The US's High Homicide Rate

[MaverickNH]

I often ponder our high homicide rate in the US, most of which is firearms homicide (some 85%), as well as our high incarceration rate. Aside from bad guys shooting bad guys, there seems to be a lot of good guys shooting bad guys left over in the equation which, while "just", is still not "good".

Why we have more bad guys that need shooting - that I don't know. Some have called it a vestige of our brand of free society, but I'm not sure I buy that.

Part of it is the willingness of other societies to tolerate violent crime. Christopher Lockwood, European Editor of The Economist, in a debate with David Kopel, stated: "I'd far rather be burgled nine times over than shot with a semi-automatic pistol brought over-the-counter by an undiagnosed psychopath, or indeed by the family firearm wielded in the course of a domestic argument." http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-dustup23apr23,0,4242688.story You wouldn't have most American's taking that view...

Lockwood suggested a racial bias, as most US homicide victims are black - 3.3 vs 19.7 per 100,000 for whites and blacks, respectively, and 5.5 overall http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-dustup26apr26,0,5618950.story This is borne out by USDOJ statitics, which also show most black homicides are perpetrated by blacks (as are most white homicides perpetrated by whites). http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm The numbers look similar in the UK - although lower in magnitude, most violent crime is perpetrated by blacks against blacks.

US Law Enforcement has to tip-toe around these figures to remain PC, of course, while the UK seems to address things more openly, even if alert to racial bias http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6753695.stm

Having gone to lengths to right the wrongs of post-Civil War Jim Crow laws banning black ownership of firearms, no new laws will disarm criminals, whether black or white. So regardless of the cause, the cure is not gun control. If it's wrapped up in race, poverty, drugs, gangs, etc. - well, I don't see us fixing that up too soon. Not even if the Dems take control of the Presidency and Congress

So I dunno - maybe the cost of lowering a firearms homicide rate of 0.005% several-fold can't be accomplished without gutting what we call freedom in the US - or can't be accomplished at all. Aside from relative comparisons, maybe it's not too high after all.

Unless someone takes my guns away - then I'll be thinking different.

 

[hminsky]

What really irks me is the people who single out "gun deaths", as if they are worse than "knife deaths", or "baseball bat deaths", or "machete deaths".

 

[matt1956]

not to mention the fact that places that have banned guns have no less murder per capita then they did before, the criminals simply found another meanst to their end.

 

[MaverickNH]

What really irks me is the people who single out "gun deaths", as if they are worse than "knife deaths", or "baseball bat deaths", or "machete deaths".

They usually tip their hand when they do so, admitting their irrational bias. When you hate guns, it's an all-consuming emotional response with little logic. The smart ones only control their emotions - I can hardly see where they use any logic beyond distortions of the facts.

 

[matt1956]

What really irks me is the people who single out "gun deaths", as if they are worse than "knife deaths", or "baseball bat deaths", or "machete deaths".

how about just plain motor vehicle deaths.

last time i checked (ken corrected), but motor vehicle deaths where more then 2 times higher then firearm deaths.

(Thanks Ken, I copy/pasted your numbers to here if you don't mind) 2005;

Motor Vehicle Accidents: 45,343

Homicide: 12,352
Legal Intervention: 330
Suicide: 17,002
Accidental: 789
Undetermined Intent: 221
Total: 30,694

 

[springer]

I am pissed the incarceration rate is so low.

 

[KMaurer]

Actual 2005 deaths involving firearms (from US Centers for Disease Control):

Homicide: 12,352
Legal Intervention: 330
Suicide: 17,002
Accidental: 789
Undetermined Intent: 221
Total: 30,694

For Comparison:

Adverse Effects of Medical Care: 2,309
Residential Fires: 2,816
Accidental Drownings: 3,582
Accidental Suffocation: 5,900
Accidental Falls: 19,656
Accidental Poisoning: 23,618
Motor Vehicle Accidents: 45,343

Ken

 

[clinotus]

I often ponder our high homicide rate in the US, most of which is firearms homicide (some 85%), as well as our high incarceration rate. Aside from bad guys shooting bad guys, there seems to be a lot of good guys shooting bad guys left over in the equation which, while "just", is still not "good".

