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The dreaded 40 conundrum
- Thread starter seanc
- Start date
Glockster30
NES Member
That's what I expected for a response; only half the story. In the meantime, I had already drafted my own response -
I look at the development of the .40 as being a more practical compromise rather than intentionally designed to be weaker. When the FBI did their testing on the 10mm circa 1990 in response to the poor performing 9mm, they determined that a 180gr bullet moving at 900 to 1,000 fps reached the "level of terminal performance" that they desired. Without delving into it deeper, I don't know what parameters the FBI used to define their level of terminal performance. However, what is known is that a 180gr bullet in a 10mm moving at 1,300 to 1,400 fps didn't make sense to them due to the heavier recoil that was difficult for some agents to handle when they could use a shorter case to reach their desired level of terminal performance. In addition, a shorter case with less air space and a cartridge that could be used in a 9mm sized gun, the .40 appeared to be an optimal compromise for them. The success of the .40 for the next 20-25 years after 1990 spoke for itself.
I think that some people, not including you, think that the advances in 9mm technology tend to make it a superior cartridge to the .40 or .45 when that is not the case. The advanced technology in the 9mm is also used in the .40 and .45 (and other calibers), so to me, the advanced 9mm makes it superior only when comparing it to the "old" specs/performance of the 9mm.
The lack of a +P rating for the .40 by SAMMI doesn't mean much of anything that I can see. Remington's High Terminal Performance 155gr .40 defense cartridge is rated at 1,205 fps and 500 ft. lbs., so that's nothing to sneeze at when it's loaded hotter than some commercial 10mm rounds. I presume that this performance is attained within SAAMI specs using a lighter weight bullet; otherwise, it would be marketed as +P.
I realize that I'm preaching to the choir for the most part, but I think that these distinctions in the development of the .40 need to be made.
Lol what do you thnk a compromise is? You lose something, usually. In this case they limited the maximum performance of the cartridge on purpose. S&W showed up and created the cartridge to capitalize on the FBI's fetish for neutered 10mm.
Mostly correct, except you're wrong about it being "successful". .40 started to die off in LE circles not long after 9/11. I remember taking my daily dump seeing those copies of CDNN catalog with the front of the catalog covered with various Smith and Glock models chambered in .40 S+W.... Then later when guns like the XD .45, 21SF, M&P .45 came out, etc, that started to push that rollercoaster over the top of the hill.
.40 was successful in the same way that Budweiser is successful. Except Budweiser will probably be a lot more popular longer than .40 ever was. I don't even know why they make commodity
handguns in it, I honestly think the only reason is "because if we dont, our competitor will, and gun shop commando guy will buy their gun instead". Those are the only people left buying .40s outside of the pistol competition sphere. (the ones heavily invested in energy transfer myth, never used a shot timer, etc. )
It wasn't so much that "advanced 9mm" exists its the fact the fog of bullshit surrounding handgun ballistics from the 80s and 90s has largely been ruled invalid/junk science. (see also, marshall and sanow, and strasbourg goat tests that never happened, amongst other things) And yes, better ammo helps too, but anyone who reads into this stuff has figured out that in terms of wound ballistics, these things are all in the same wound-ballpark given decent ammunition. The problem in the 80s and 90s was a lot of JHP ammunition existed in various calibers that was f***ing garbage. As in like, way worse than FMJ type garbage. And when the bad ammo failed the worst way possible, the effects of that were worse in 9mm. Now in 2019 there is still garbage but you have to go far off the reservation to obtain it. (insert gimmick ammo here, or skinflint special stuff).
It's not that "9mm is superior" it's that science figured out that it actually didn't suck (in terms of wound ballistics) nearly as much as previously thought. Although inherently, ironically enough, even the Secret Service knew this, and instead of fapping over the .40 at the time a lot of those guys carried the 9PBLE instead, which although "ancient" by todays standards was pretty well respected by the USSS, because they knew that even if the JHP failed to open it would at least penetrate far enough. Why the FBI never recognized this is baffling, maybe they didn't want to be made sport of by the SS guys that probably figured out that 9PBLE was good by shooting at a rump roast with it or something?
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
Yes, cosmetically, not the best example. The fact remains that it doesn't have a lot of headroom. Try to "experiment" with .40 S&W, if you use 180gr bullets it won't take much before the gun
blows up or you get a nice casehead blowout. On the other hand with other cartridges theres a much greater range of breathing room.
