The Liberty Training Rifle

[Almostelmo]

I will admit up front to being a borderline hater of the 10/22...especially as a "Liberty Rifle" Sights suck Trigger sucks Stock sucks First two need to be addressed before the rifle becomes even marginally usable.....and even after thats all done its not a particularly accurate rifle without dumping a pile of money into it. and even when done the rifle has a crappy sight picture/function even with tech sights and a marginal trigger/etc Whats the point of "training" with a rifle thats nothing like what you would ACTUALLY use in the event of a zombie invasion of your neighborhood? Never could understand why folks would dick around with a 10/22 when for 150-200 bucks you could use your pre-existing AR

I'd rather spend a couple hundred bucks on a dedicated .22 gun than spend a couple hundred bucks introducing a conversion kit into my AR.

They both have a purpose and they both do it well. And not everyone has an AR. I think you're missing the point. Hate on 10/22's all you want but a liberty training rifle has nothing to do with what kind of gun you have. I'm guessing there's plenty of people that could shoot rifleman without any mods on a 10/22.

 

[exo]

Try shooting one of those CMMG conversion kits in a 1:7 or 1:9 barrel beyond 50 yards and let me know what you think of the accuracy

 

[snd1t]

Try shooting one of those CMMG conversion kits in a 1:7 or 1:9 barrel beyond 50 yards and let me know what you think of the accuracy

Never been an issue

Ed, I agree. a dedicated 22 upper is the best solution but most of the uppers I've seen are ~500 bucks......actually its about on par with a 10/22 new (~250) plus 100 for upgraded sights plus a trigger job for another 150.......

The flip side is that the CMMG 22lr kits are only ~200

 

[Coyote33]

Never been an issue

Ed, I agree. a dedicated 22 upper is the best solution but most of the uppers I've seen are ~500 bucks......actually its about on par with a 10/22 new (~250) plus 100 for upgraded sights plus a trigger job for another 150.......

The flip side is that the CMMG 22lr kits are only ~200

Well, you could also get a Marlin .22 for like $159 which is PLENTY accurate and reliable. And if you want to put the lipstick on, it can also do a scope or even the Tech Sights.

 

[NH-GP100]

Appleseeds is about TRAINING, *NOT* equipment.

I was at one where someone took a patch with a new out of the box 10/22 takedown - stone stock.

I have taken the patch repeatedly with a stock Ruger American Rimfire - the first time with a $15 used Simmons 4x scope out of the used scope case at Rileys (old eyes).

If you have issues with the setup on a stock 10/22 you can spend $50 on parts from Power Custom or (for a bit more) Volquatsen to deal with the trigger and drop in an auto bolt release and pick up a used scope for cheap if you don't like the stock sights (which do suck...) and for well under $400 have an LTR that is just fine. Look around a bit and you can pick up the sling and 3 more mags cheap and maybe STILL be under $400.

As for "training for SHTF", well, you never know what you may be forced to use, your $1500 Lego rifle may lock up because you can't find any of the special lube it needs, be stolen by zombie outlaw bikers, or lost in a tragic boating accident. Having proper rifleman skills may make all the difference in the world.

 

[MetalgodZ]

A lot of those conversions don't hold up well to the volume of ammunition used at an Appleseed.

Try shooting one of those CMMG conversion kits in a 1:7 or 1:9 barrel beyond 50 yards and let me know what you think of the accuracy

My DPMS Sportical (16", 1:9, either carbine or mid length gas) has seen use for the past 4-5 years as a loaner, both with and without the Ceiner conversion kit. The dot is a 2MOA dot but it sure looks like 4MOA on the 400yd targets with my terrible eyes.

The rifle has seen probably 5000-7500 rounds of .22LR and 2500+ rounds of .223 AS A LOANER, separate from my shooting. (Yes, really. It's probably getting close to needing a barrel, and the cam pin in the BCG looks awfully sad.) Still holds well enough to shoot a Rifleman score at 25 yards, and can shoot 4" and 6" steel at 100 yards with the conversion kit all day every day. Cycles everything that the Black Dog Machine magazines will hold, including the Aguila Super Sniper 60gr stuff.

