. 5 years later and it is still on hold in 9th DC. The anti-gunners use tactics that will make this MA ban case crawl for another decade.
KH56010
NES Member
So, in 131M: (says possessed, not registered)
(b) Subsection (a) shall not apply to an assault-style firearm lawfully possessed within the
commonwealth on August 1, 2024, by an owner in possession of a license to carry issued under
section 131 or by a holder of a license to sell under section 122; provided, that the assault-style
firearm shall be registered in accordance with section 121B and serialized in accordance with
section 121C.
Then:
Assault-style firearm”, any firearm which is:
that has a receiver that is the same as or interchangeable with the receiver of an
enumerated firearm in said clauses (d) and (e); provided further, that the firearm shall not be
considered a copy or duplicate of a firearm identified in clauses (d) and (e) if sold, owned and
registered prior to July 20, 2016
(g) “Assault-style firearm”
And this:
“Firearm”, a stun gun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, sawed-off shotgun, large capacity
firearm, assault-style firearm and machine gun, loaded or unloaded, which is designed to or may
readily be converted to expel a shot or bullet; the frame or receiver of any such firearm or the
unfinished frame or receiver of any such firearm; provided, however, that “firearm” shall not
include any antique firearm or permanently inoperable firearm
So I have a unfinished AR15 receiver that I bought after 2016 and do legally possess on 8/1/24. It is now considered not banned under 131M. The definition of Assault-style firearm is any "firearm" that has a receiver of an AR15. The definition of Firearm includes any unfinished receiver. So, my Unfinished, none FA10'd and legally possessed stripped receiver for an AR15 can now be built up into a 6 inch pistol with a folding brace and a flash hider. I will then have to register it down the road when that system is created.
(b) Subsection (a) shall not apply to an assault-style firearm lawfully possessed within the
commonwealth on August 1, 2024, by an owner in possession of a license to carry issued under
section 131 or by a holder of a license to sell under section 122; provided, that the assault-style
firearm shall be registered in accordance with section 121B and serialized in accordance with
section 121C.
Then:
Assault-style firearm”, any firearm which is:
that has a receiver that is the same as or interchangeable with the receiver of an
enumerated firearm in said clauses (d) and (e); provided further, that the firearm shall not be
considered a copy or duplicate of a firearm identified in clauses (d) and (e) if sold, owned and
registered prior to July 20, 2016
(g) “Assault-style firearm”
And this:
“Firearm”, a stun gun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, sawed-off shotgun, large capacity
firearm, assault-style firearm and machine gun, loaded or unloaded, which is designed to or may
readily be converted to expel a shot or bullet; the frame or receiver of any such firearm or the
unfinished frame or receiver of any such firearm; provided, however, that “firearm” shall not
include any antique firearm or permanently inoperable firearm
So I have a unfinished AR15 receiver that I bought after 2016 and do legally possess on 8/1/24. It is now considered not banned under 131M. The definition of Assault-style firearm is any "firearm" that has a receiver of an AR15. The definition of Firearm includes any unfinished receiver. So, my Unfinished, none FA10'd and legally possessed stripped receiver for an AR15 can now be built up into a 6 inch pistol with a folding brace and a flash hider. I will then have to register it down the road when that system is created.
not new guy
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Is there any communication about all of this among MA dealers (aside from Mill neighbors)? I was in a shop yesterday and asked the question but he was as lost in this as most of us are.
I don’t know how dealers could go about banding together to get on the same page at least with respect to what can be sold between now and 10/23 - if not also how to fight all this - but it might help a lot of people out. For example, while I don’t expect dealers to ever get on the same page for long guns, if they can clearly sell handguns for the next 3 months without fear they should understand that.
I don’t know how dealers could go about banding together to get on the same page at least with respect to what can be sold between now and 10/23 - if not also how to fight all this - but it might help a lot of people out. For example, while I don’t expect dealers to ever get on the same page for long guns, if they can clearly sell handguns for the next 3 months without fear they should understand that.
Appreciate the post and the clarity on interpretation at the beginning.
Also wanted to add: I've seen several sellers say they won't be able to transfer pre-94 30rd magazines after 8/1. This seems wrong, the date should be 10/23/24.