Meh. Even Sig's 10mm Practice ammo clocks in at like a power factor of 225 or something. Admittedly theirs is better than most on the market. That Rem stuff is what, 186? Meh. Not that hot. The razzle dazzle of the package numbers and the fireball it probably emits make it seem powerful, but in a hard metric (like power factor) not so much.
Yes it's within the spec because it's not really that hot.
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
Exciting? yes... but hot compared to 10mm? no. -Mike
Wut? I've been shooting 180 gr .40 bullets for a few years now. They don't shoot as flat as the old 155's, but less felt recoil, still accurate enough out to 50 yards.
I've never seen a case 'blowout' anything, I've seen guns break from the old 155's we shot, but I've never seen a case issue in 10's of thousands of rounds. Even with the Barettas, never saw case malformation. Not saying it 'can't' happen, just not by me and never heard it talked about at the water cooler.
With factory ammo, not likely. I'm talking about reloading, I should have been a bit clearer. Hell you can load 200gr. bullets in .40, but if you don't respect the book serious trouble may be afoot. Bullet setback is also an issue but if someone rechambers a round that many times they deserve it.... lol.
Glockster30
NES Member
I spoke about a "practical compromise" and not intentionally dumbing down the power and size of the 10mm. As I stated, the 180gr 10mm load moving at 900-1,000 fps met the terminal performance goals that the FBI desired, so why continue developing the full power load when their overall goal was already met? Since the full power load was too much for some of the agents and also caused some reliability issues in some of the handguns available at that time, the FBI tasked Federal to further develop the load, which resulted in the "10mm Lite" load. It was at this point that S&W realized that they could meet the same terminal performance with the Lite load that the FBI wanted with a shorter case. These developments happened in a continuum and was not just a simple decision to decrease the performance of the cartridge on purpose.
Mostly correct, except you're wrong about it being "successful". .40 started to die off in LE circles not long after 9/11. I remember taking my daily dump seeing those copies of CDNN catalog with the front of the catalog covered with various Smith and Glock models chambered in .40 S+W.... Then later when guns like the XD .45, 21SF, M&P .45 came out, etc, that started to push that rollercoaster over the top of the hill.
.40 was successful in the same way that Budweiser is successful. Except Budweiser will probably be a lot more popular longer than .40 ever was. I don't even know why they make commodity
handguns in it, I honestly think the only reason is "because if we dont, our competitor will, and gun shop commando guy will buy their gun instead". Those are the only people left buying .40s outside of the pistol competition sphere. (the ones heavily invested in energy transfer myth, never used a shot timer, etc. )
I don't know how it can be construed that the .40S&W wasn't successful when most of the LE agencies in the country were using it. It wasn't until 2016, a few short years ago, that the FBI decided on going back to the 9mm, so that gives the .40S&W better than a 20-year run, does it not?
It wasn't so much that "advanced 9mm" exists its the fact the fog of bullshit surrounding handgun ballistics from the 80s and 90s has largely been ruled invalid/junk science. (see also, marshall and sanow, and strasbourg goat tests that never happened, amongst other things) And yes, better ammo helps too, but anyone who reads into this stuff has figured out that in terms of wound ballistics, these things are all in the same wound-ballpark given decent ammunition. The problem in the 80s and 90s was a lot of JHP ammunition existed in various calibers that was f***ing garbage. As in like, way worse than FMJ type garbage. And when the bad ammo failed the worst way possible, the effects of that were worse in 9mm. Now in 2019 there is still garbage but you have to go far off the reservation to obtain it. (insert gimmick ammo here, or skinflint special stuff). [/QUOTE]
No argument from me on this. This all happened when LE was transitioning from revolvers in the late 1980s and 1990's even though some LE agencies were still using revolvers well into the 1990s.
It's not that "9mm is superior" it's that science figured out that it actually didn't suck (in terms of wound ballistics) nearly as much as previously thought. Although inherently, ironically enough, even the Secret Service knew this, and instead of fapping over the .40 at the time a lot of those guys carried the 9PBLE instead, which although "ancient" by todays standards was pretty well respected by the USSS, because they knew that even if the JHP failed to open it would at least penetrate far enough. Why the FBI never recognized this is baffling, maybe they didn't want to be made sport of by the SS guys that probably figured out that 9PBLE was good by shooting at a rump roast with it or something?