The same Ceiner kit on my other upper (18" 1:8, rifle length gas, Primary Arms 1-6x ACSS) shoots BETTER groups with the conversion both at 25 yards and 100 yards. Helpfully, standard bulk HV .22LR is dead on at 100 yards on the 300yd holdover line on the ACSS reticle, and I've shot drills under 25 yards with approximately the same point of impact as .223...so no changing of zero is necessary out to 100 with the conversion.

I'd rather spend a couple hundred bucks on a dedicated .22 gun than spend a couple hundred bucks introducing a conversion kit into my AR.

While I do pretty much constantly worry that I'm going to clog a gas tube, it hasn't happened yet, and I've put a LOT of rounds downrange with a conversion. It's a cheap way to run a rifle with exactly the same ergonomics, trigger, and sighting system as my go-to rifle...Because IT IS my go-to rifle, just with a conversion.

They both have a purpose and they both do it well. And not everyone has an AR. I think you're missing the point. Hate on 10/22's all you want but a liberty training rifle has nothing to do with what kind of gun you have. I'm guessing there's plenty of people that could shoot rifleman without any mods on a 10/22.

There are. Most of the time, people realize how much the stock sights suck and get Tech Sights prior to a subsequent shoot. Other than the Tech Sights, the 10/22 I shot rifleman with is bone stock.

 

[exo]

My DPMS Sportical (16", 1:9, either carbine or mid length gas) has seen use for the past 4-5 years as a loaner, both with and without the Ceiner conversion kit. The dot is a 2MOA dot but it sure looks like 4MOA on the 400yd targets with my terrible eyes.

The rifle has seen probably 5000-7500 rounds of .22LR and 2500+ rounds of .223 AS A LOANER, separate from my shooting. (Yes, really. It's probably getting close to needing a barrel, and the cam pin in the BCG looks awfully sad.) Still holds well enough to shoot a Rifleman score at 25 yards, and can shoot 4" and 6" steel at 100 yards with the conversion kit all day every day. Cycles everything that the Black Dog Machine magazines will hold, including the Aguila Super Sniper 60gr stuff.

The same Ceiner kit on my other upper (18" 1:8, rifle length gas, Primary Arms 1-6x ACSS) shoots BETTER groups with the conversion both at 25 yards and 100 yards. Helpfully, standard bulk HV .22LR is dead on at 100 yards on the 300yd holdover line on the ACSS reticle, and I've shot drills under 25 yards with approximately the same point of impact as .223...so no changing of zero is necessary out to 100 with the conversion.



While I do pretty much constantly worry that I'm going to clog a gas tube, it hasn't happened yet, and I've put a LOT of rounds downrange with a conversion. It's a cheap way to run a rifle with exactly the same ergonomics, trigger, and sighting system as my go-to rifle...Because IT IS my go-to rifle, just with a conversion.


There are. Most of the time, people realize how much the stock sights suck and get Tech Sights prior to a subsequent shoot. Other than the Tech Sights, the 10/22 I shot rifleman with is bone stock.

OK, sounds like those conversion kits may be a viable alternative after all. Thanks for the info.

 

[JackOfAllTrades]

Appleseeds is about TRAINING, *NOT* equipment.

Exactly this.

A stock 10/22 is probably more accurate than 90%+ of the shooters at an Appleseed, and those that would be limited by the equipment should have no problem shooting rifleman with it.

It struck me that part of the point of Appleseed is that the skills you acquire should allow you to shoot accurately with your rifle or any other.

 

[dwarven1]

It struck me that part of the point of Appleseed is that the skills you acquire should allow you to shoot accurately with your rifle or any other.

And one of the skills is sighting in your rifle... and it's a LOT easier to adjust a set of Tech Sights than the buckhorn sights that come on a stock 10/22. Same for using a sling - not sure if they even OFFER a 10/22 with sling studs other than the 50th Anniversary one (designed by an Appleseed Instructor).

The other thing that makes a 10/22 more usable is the auto bolt release, which isn't needed with any .22 rifle I'm aware of - only Bill Ruger designed that abortion of a bolt release that makes you use two hands.

 

[exo]

And one of the skills is sighting in your rifle... and it's a LOT easier to adjust a set of Tech Sights than the buckhorn sights that come on a stock 10/22. Same for using a sling - not sure if they even OFFER a 10/22 with sling studs other than the 50th Anniversary one (designed by an Appleseed Instructor).

