Parker Schreiber
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I have a fairly boring answer. Improvements in 9mm self-defense rounds left the .40 without enough of an advantage to warrant the increased costs. (BC -- Before Covid).
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Why is the .40 caliber losing popularity?
- Thread starter Sterg
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Like the M&Pee Shield in any caliber. LOL.“Too snappy”
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
As an avid HP fanboy, that's a damn good price.
On the other hand, if the Nazis wanted more "power" than 9mm, they would have designed a cartridge like the FOTAY. But, THEY DIDN'T.
Dead.
Bro, I have the best Christmas present for u.
A BEAUTIFUL M&PEE T-50 STAPLE GUN TRIGGER IN FOTAY-SMITH & WESSSSSON
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N68h5mvyOjo
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More than a few put their Limited .40s down when Production became a thing...and then Carry Optics came along.....
I think I picked up my used 229 in 40 here on NES for 700. It’s a great platform I’ve got the 357 sig barrel for it as well. if you are on the fence at all go for it. When times are good ,9mm comes back, all you need is a slide and 9mm barrel to change. But you probably won’t, once you go forty in a full size gun you save the 9 for deep concealment.
The P229 was 800 with one magazine so it’s a no. I’m not ruling out .40, just not now. I am a big fan of Sig’s though. I didn’t think I would start another caliber war, but then this is NES. Never fails to satisfy. I love it!
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Quite_Exasperated
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Anyone who couldn’t qualify with the 40 and had to ride the short bus to the range got the 9, oh and some of the chicks got the 9 too..
DeadEyeDan
NES Member
This is all so very silly... I never got a .40 mostly because of the cost of ammo verses 9mm. And if I was going to buy more expensive ammo and reduced mag capacity why not go for the for the full power 10mm? Hence I own 0x .40, 5x 9mm and 1x 10mm... also have a few other handguns 1x .17, 7x .22, 1x .22 mag, 1x .223, 1x .308 win, 3x .25, 1x 5.7x28, 1x .30 Carbine, 1x 7.62x25, 1x 7.62x39, 2x .380, 2x .357 mag, 2x .44 mag, 2x .45 ACP, 4x .45 LC, 1x .454, 1x .50 AE in Handguns... I might have miss one or two... but no .32, .357 Sig, or .40... Just remembered a 9mm Kahr K9... mind is going fast... can’t even remember what guns I have...
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I was next to a guy shooting a .40 at Maspenock a few years back. I was standing there shooting and he shows up and started blasting away after he set up. I thought my eardrum was going to tear. Then I got pelted with shells. One of the shells went between my toes,(I was wearing sandals), that shell burned the hell out of my foot. Love it. I’m still a fan of the 9 but the .40 seems like it would be a fun round to shoot. Thinking it’s less popular may be obtainable during hoarding too. Although that’s one of the reasons I got the .32 was for availability and you can’t find it now. I do know a place that stock Gold Dots though. Wait, did I mention .32 in this thread? I meant .320.
Just read this after I posted. I am happy with my 2 .9’s. I should just jump to a 1911. I think I can just get a barrel conversion for my Beretta 92 if need be. What do you have for .25’s. I really like my .32 Seecamp.
Parker Schreiber
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That's certainly true, but now many people and police agencies included, now feel that a 9mm suffices whereas after the Miami shootout (rightly or wrongly) they did not. For those people looking for a more powerful round, they are at least equally likely to step up to 10mm or .45 ACP than the smallish boost they get from .40.
As evidence of how thinking changed, here is the post Miami shootout analysis done by the FBI in 1988, concluding that the ammunition of the time (with one exception) didn't provide sufficient penetration:
But even then, the report noted: "The choice between 9mm and .45 ultimately becomes one of weapon type and capacity, officer confidence and perception of weapon adequacy, and training and policy matters unrelated to ammunition effectiveness. Provided the 9mm subsonic round is used, there is no clear difference between the two calibers."
Fast forward to 2014, when the FBI decided to go back to 9mm. Here's that analysis:
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I'll let others with more expertise address whether 9mm benefitted more from the improvements than other calibers, but I feel my boring answer is sufficient to explain .40's loss of market share.
DeadEyeDan
NES Member
Browning Baby, Bauer Baby Clone, Beretta Jetfire.
Lol, most of the differences are marginal. You can go back to early 2000s and easily find great ammo that existed in 9, .40, and .45 - the problem was going back into the 90s
even that handgun wound ballistics was not well understood as it is now. The entire .40 thing was a phantasm based on a perceived problem that existed and .40 was the "solution"
but it was soon exposed over the years via science and testing that .40 was basically a ham fisted solution to a misunderstood problem. Numerous LE "shoot failures" contributed to
this miasma of fart gas. People started asking good questions but only answering them with half assed solutions, and the industry was eager to please in terms of selling something that
there was a perceived need for.
Is it still a useful self defense caliber? Sure. But that doesn't stop it from being inherently 'tarded. I had a whole harem of .40 S&W handguns, and even
carried them. (2 x P229, 1 x USPc, 1 x USP full, 1 x P2000 LEM, G22Gen4).... Now all gone, and frankly the only one I sort of miss is the USP, because it was more or less designed
around the cartridge, same for the P229s ) There's no point in going back though, for most people. Even the one solid argument that remains "bweah buht I can get ammoz and cheapah used guns" is rapidly diminished. It had a lot of merit years ago, but not so much now. The post sandy-hook crowd ruined most of that.