Not sure what relevance this has to the 10mm/.40 discussion, but if it makes you laugh, then I'm happy.
Yes, cosmetically, not the best example. The fact remains that it doesn't have a lot of headroom. Try to "experiment" with .40 S&W, if you use 180gr bullets it won't take much before the gun
blows up or you get a nice casehead blowout. On the other hand with other cartridges theres a much greater range of breathing room.
The restraints of the .40S&W case when using 180gr bullets should be well known by all reloaders, but since there are still ka-booms, not everyone has learned this lesson yet. I stopped using 180gr bullets years ago due to setback issues.
Meh. Even Sig's 10mm Practice ammo clocks in at like a power factor of 225 or something. Admittedly theirs is better than most on the market. That Rem stuff is what, 186? Meh. Not that hot. The razzle dazzle of the package numbers and the fireball it probably emits make it seem powerful, but in a hard metric (like power factor) not so much. Yes it's within the spec because it's not really that hot.
Exciting? yes... but hot compared to 10mm? no. I never remotely implied that the Remington 155gr was anywhere near as hot as full power 10mm loads. All I was stating is that it is a hot load for a .40S&W, especially for a defensive round, and that some manufacturers still market the 10mm Lite load under 500 ft. lb, if we want to call it that.
Glockster30
NES Member
It sure seems like the 40 does elicit more talk about it than any other caliber.
That's because the .40 is still relevant and liked by many shooters. Everyone thought the 10mm was on its death bed, but it has seen a resurgence in popularity in the past few years. Hopefully, some of the newer shooters can learn from these discussions that aren't intended to be caliber war debates.
In the end though, .40 S&W is an intentionally neutered round from its parent cartridge. You can keep dancing around it but that was the design intent of the whole thing, instead of trying to actually fix most of the
perceived problems without destroying the versatility of the cartridge.
Yes, it had a long run in federal LE. There's a ton of agencies still using it. That said, WRT FBI, why would you expect the people that caused the entire problem to dump it first?
The fact remains a metric shit ton of LE agencies dumped it as soon as they could find a way out.
Yes, it did, and I think that was part of the problem. Chief businblah wanted to take some guy's .357 magnum away, and it was easier to get "some guy" to suck for .40 than 9mm, at the time. If "some guy" is still a police officer that .40s long since been dumped for a .45 though....
Not sure what relevance this has to the 10mm/.40 discussion, but if it makes you laugh, then I'm happy.
It has a ton of relevance- my point with that sidebar was that at least one agency had "seeds of doubt" about this willingness by the FBI to fornicate over the new cartridge nobody but they, had asked for.
My point is you can do some fairly heinous and crazy shit with 9mm and .45 and still be below the limits where you'll blow something up. On the other hand with .40, forget it. You can basically really only go "down" with .40.
As a point of contrast, Underwood's .40 S&W 165gr load specs at 1200 FPS. that is "hot" for .40. That's like a gain of like 50 fps over typical factory stuff in the same weight. That tells me there's not a lot of wiggle room there, if Underwood isn't even willing to push it much. On the other hand you go get some underwood 9mm or .45 and you'll see specs of anywhere from 100-200 over typical in weight.
I never said you did, just that in the grand scheme of things it's not really that hot. Not even compared to the load I just mentioned above. .40 is "boxed into a corner" by design.
-Mike
![[popcorn]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/043.gif "Popcorn [popcorn]")
Glockster30
NES Member
In the end though, .40 S&W is an intentionally neutered round from its parent cartridge. You can keep dancing around it but that was the design intent of the whole thing, instead of trying to actually fix most of the
perceived problems without destroying the versatility of the cartridge.
Yes, it had a long run in federal LE. There's a ton of agencies still using it. That said, WRT FBI, why would you expect the people that caused the entire problem to dump it first?
The fact remains a metric shit ton of LE agencies dumped it as soon as they could find a way out.
Yes, it did, and I think that was part of the problem. Chief businblah wanted to take some guy's .357 magnum away, and it was easier to get "some guy" to suck for .40 than 9mm, at the time. If "some guy" is still a police officer that .40s long since been dumped for a .45 though....
It has a ton of relevance- my point with that sidebar was that at least one agency had "seeds of doubt" about this willingness by the FBI to fornicate over the new cartridge nobody but they, had asked for.