The other thing that makes a 10/22 more usable is the auto bolt release, which isn't needed with any .22 rifle I'm aware of - only Bill Ruger designed that abortion of a bolt release that makes you use two hands.

Agree on both points. Thankfully the auto bolt release can be fixed with either a file or dremel (depending on what you have and/or how much time you want to spend). No need to spend $10 on a pre-modified one.

 

[dwarven1]

Thankfully the auto bolt release can be fixed with either a file or dremel (depending on what you have and/or how much time you want to spend). No need to spend $10 on a pre-modified one.

Yes, and I do all mine myself. BUT not everyone is handy with tools, which is why I carry the Volquartsen ones, too.

 

[JayMcB]

Yes, and I do all mine myself. BUT not everyone is handy with tools, which is why I carry the Volquartsen ones, too.

a little polish goes a long, long way on the trigger, too. At least it did on my 1989 version.

The bolt release, sling and sights make it a rifle to be reckoned with.

If you go to an appleseed with an open mind, LISTEN and APPLY what you're being told, it is transformative in your shooting ability.

My kids went from 'on the paper' to just shy of the patch.

Come spring, my daughter will get her patch, since she regualrly shoots AQT's at our gun club at a further distance and qualifies.

 

[Coyote33]

OK, quick questions:
1) Tech Sights vs. Williams peep sights; which is better and why? Do either of them come with fiber optic front sight?
2) Where to buy Tech Sights? Where to buy Williams sights?
3) Sling mounts: I bought what I thought were the right sling and mounts, but now I'm not sure. Can someone help here? Want a picture?
4) For the 10/22, are people getting the carbine or rifle? How do I tell what mine is? How many different versions are there?
5) Overall, how does Savage compare to 10/22 to Marlin to Remington in auto-loader?
6) Same as above, but in bolt action?

 

[northny]

OK, quick questions:
1) Tech Sights vs. Williams peep sights; which is better and why? Do either of them come with fiber optic front sight?
2) Where to buy Tech Sights? Where to buy Williams sights?
3) Sling mounts: I bought what I thought were the right sling and mounts, but now I'm not sure. Can someone help here? Want a picture?
4) For the 10/22, are people getting the carbine or rifle? How do I tell what mine is? How many different versions are there?
5) Overall, how does Savage compare to 10/22 to Marlin to Remington in auto-loader?
6) Same as above, but in bolt action?

A few comments to address few of your questions.
A bolt action will definitely increase the challenge of Appleseed shoot. I'd recommend to stay with semi. Mag fed bolt gun is maybe twice as hard?
For purchasing sling, tech sights, swivels go to Appleseed.org web site. Go to shop section and you will also see pics of what you need.
Accessories / solutions are already worked out for 10/22 and marlin. U can go with Savage or Remington but more on ur own to figure it out. You want mag feed not tube feed. You will need to do quick mag changes
Post pic of what u bought. I've used cotton GI sling from Appleseed and leather 1903 slings. GI sling less expensive and easier to use in my opinion. I just like leather.
I bought 10/22 in carbine. Barrel was fine but stock was to short for my size. Which stock fits u determines what u should buy. I bought used stock of eBay to upgrade

 

[bfm]

Have to admit, I bough Hogue over mold stock and put them on two 10/22 carbines rather than add sling swivels to the existing stocks. I techsighted one and scoped the other. Was very happy with both. Meant to have Dwarven1 help me put on the finger adjustable rear sight knob but never managed to meet up. I did leave him a handful of spare pins for for the job, which I hear he put to good use.

Still have the knob in its bag.

 

[namedpipes]

I have two 10/22 Carbines each with Tech Sights (Amazon was convenient), the Volks bolt release (you want this!), Uncle Mike's sling mounts and more or less generic AR15 sling. They're both reliable, cheap and easy. The tech sights tend to come a little loose because I'm nervous to tighten too much in the tiny aluminum threaded holes... Next time I'll try red locktite.