I would be surprised if there is that much .40 in the channel, hell target sports has been completely blown out.... if there is still stuff around, its hidden in corners of the market. .40 fans
better get their crap yesterday, frankly, if they're leaning on that yarn... because it's not going to be long before that stuff is overpriced, too.
Basically this is .40 S&W after waking up in mid 2000s or so.... one day, this basically happened.... people need to just accept this reality....
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A huge selling point for the PDs was that the fotay and 9 used the same frame size.
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I have always wanted a 7-08 or .308 Wichita. Haven't gotten one yet. Pics of your .308 please.
A couple points about the .40. Ayoob started to call it the .40 Short & Weak back when it came out. He has since changed his mind and please don't bad mouth Ayoob... like talking smack about Richard Petty, just cause they are old doesn't diminish their accomplishments (although Dale Earnhardt was the King in my mind). Also, DHS bought about five billion rounds of fortay a few years back...
allen-1
NES Member
1986 FBI Miami shootout - Wikipedia
An Official Journal Of The NRA | 9mm Resurgence: Why the FBI & Police Went Back
Think today’s 9mm doesn’t possess sufficient terminal performance for use by the FBI, law enforcement and citizens for personal defense? Guess again.
1986 Miami Shootout: The Aftermath
The infamous 1986 Miami Shootout forever changed law enforcement training, equipment and tactics. Learn more about this watershed event.
gundigest.com
Shootout in Miami
Read: Shootout in Miami from Amy Bushatz on June 21, 2019 for Recoil.
April 11, 1986: FBI Miami Shootout Forces Changes in Police Firepower - History and Headlines
On April 11, 1986, a tragic shootout between 8 FBI agents and 2 bank robbers in Miami, Florida, resulted in the deaths of 2 agents and both suspects.
www.historyandheadlines.com
The Reasons Why FBI Went Back to 9mm
The FBI has selected Glock Gen 5 handguns in 9mm as their service weapon. There has been much speculation about the reasons for their caliber change.
sofrep.com
FBI Going Back to 9mm Ammunition
The Federal Bureau of Investigation is returning to the ammunition caliber it labeled ineffective and blamed for the deaths of two of its agents during a 1986 shootout in Miami — the 9mm jacketed hollow-point luger.
www.policemag.com
DeadEyeDan
NES Member
I have always wanted a 7-08 or .308 Wichita. Haven't gotten one yet. Pics of your .308 please.
A couple points about the .40. Ayoob started to call it the .40 Short & Weak back when it came out. He has since changed his mind and please don't bad mouth Ayoob... like talking smack about Richard Petty, just cause they are old doesn't diminish their accomplishments (although Dale Earnhardt was the King in my mind). Also, DHS bought about five billion rounds of fortay a few years back...
The .308 is a IMI/Magnum Research Lone Eagle single shot pistol... it has a rotating breach, appropriate for a “Hand Cannon”, unfortunately no easy way to take a photo since it is part of my out of state collection along with the AR and AK pistols, the FN-57 , Glock 34 and bunch of others... that are illegal to bring to MA or the mags I have for them are illegal... or I just don’t have the space...
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have a kahr and glock in 40 and am a big fan of the 10 mm. in ma. would have to build a whole new rifle from an 80% receiver to have one in the ar platform that takes glock mags . i built a 40 cal glock mag stern conversion using a preban 98 do what you want with lower and even put an ar sylvan arms folding stock on it. the 40 in a rifle equals lower level 10 mm ballistics and buffalo bore makes a 40 that is equal to it.
fencer
NES Member
Said no straight guy ever,
fencer
NES Member
40 has it's place. Those that say 9mm is just as effective, I say have never shot plates or pins with the 2 on the same day.
40 hits harder. Period. You can see it in solid targets.
40 recoil is so close to 45 that I can't tell the difference. If 40 is to much then 45 is also to much for you.
My favorite caliber is 45 but most days I carry a 9mm. 40 and 45 are not very well suited for compact and sub compact guns. Recoil doesn't bother me, but follow up shots are quicker in 9mm with a sub compact or micro pistol.
Different tools for different jobs. It's why they make hammers of varying size. Cobblers don't use 20 oz framing hammers on shoes.
40 hits harder. Period. You can see it in solid targets.
40 recoil is so close to 45 that I can't tell the difference. If 40 is to much then 45 is also to much for you.
My favorite caliber is 45 but most days I carry a 9mm. 40 and 45 are not very well suited for compact and sub compact guns. Recoil doesn't bother me, but follow up shots are quicker in 9mm with a sub compact or micro pistol.
Different tools for different jobs. It's why they make hammers of varying size. Cobblers don't use 20 oz framing hammers on shoes.
I love these threads.
EddieZoom
NES Member
The 229 is great in 40/357sig. Either of those calibers in lighter polymer guns is where the "too much recoil" argument comes into play.
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