My point is you can do some fairly heinous and crazy shit with 9mm and .45 and still be below the limits where you'll blow something up. On the other hand with .40, forget it. You can basically really only go "down" with .40.
As a point of contrast, Underwood's .40 S&W 165gr load specs at 1200 FPS. that is "hot" for .40. That's like a gain of like 50 fps over typical factory stuff in the same weight. That tells me there's not a lot of wiggle room there, if Underwood isn't even willing to push it much. On the other hand you go get some underwood 9mm or .45 and you'll see specs of anywhere from 100-200 over typical in weight.
I never said you did, just that in the grand scheme of things it's not really that hot. Not even compared to the load I just mentioned above. .40 is "boxed into a corner" by design. -Mike
Mike, it's apparent that we are not going to agree with each other as noted by these discussions.
All I can say is that once the FBI ATTAINED their desired goal of reaching what they perceived as the best terminal performance for the round, there was no need to continue to develop it in their collective minds, and they didn't. So, if you want to continue to say that they "intentionally downloaded" it, I'm not going to debate that point any longer because as I said in the very beginning, there is more to the story.
With regard to LE federal agencies mostly using it, the majority of local/state LE agencies also used it. The last I heard, the BPD is still using the G22 while issuing G27s to detectives. If that has changed, it's only been very recent. The MSP moved to the .45 within the last couple of years and not the 9mm.
I also acknowledged and agreed with you that the .40 cannot be pushed beyond its current SAAMI pressure loading specs, so this is a moot point.
WRT Underwood, their 165gr loading is 524 ft-lb, which I don't think is statistically much different than Remington's 155gr loading at 500 ft-lb. However, Underwood's 155gr loads are rated at 582 ft-lb, which I would argue is statistically significant over Remington's loading. I guess much of it depends on who thinks what the term "hot loads" means.
It sure seems like the 40 does elicit more talk about it than any other caliber.
Because it's easily one of the top 5 most overrated handgun cartridges in existence, if not THE most overrated one.
I think what bothers me more than the cartridge itself though is when a gun shop commando goes full retard and promotes it. And then you see some poor bastard get swindled into a
.40, he can't shoot it for shit, then keeps it anywhere from 2 months to a year and dumps it, and gets hosed on the back end. This doesn't always happen, but it's happened more often
then I can reliably keep track of.
Newb Friend: "Hey mike I got my LTC blah blah blah"
Me: "Congratulations!"
Newb Friend: "I know you told me to get a Glock 17 or XD 9 but I got a Glock 22 because this guy I ran into at the gun store told me it was more powerful and I could get a conversion barrel for 9mm if I wanted."
Then inevitably, within a year 65% of these people are looking to unload the .40 because they done realized they f***ed up.
Most of these people aren't buying something that's nice to shoot a .40 out of, either. It's not like these guys are buying a Sig P229, a fullsize USP .40, or other
big guns (say like a 2011 or 1911 chambered in .40) that were built around the cartridge. They buy something like a Glock .40 that's snappy as f*** or too
lightweight for the cartridge, or a shield .40, or any number of other undesized guns, etc.
However you want to spin it. Facts don't lie, and the fact is that S&W hacked down 10mm, the FBI was happy and S&W was happy (because they could sell lots of shit). In the moment, that's all that really mattered to the players involved. However, long term, the rest of us got to watch this shitshow....
You know how when a really good movie comes out, but it was released on the same weekend as some lame as hell pattern-type superhero or disaster movie with better advertising or name recognition etc? but nobody remembers the actual good movie because the popular shitty movie was released the same weekend? That's exactly what .40 S&W is. It's the shitty movie that drowned out better movie.
Yes BPD is still on .40 I think they have G23s in service, too. But a metric ton of other agencies dumped .40, and MSP did a long as time ago, it's been more than " a few years" now.
The proof is in the pudding on the used market, most LE trade in handguns are in .40, by like a ratio of like 3 or even 4 : 1 easily. Are any agencies even moving TO .40? I doubt it at this point. A lot will likely stick
with it for some time to come, though, if anything because "it works" and the shortcomings aren't exploited enough to make a difference in some settings.