Any shooting in defense of life is a good shot. Sure you can look at the numbers and call it 'murder' instead, but that would be argumentatively dishonest.

Having gone to lengths to right the wrongs of post-Civil War Jim Crow laws banning black ownership of firearms, no new laws will disarm criminals, whether black or white. So regardless of the cause, the cure is not gun control. If it's wrapped up in race, poverty, drugs, gangs, etc. - well, I don't see us fixing that up too soon. Not even if the Dems take control of the Presidency and Congress

So I dunno - maybe the cost of lowering a firearms homicide rate of 0.005% several-fold can't be accomplished without gutting what we call freedom in the US - or can't be accomplished at all...

It cannot and here is your answer:

Why we have more bad guys that need shooting - that I don't know. Some have called it a vestige of our brand of free society, but I'm not sure I buy that.

In a free society where people can do as they choose within a loosely based system of laws...this is a relative outcome as as in any large society there will exist criminals or those who would take by force from others, or those who would kill for kicks. The firearm or the knife doesnt really come into the equation, its just a tool for the act. Fact is that there have always been bad people and even badder people than them which is why we have 'police' (and armies).

 

[dsm]

Actual 2005 deaths ...

Adverse Effects of Medical Care: 2,309

Wow do I not believe this number. I've seen it placed as high as 750,000.

Probably the reality is somewhere between, but I bet it's still the leading cause of death, period.

 

[KMaurer]

Wow do I not believe this number. I've seen it placed as high as 750,000.

Probably the reality is somewhere between, but I bet it's still the leading cause of death, period.

These are official causes listed on the death certificates. I'd suspect that most of those little mistakes end up being attributed to something else, particularly since it's the ones behind the "oops" and their colleagues who fill out the certificates. While there undoubtedly been numerous such analyses, I seem to recall a Harvard Medical School study several years ago that put the number around 150K.

Ken

 

[Chris]

Lets also note that violent crime in the US WITHOUT firearms is higher than in many other countries. If it was just the guns, what accounts for that?

 

[Gabe]

The War on Drugs.

 

[av8r]

These are official causes listed on the death certificates. I'd suspect that most of those little mistakes end up being attributed to something else, particularly since it's the ones behind the "oops" and their colleagues who fill out the certificates. While there undoubtedly been numerous such analyses, I seem to recall a Harvard Medical School study several years ago that put the number around 150K.

Ken

Healthgrades has conducted studies on these numbers several times.

Here is an excerpt from their 2006 report:

In our study, we found:

• Approximately 1.24 million total patient safety incidents occurred in almost 40 million
hospitalizations in the Medicare population. These incidents were associated with $9.3 billion of
excess cost during 2002 through 2004. For the second year in a row, patient safety incidents have
increased—up from 1.14 and 1.18 million reported in HealthGrades’ First and Second Annual Patient
Safety in American Hospitals studies, respectively.

• Of the 304,702 deaths that occurred among patients who developed one or more patient safety
incidents, 250,246 were potentially preventable.

• Medicare beneficiaries that developed one or more patient safety incidents had a one-in-four
chance of dying during the hospitalization during 2002-2004. This rate remains unchanged since
our first study released July 2003.

• There were wide, highly significant gaps in individual PSI and overall performance between the
Distinguished Hospitals for Patient Safety™ and the bottom ranked hospitals.

• Medicare patients in the Distinguished Hospitals for Patient Safety had, on average, an almost
50-percent lower occurrence of experiencing one or more PSIs compared to patients at the
bottom ranked hospitals. This finding was consistent across all 13 PSIs studied.

• If all hospitals performed at the level of Distinguished Hospitals for Patient Safety, approximately
280,134 patient safety incidents and 44,153 Medicare deaths could have been avoided while
saving U.S. $2.45 billion during 2002-2004.

Keep in mind these figures are only for those in the Medicare system who were treated in hospitals. In 2005 Medicare recipients made up approximately 16% of the total population.

 

[dsm]

Healthgrades has conducted studies on these numbers several times.

Here is an excerpt from their 2006 report:

[Interesting stuff]

Thanks for sharing that.

As someone else was discussing here recently, doctors have a lot of nerve bitching about firearm injury and death rates given the safety record of their "product". Both take lives, both save lives. In the end, I believe both net a positive benefit to society.