Also wanted to add: I've seen several sellers say they won't be able to transfer pre-94 30rd magazines after 8/1. This seems wrong, the date should be 10/23/24.
Justice Thomas has made it clear he wants to take up an AWB case and will try to if the Illinois case makes its way back up to SCOTUS. Hopefully Illinois gets greedy and keeps appealing.
matt2491
NES Member
"Lawfully possessed" includes in dealer inventory, no? Can't people buy ASWs (AR lowers or otherwise) after 8/1 as long as it was on the dealer's books on 8/1?
not new guy
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The dealers can’t transfer them though.
I think the bigger issue is the committee has the power to add or delete anything from the roster and there is nothing in place to make them actual create a roster
No time frame , no repercussions for not making a roster.
No time frame , no repercussions for not making a roster.
Thank you. This is exactly the summary I've been looking for
CrackPot
NES Member
We can until 10/23
Have you tried simply being right? … all jokes aside….
People seem to have some reverence for you because you’ve put in alot of time on the subject. I don’t believe in “appeal to authority”, I believe in the best ideas win. You’ve got a lot of stuff right. I’ve learned a lot from your posts, and from others. You schooled me on the language that will likely result in the future de facto ban of private party manufacturing. Some people read your takes and are likely to believe what you say at face value. Some of your takes are supported by the law. Some are as you say, speculation. This is a really important detail. The status of post 7/20 rifles after the ban. You are speculating that they must stay MA compliant and I am pressing you to defend that with some reference to the laws as written. It’s literally one of the only/few silver linings to this whole epsiode of tyranny. They inadvertently threw us a bone. They turned EVERY semi auto center fire rifle mag fed rifle, possess on 8/1, with a shroud and a single other “evil feature” into a full blow pre ban have fun with it status. That’s a huge win. And you’re speculating that it’s a no go based on essentially zero supporting language other than “all language must have meaning so we can ignore everything else the law ACTUALLY says, and go with the worst interpretation mass can think of”.
You’re actually right, Mass will DEFINITELY try and do that, or at least it won’t surprise me. But that’s not what the law they just passed says. So, you win, it’s Mass Prudent to assume everything is illegal.
In terms of the actual law as written, you are wrong, and if you disagree, PROVE YOU ARE RIGHT. Or stop pissing in the cheerios of one of the few good things to arise out of this hot mess.
CrackPot
NES Member
I will not say you are wrong. I am sure this is not intended, but I came to the exact same conclusion you did.
Most Patrolmen won't question the Chiefs policies unless they want shit duty for the next 6 months. It's a dictatorship, not a democracy.
63 Foxtrot
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Thanks for an awesome breakdown of a confusing word salad. You have always had a great insight and clear explanation for the the rest of us!!!
Thanks for continuing the mission!
Thanks for continuing the mission!
What’s your take on grandfathered ASW’s being transferable by dealer? If I understand correctly, you can transfer a fully assembled Pre-94 AWB NON-Compliant build today, or is that wrong?
If so, would not a Pre-8/1 grandfathered ASW enjoy the same privileges? Meaning anything in your inventory as of 8/1 that fails the new ASW test would be exempted from the roster due to being a grandfathered ASW?
Build it with no hand guard, no delta ring or handguard cap. Hold it from the mag well. Still fails because of the receiver test.
CrackPot
NES Member
Nothing is roster exempt under the new law.
EJFudd
NES Member
Well, if you live in MA and possess a MA LTC, that one provision of the new MA law is not useful to you because it doesn't apply to you.
Tons of people travel through RI to get to someplace else... even from central MA to get to SE MA. RI is a very small state.
There is zero problem driving through MA to get from CT or RI to VT, NH or ME... unless, of course, you happen to drive an electric car.
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
From the other, closed thread:
These were recent questions and answers, which I think are pretty pertinent and the conversation got cut short because the thread got closed. I'm fine with simplifying the discussion, but did not want to lose this conversation.
These were recent questions and answers, which I think are pretty pertinent and the conversation got cut short because the thread got closed. I'm fine with simplifying the discussion, but did not want to lose this conversation.
Roadglide
NES Member
So this is where I’m getting confused. Does this mean anything we legally bought and possessed before 8/1 if they don’t meet the “new” criteria are now illegal?
safetyfirst2125
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Great summary, thanks.