At least unlike other stopgap technology the .40 still has niche uses. . I won't go so far as to call it completely worthless. It also ended up birthing the .357 Sig which ended up being pretty decent. Like I said I used to carry the things exclusively, hell, I probably have more "belt time" with my HK .40s than almost anything else. The guns worked well and I had a decent amount of confidence with them. I've also loaded ammo for them too (without blowing guns up) etc. So it'll never be quite as bad as a CFL bulb, but I can safely say that if the day ever comes where some gun shop commando is crying because they're not going to make some stupidly small handgun in .40 anymore because the manufacturer finally realized it was completely f***ing stupid idea, this will be my reaction at his despair...
-Mike
widnerkj
NES Member
I’d tell you to look over at the swageing portion over at cast boolets. Though I’d wager EC could coach a class on .22lr brass into .223 projo’s, 9mm into .40, .40 into 45, and the rest of that fun.
Speaking about the FBI disliking the 10mm because it caused granular vaginal cellulitis, You know most FBI CI’s are accountants?
Dude, there's nothing wrong with the .40. Shoot WTF you want. Opinions are like ass holes... Everyone has them. Those that shove them in your face are just hemorrhoids. I like the caliber and like everything it has it's place. It is what it is.
I mean really, do you want to carry 10 rounds of 9mm, 10 rounds of .40 or 8 rounds of .45... If that's the choice what do you go with... Because that's often the choice MA residents face (depending on the firearm of course).
I mean really, do you want to carry 10 rounds of 9mm, 10 rounds of .40 or 8 rounds of .45... If that's the choice what do you go with... Because that's often the choice MA residents face (depending on the firearm of course).
Glockster30
NES Member
Because it's easily one of the top 5 most overrated handgun cartridges in existence, if not THE most overrated one.
However you want to spin it. Facts don't lie, and the fact is that S&W hacked down 10mm, the FBI was happy and S&W was happy (because they could sell lots of shit). In the moment, that's all that really mattered to the players involved. However, long term, the rest of us got to watch this shitshow....
You know how when a really good movie comes out, but it was released on the same weekend as some lame as hell pattern-type superhero or disaster movie with better advertising or name recognition etc? but nobody remembers the actual good movie because the popular shitty movie was released the same weekend? That's exactly what .40 S&W is. It's the shitty movie that drowned out better movie.
Yes BPD is still on .40 I think they have G23s in service, too. But a metric ton of other agencies dumped .40, and MSP did a long as time ago, it's been more than " a few years" now.
The proof is in the pudding on the used market, most LE trade in handguns are in .40, by like a ratio of like 3 or even 4 : 1 easily. Are any agencies even moving TO .40? I doubt it at this point. A lot will likely stick
with it for some time to come, though, if anything because "it works" and the shortcomings aren't exploited enough to make a difference in some settings.
At least unlike other stopgap technology the .40 still has niche uses. . I won't go so far as to call it completely worthless. It also ended up birthing the .357 Sig which ended up being pretty decent. Like I said I used to carry the things exclusively, hell, I probably have more "belt time" with my HK .40s than almost anything else. The guns worked well and I had a decent amount of confidence with them. I've also loaded ammo for them too (without blowing guns up) etc. So it'll never be quite as bad as a CFL bulb, but I can safely say that if the day ever comes where some gun shop commando is crying because they're not going to make some stupidly small handgun in .40 anymore because the manufacturer finally realized it was completely f***ing stupid idea, this will be my reaction at his despair...
Mike, you're going way off target (no pun intended) wrt the development testing protocols of the 10mm that led to the .40. I surmise that you got your info from reading gun writer interpretations of the 10mm story while you admittedly recall reading about this while sitting on the crapper.
To get the real story, you need to go directly to the source, which is the FBI and not some dumb gun writers making the wrong assumptions wrt to the FBI's testing protocols. When the FBI started testing new ammunition in the late 1980s, they initially focused on the 9mm and the .45. It was actually another section of the FBI that worked on the 10mm. When testing the commercial loads of the 10mm at that time, they found that the "high chamber pressures", the "heavy recoil", and the "muzzle blast, tended to offset the otherwise excellent performance of the round." This is what prompted the FBI to look into 10mm loadings that were more appropriate for their use.
In addition to the above, they also found that the increased velocities of the 10mm out of longer barrels (6") had a detrimental effect on the expansion and penetration of the hollow point rounds in their ballistic gel studies. It was due to this poor performance that they decided that a 180gr bullet in velocities around 950 fps while using a shorter barrel was more in line with the velocities of the 9mm/.45, which they found was optimal for what they wanted. They also found that the 10mm was a much more accurate round than the 9mm or .45.