 

[mac1911]

If you get a 22 with the 3/8 machined groove on top of the receiver the Williams FP-AG with target knobs is great for precision shooting. It comes with a pretty large aperture so you might need to by smaller apertures or adjustable one.
You can also install a front globe sight and may need to get different hieght front sights? I love the match sights. I install them on many of my guns.
Some gun smithing and sight height calculating is needed

the ruger

513t

1903a3 match sight set up

 

[mac1911]

OK, quick questions:
1) Tech Sights vs. Williams peep sights; which is better and why? Do either of them come with fiber optic front sight?
2) Where to buy Tech Sights? Where to buy Williams sights?
3) Sling mounts: I bought what I thought were the right sling and mounts, but now I'm not sure. Can someone help here? Want a picture?
4) For the 10/22, are people getting the carbine or rifle? How do I tell what mine is? How many different versions are there?
5) Overall, how does Savage compare to 10/22 to Marlin to Remington in auto-loader?
6) Same as above, but in bolt action?

1. depending on what you want to do I find the fiber optic front sights take up to much of the target, That's if small groups are your goal.
Tech vs Williams I will take a Williams rear sight with target knobs over a tech sight plus you can get smaller apertures for the williams
2. both are on the net shop around
3. I don't know what your looking for in sling mounts but I use these on almost all my rifles IF you already have sling studs Mil-Spec Swivels : UNCLE MIKES MIL-SPEC SWIVELS | Brownells the usgi web and 1907 leather slings fit and slide nice
4. other than sight radius and a slight velocity gain I don't think you will see a difference 9do they still make a 20" 10/22?)
Any way its a 1.5" difference even between the "carbine" and "compact" 18.5" vs 16.25"? I like the longer barrels and wish KIDD made a 20" just for looks alone
5. Savage,marlin,Rem,Ruger all are running 50 year old designs or older the savage 64 is the only 22lr semi savage has out the savage has that tweener stock imho to big for kids not big enough for adults. I like a full size stock.
6. As for bolt actions I think the Savage are hard to beat until you get past $400+ The mark II FVT is a great apple seed rifle and the mag change will not be to bad. My only personally feelings on it is I wish it had a monte carlo style comb. The drop is just to aggressive for me.
Savage Arms Firearms Mark II FVT

 

[Coyote33]

4. That's all it is? Why don't they have 24 or 26 inch barrels any more?
5. I'd say the stock on this 10/22 is "tweener" as well. Not quite kiddie size, not quite adult. I just chalk it up as their version of "carbine".
6. I wish some of the older ones were still being produced. JC Higgins for Sears makes a nice one for sure. It would be nice to get the blueprints for these and start making them. I bet a LOT of people would snatch them up.

 

[mac1911]

4. That's all it is? Why don't they have 24 or 26 inch barrels any more?
5. I'd say the stock on this 10/22 is "tweener" as well. Not quite kiddie size, not quite adult. I just chalk it up as their version of "carbine".
6. I wish some of the older ones were still being produced. JC Higgins for Sears makes a nice one for sure. It would be nice to get the blueprints for these and start making them. I bet a LOT of people would snatch them up.

You would think but I don't know for sure.
I don't see many people wanting 22_rifles like the rem40,5xx series or win52 . the long 22lr barrels over 20" are from my understanding to increase sight radius like on the old target rifles. I think anchutz is the only 22lr offering barrels more than 20" these days.
Again it all comes down to production cost and what the market will pay. Savage almost has it right companies need to really figure out the stocks. Most suck on most rifles.

As for the 10/22 the one I swore I would not spend money on is waiting for a stock. I'm not happy with what's out there.
I might go with the titan just to get it shooting. I might also order the rear anchor kit and have Greg derr machine the receiver? Might as well jump all the way in
If you want to give match style sights a try you can buy a daisy match sight it will attach to the weaver rail that has the 3/8 and picitanni combo mount. It might shoot high with the factory front sight but that's easy to fix.
Its not the best but unless your shooting a series match it works well enough. Daisy Match Grade Avanti Precision Diopter Sight Reviews - Page 1
Also let's face it most 10/22 shooters don't want a target rifle and shoot from pron sitting and standing. They want quick instant feedback type of shooting like steel plates.

Another advantage to diopter style target sights is vision problems can be less of a issue. Your not trying to focus on a front sight as much your just lining up circles and placing what you shooting at in the middle.which our brain and eyes like to do naturally.