 

[Jrob24]

Although I don't have the data to prove it, I suspect we have a lot more people who are part of criminal subcultures than Europe.

 

[Will Brink]

What really irks me is the people who single out "gun deaths", as if they are worse than "knife deaths", or "baseball bat deaths", or "machete deaths".

My favorite is car deaths, which exceed gun deaths. The response to that fact by antis is as predictable as the tides, "but guns are made for killing people cars are not." And why does that matter again when you are dead?

 

[Gabe]

My favorite is car deaths, which exceed gun deaths. The response to that fact by antis is as predictable as the tides, "but guns are made for killing people cars are not." And why does that matter again when you are dead?

You can extend this argument even more. Simplistically, guns are made for killing, and cars are not. Of the 30,000 fatalities attributed to firearms, only about 800 were accidental deaths - a bit over 2.5%. Now consider the 45,000 automobile fatalities. I would hazard a guess that not even 2.5% of those were intentional (the balance being accidental), but let's say it is that figure.

So, accidental fatalities data (approximations):

• Guns -------- 800
• Cars ----- 44,000

Cars cause over 5000% more accidental deaths than guns! Now, which is more dangerous?

 

[Will Brink]

You can extend this argument even more. Simplistically, guns are made for killing, and cars are not. Of the 30,000 fatalities attributed to firearms, only about 800 were accidental deaths - a bit over 2.5%. Now consider the 45,000 automobile fatalities. I would hazard a guess that not even 2.5% of those were intentional (the balance being accidental), but let's say it is that figure.

So, accidental fatalities data (approximations):

• Guns -------- 800
• Cars ----- 44,000

Cars cause over 5000% more accidental deaths than guns! Now, which is more dangerous?

Ah, but you know where that's going. All those car deaths are accidents, but the gun deaths are intentional! That's worse! And this matters when you are dead again why? Such is the psysche of the anti gun types: focus on tools vs intent to ban guns, focus on intent, when other tools (cars ) are found to be more dangerous, and back peddle hard when facts and data get in the way of your position, which neither data, facts, nor history supports.

 

[KMaurer]

There was an extremely interesting study in the NEJM back in 1988 that compared homicide rates for Seattle with the rates for Vancouver BC just to the north. It was done by Kellerman and a few other hoplophobes, and purported to demonstrate that the easier legal access to firearms in Washington State resulted in a murder rate 4.5-5 times than in Vancouver. In comparing the populations of the two areas, they noted that the percentage of minority racial/ethnic groups was about the same in both areas. So far, so good. However, when some less agenda-driven researchers went back and looked at the data, they noted that while the total percentage of minorities was similar, the composition was markedly different. "Minorities" in Seattle were predominately Black and Hispanic, while those in Vancouver were mostly Asian and Native American. Looking at the murder rates for racial/ethnic groups separately, they found that, despite much stricter gun-control laws in Canada, the murder rates for Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians and Native Americans were each the same or slightly higher in Vancouver than in Seattle; the higher murder rate in Seattle could be explained entirely by the higher Black and Hispanic percentages in the population.

It would be just as much a mistake to attribute the higher rates of violent crime in the US to racial and ethnic differences as it would be to attribute them to the Second Amendment. The fact is that there are fairly small, easily identifiable socio-economic sub-groups that tend to be larger within the Black and Hispanic populations than with the White, Asian and Native American populations, that account for the overwhelming majority of violent crime in America. With the exception of these small groups, the rate of violent crime is the same or somewhat lower in America than in Canada or most other countries. All too nuanced and complicated, so (since it wouldn't be PC to blame it on Blacks or Hispanics) let's just blame it all on the guns.

Ken

 

[MaverickNH]

All too nuanced and complicated, so (since it wouldn't be PC to blame it on Blacks or Hispanics) let's just blame it all on the guns. Ken

I probably read it here somewhere, but I was amused by the observation that Political Correctness was akin to trying to pick up a turd from the clean end.

A good example from the junk-science wars - thanks.

 

[WILDCATT]

homicide

Britian is going thru a vast increase in crime since the colonies benifited from emigration.most influx brought people of a violent character as we are getting.
also the breakdown of the family is contributing.----