You can keep pushing the incorrect narrative from gun writers that the FBI "intentionally dumbed down" or was "happy with hacking down the 10mm" when the real facts indicate that the higher velocities were actually a hindrance to the performance of the round as noted in the attached FBI report from 1989. So, what you describe as me spinning is actually what occurred during the development of the 10mm load that eventually led to the .40.
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/122334NCJRS.pdf
widnerkj
NES Member
Now we get a discussion about why there's so much discussion about the 40. It's overrated by some, but I'd say most of us realize it's just another caliber and that it's shot placement that counts more than caliber. Enjoy your day Mike!
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Soundwave
NES Member
I ended up buying a G22 after enjoying my brothers Beretta 96. The difference was noticable immediately. I still own and have "upgraded" the G22 which brought on it's on issue. I plan to keep it as I have a bunch of standard mags and holsters etc.. but I definitely recommend a steel gun for what it's worth.
Nope, but believe that if you want. My sidebar about the crapper/CDNN is referring to the mass exodus of .40 S&W handguns from law enforcement starting in the 2000s. Once more players started studying wound ballistics and other factors, and other guns got introduced, it started to fade in popularity to some degree. Not saying everyone dumped it or will dump it (I think it will remain popular in some circles for decades to come) but it's pretty obvious by this point that its the most frequently dumped cartridge in both LE and consumers. There's a lot of good reasons for that (which we've already covered ad nauseam).
I never disagreed with any of that.
That's really useful, who is going to carry a 6" handgun on duty?
That said I understand why they did testing at that level.Not disputing any of that.
....keep spinning the wheel.
There's nothing "incorrect" about it. I'm not talking about the gunwriter bullshit about "limp wristed fags at the FBI" or anything like that. I'm not saying that they needed to keep using full power 10mm ammo. My point is that the industry was willing to f*** up an entire cartridge/platform to get only what they wanted. That was the end result- and that's incontrovertible fact. No amount of "appeal to authority" reasoning is going to ever change that. FBI testing protocol does not magically legitimize the cartridge. In truth, the end outcome here was not necessarily the FBI's fault, either, but rather the industry wanted to make a quick buck off of their testing, because they found a way to leverage existing designs (basically by modifying 9mm handgun designs to take .40) , so they could sell a whole bunch of new guns, to both the FBI (and a ton of other fed agencies) and then a ton more to the thousands of agencies that read FBI testing as gospel. In a way the industry foisted the .40, with FBI FTU/Quantico gospel unintentionally anointing it, all because of a perceived deficiency in performance from existing platforms. It was much easier for the industry to do this by creating .40.
I will give them some credit, from a business perspective it is absolute marketing/hype/manufacturing genius. And far worse things could have happened...
-Mike
Glockster30
NES Member
Nope, but believe that if you want. My sidebar about the crapper/CDNN is referring to the mass exodus of .40 S&W handguns from law enforcement starting in the 2000s. Once more players started studying wound ballistics and other factors, and other guns got introduced, it started to fade in popularity to some degree. Not saying everyone dumped it or will dump it (I think it will remain popular in some circles for decades to come) but it's pretty obvious by this point that its the most frequently dumped cartridge in both LE and consumers. There's a lot of good reasons for that (which we've already covered ad nauseam).
I never disagreed with any of that.
That's really useful, who is going to carry a 6" handgun on duty?
Not disputing any of that.
....keep spinning the wheel.
There's nothing "incorrect" about it. I'm not talking about the gunwriter bullshit about "limp wristed fags at the FBI" or anything like that. I'm not saying that they needed to keep using full power 10mm ammo. My point is that the industry was willing to f*** up an entire cartridge/platform to get only what they wanted. That was the end result- and that's incontrovertible fact. No amount of "appeal to authority" reasoning is going to ever change that. FBI testing protocol does not magically legitimize the cartridge. In truth, the end outcome here was not necessarily the FBI's fault, either, but rather the industry wanted to make a quick buck off of their testing, because they found a way to leverage existing designs (basically by modifying 9mm handgun designs to take .40) , so they could sell a whole bunch of new guns, to both the FBI (and a ton of other fed agencies) and then a ton more to the thousands of agencies that read FBI testing as gospel. In a way the industry foisted the .40, with FBI FTU/Quantico gospel unintentionally anointing it, all because of a perceived deficiency in performance from existing platforms. It was much easier for the industry to do this by creating .40.