 

[mac1911]

4. That's all it is? Why don't they have 24 or 26 inch barrels any more?
5. I'd say the stock on this 10/22 is "tweener" as well. Not quite kiddie size, not quite adult. I just chalk it up as their version of "carbine".
6. I wish some of the older ones were still being produced. JC Higgins for Sears makes a nice one for sure. It would be nice to get the blueprints for these and start making them. I bet a LOT of people would snatch them up.

So many good old 22s out there for short money it would be hard to sell a new one as good and make money.
I almost picked up a Savage model 19 NRA target rifle for $300 with sights and magazine

 

[dwarven1]

OK, quick questions:
5) Overall, how does Savage compare to 10/22 to Marlin to Remington in auto-loader?

Savage is an excellent rifle with very good triggers. More expensive than the Marlins and the accessories (spare mags, etc) aren't as easy to find and will usually be more expensive. How serious are you about the LTR? How much work do you want to do and how much accessorizing are you going to want to do? Those are all things to think about when you're deciding on which platform to go with.

The tech sights tend to come a little loose because I'm nervous to tighten too much in the tiny aluminum threaded holes... Next time I'll try red locktite.

*Sigh*. Bob, Bob, Bob... what part of "Make sure you use Loc-Tite on the scope mount screws, and definitely on the Tech Sights." did you think Nickel wasn't serious about way back in post #11?

 

[mac1911]

finally done with the ruger and if I get a chance to do a apple seed I will do it with this rifle or maybe my 1942 Remington 513t

I will also run it with the pink rifle I posted earlier.

If anyone is worried about over tightening screws on guns get a torque screwdriver. Also a poor mans way is to grab the allen key buy the bend with just your thumb and index finger pinch the bend, place the short end into the screw and tighten to the point you just hardly need to put anything into it. with Loctite it should hold for a very very long time.
Loctite 222 is the best I have used for small screws its not very strong but will keep screws from coming loose. I big problem with many fasteners is the mix of steel and aluminum. You need the fastners clean of oil to stay tight and aluminum and steel can rot. also some locitite will not work well with aluminum or other metals with out the use of Loctite primer. My dad used liquid Teflon on small screws for many years.
I have found if you tighten the screws evenly with a torgue driver even something as simple as this
Husky 1/4 in. Hex Inch Torque Screw Driver-H4DTRQ - The Home Depot will work. You will find that a lot of times your actually over tightening. Good thing also is you can go and recheck the screws to see if they came loose vs you just applying a tad more to the screw than last time.
If I cant get to a apple seed I will print out the target sheet and run my own

 

[bfm]

*Sigh*. Bob, Bob, Bob... what part of "Make sure you use Loc-Tite on the scope mount screws, and definitely on the Tech Sights." did you think Nickel wasn't serious about way back in post #11?

What was the middle part?

 

[namedpipes]

... *Sigh*. Bob, Bob, Bob... what part of "Make sure you use Loc-Tite on the scope mount screws, and definitely on the Tech Sights." did you think Nickel wasn't serious about way back in post #11?

I'll admit I did not use loc-tite the first time, so that one's on me!

However, I rebuilt that rifle and built a second to take minipipes to an Appleseed just before his journey. I DID use loc-tite - one stayed firm and the other loosened up. I'll redo it again in the spring.

 

[dwarven1]

finally done with the ruger and if I get a chance to do a apple seed I will do it with this rifle or maybe my 1942 Remington 513t

You CAN shoot a Rifleman score with a Remington 513t; I've seen it done. By a guy shooting LEFT-HANDED. His score was somewhere in the 240s.

 

[lupis42]

finally done with the ruger and if I get a chance to do a apple seed I will do it with this rifle or maybe my 1942 Remington 513t
...
If I cant get to a apple seed I will print out the target sheet and run my own

The MA schedule should be up in another week or so, but we've already got the Harvard Winterseed and some Leyden shoots on the calendar. Hope to see you at one.

 

[Rick O'Shea]

Winterseed at Harvard is scheduled for the 18th of Feb schedule | Project Appleseed

 

[DarthRevan]

The MA schedule should be up in another week or so, but we've already got the Harvard Winterseed (2/17) and some Leyden shoots on the calendar. Hope to see you at one.

I’ll be looking to do the Winterseed again. With a proper .22 instead of my MSR this go around.

 

[namedpipes]

I'd try a Winterseed, provided the shooting shed is fully enclosed, heated and has deep pile carpeting.