I will give them some credit, from a business perspective it is absolute marketing/hype/manufacturing genius. And far worse things could have happened...
-Mike
Ok, Mike, we'll go with your original assessment that the FBI intentionally dumbed down the 10mm and/or hacked up the round to get the .40S&W, although the real facts suggest otherwise. Nothing like keeping a good fable going on a gun forum, even when the facts slap you upside the head. IIRC, didn't you once work as a gun store employee? In the meantime, I'll keep spinning the real facts. Thanks for playing!
What is non factual about what I said? Enlighten us. There's nothing that isn't factual about a reduced power cartridge being intentionally created as an indirect result of
the testing. Now you're basically just dragging this into semantics.
ETA: I agree what I posted later is SLIGHTLY different from what I originally said, so mea culpa on that.... but it still doesn't change the fact that the sausage making process involved here resulted in the industry creating, what amounted to, a shorter, weaker (in terms of it's full potential) 10mm cartridge to meet the FBIs needs and desires...
-Mike
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Glockster30
NES Member
I thought I was done debating this issue, but for some reason, you cannot let it go. You keep using the phrase "intentionally created" or "intentionally dumbed it down" when that is not how the process worked. Intentionally means deliberately, on purpose. I think that a better word to use is that the process "evolved" into the .40 as a result of the FBI testing. Evolving into something else is quite different than stating it was done intentionally or deliberately, on purpose. If you can't understand that after reading the FBI report, it's my opinion that you are just digging in your heels and find being obstinate about the issue easier than just accepting the FBI facts, that are not my facts. It was a process that evolved along a continuum.
You then transitioned into how shitty the .40 was/is and most LE agencies were dumping it for the 9mm. Would it shock you to learn that as of just one year ago, 6 of the 10 largest state/local LE agencies in the US either still issue the .40 and/or give their officers options to carry a firearm in a variety of calibers, including the .40? Or, that some agencies dropped the 9mm and .40 in favor of the .45? Or, are these other facts that I am spinning? One or two of them even allow the carry of the .380 (must be some real pussies in those agencies).
Police Sidearms: The Handguns of America's 10 Largest Departments
Glockster30
NES Member
You're so right. After testing showed the full power loads had poor performance, someone woke up the next morning and deliberately on purpose said, hey, we need to downsize the case so that it will fit in a 9mm sized gun. Go troll somewhere else.
Because your position is silly and you keep winding yourself into an extension cord mess over semantics that only you care about.
It's a distinction without a difference. This isn't like a legal case where fully understanding the origins of a case, and viewing it through that lens, is utterly necessary for understanding the application of lor something. It's a lot simpler than that. It was a technical goal, that got sort of perverted by the industry in the name of profit.
In the end a decision was made to make something a certain way. That's pretty "intentional".
I perfectly understand why they reached the conclusions they did. That still doesn't magically legitimize the industry's creation of .40 S&W.
It doesn't matter how it developed. I don't care if it took them 5 years and a billion dollars to say ".40 is da best for us". That still doesn't make it some kind of earth shattering idea. (As a side note, look at something like the Airbus 380. That's a triumph of engineering, and also, at the same time, kinda f***ing stupid. Although .40 S&W isn't nearly that dumb. ) And again, I understand the FBIs motives, but also, the industry is more responsible for the abomination than anything else. Nobody was forward thinking enough to suggest that "well, maybe we can just make more/better 10mm Handguns and the FBI should just keep running 10mm Lite". That would make too much sense (eg, advocacy for a handgun platform that could be used for many purposes with many different types of ammunition to meet different needs, both present and future) and the temptation of profit was too great.
I never said that, I said that .40 was being dumped as a generality, with many going to 9mm and .45, not necessarily in that "order". Perhaps I wasn't clear enough about that.
See above. The fact still remains tons have dumped .40. Just because some big players kept it, doesn't mean that others aren't dumping it. If anything it makes more sense that large agencies would keep .40 because of institutional sloth, and the side-costs of them changing calibers is far greater than a small local PD with a few dozen guys.
That's a pretty poor citation. I went down the list and only about half are .40 only. Shocking, a bunch of big PDs still have .40s. I never said that they didn't.
This isn't about whether or not it's a pussy cartridge, or not, or any of that. I get the FBIs reasoning for their spec. I'm not disputing that, particularly given what they
had to work with at the time. I just find amusement in you guys getting butthurt whenever someone brings up fact that the origins of the cartridge are s circus-like, to put it mildly, and
that it ultimately ended up being a shitty version of an existing cartridge. It's not our fault you can't handle the truth. And in the lens of hindsight it looks even worse, given that .40 was largely a "gun based
solution to what was actually an ammunition problem" particularly in the mid 90s, after companies like Speer released the GDHP, and other manufacturers like Federal started to produce radically better ammunition.
In the lens of hindsight one could argue that, if more energy was put into researching bullets and wound ballistics, that the .40 would not have ever needed to be created to begin with. In the FBI's defense
though, at the time, the science of a lot of that sucked until we were well out of the 80s and there was a lot of industry sloth. A lot of products were sold on marketing bullshit and not science, and some still
exist to this day... EG, things like glaser safety slugs, about half of CorBon's product line, etc. .40 S&W was created in an industry fog of tornado like swirling bullshit.
Also let me qualify one thing here- if someone wants to use it, so be it. If I owned a gun shop would I sell .40 S&W handguns? Yeah, of course I would. Why the f*** not? Some people want it, and it
does the job. I would stock tons of ammo for it, too. The "installed base" is huge. I would gladly sell one to anyone that wanted one. On the other hand- Would I ever tell a noob, asking for advice, given no serious resource limitations, that it was a good idea? Outside of special circumstances, f*** no!
Would I carry .40 if I needed to? Of course I would. I did for many years, as a matter of fact, a USP Compact .40 and a P2000 LEM usually got picked vs other stuff. It works. It stops bad guys if you shoot them enough times with it. I mostly dumped .40 because I found that the way other cartridges worked was better for me, this became apparent when I first had some access to a shot timer. Then it dawned on me that there is no great upsell proposition with a .40, outside of perhaps the MA based capacity crybaby prosecutorial fear argument where people kvetch, whine, snort and blare about getting an extra 1-2 rounds in a mag (or not). (I personally don't get invested in that argument anymore, I'm at the point where capacity is not an overarching reason to pick a caliber unless a choice is going to limit me to some stupid small number of shots, but as a practical matter, most guns are starting at least with 8...).40 Quickly became a matter of:
At one time I had 26 handguns. About 4 or 5 of them at the time were .40s. They started to collect dust in the safe. I didn't shoot them recreationally because the caliber is overkill for
plates and insufficient for full table bowling pin matches. For defense the recoil management and speed were often iffy compared to even +P+ 9mm and some.45 ACP platforms I have. Why would
I want to keep putting practice effort into something I shoot slower? When I needed money, they were the first to go, and I didn't feel a tinge of regret, maybe a little for the USP .40 full, but
that's about it. (as IMHO it was a properly designed handgun for .40 S&W, albeit huge). Years later, I got a G22 Gen4 on a lark about a year or so after it came out. I took it out a few times, it ran well enough, but while constantly fighting to keep my support grip on the thing (and not having to do this even with other more powerful guns, like my G30SF at the time ) I realized the futility of the whole idea and sold it about 2 months
later. The only way I'd ever go back to .40 in a "serious" way is if I wanted to get into USPSA Limited or similar kind of competition, where the allure of cheap reloads, and cheap, disposable
brass, and great accuracy (in some guns) is undeniable.
None of this changes the fact that I still think the origins/genesis of the cartridge are kinda f***ing stupid. Nothing will ever change that in my mind. . It reminds me of a Smart Car or something like that, although
that's probably a little harsh. The whole thing just reeks of intentional mediocrity, one that the juice is often not worth the squeeze on. .40 doesn't have a "big win" on the back end in common use.
Food for thought- go take or just look at online, serious handgun training courses. I would bet that most of the trainers are running 9mm's- There's a good reason for this, that you don't find out until you're pushed a little in training. Some of it is ammo cost, sure, but the timer speaks volumes at the end. Carrying .40 to me is like using a leather holster. Well not quite that bad, but still.
I also am older than like, 5, so I don't particularly care if someone insults a caliber or a gun I carry. This is last post in the thread for me, as I don't wish to trigger anyone any further.
I've offended enough sensibilities, apparently. -Mike
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