You need more gun

sevenMMmag said:
Speer Gold Dot 135gr 38spl + P Short Barrel


not too hard to find. One of the few hollow points that both expand and penetrate deeply enough out of a short 2" barrel. I usually get mine at Riley's in the 50round LEO boxes.
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This or Corbon DPX.
 
sevenMMmag said:
I'm not even talking about bullseye accuracy. J-frames have excellent instrinsic accuracy at long range. Shoot it from vice and you'll see.

I'm talking about things like landing accurate hits really fast while on the move. YOu know, things that actually matter in a self defense shooting. With only 5 rounds on board, minimal sights, and a tiny grip, you better practice more with it.

I don't rely on the "average self defense distance" excuse. It's a cop-out that people use in order to keep practicing what they are good at and not practice what they suck at (aka they never improve their skills). Most people don't even know how bad they are.


There are a couple of big advantages that j-frames have over semi-autos (conceability and entangled situations). BUt also some glaring disadvantages (grip, sights, onboard ammo, reload time, trigger). Like I said, when I carry my j-frame, I don't kid myself into thinking it's as forgiving as a semi-auto in a straight up gunfight. I also do comparatively far more dry firing, dry manipulations, and live range time with my j-frame than any other of my guns in order to maintain a similar level of skill as with my semi-auto carry gun.
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I don't disagree, but the man who started this thread ask if a j frame was enough gun. The short answer to that is yes. Would more gun be better? Sure. I'd rather have my Glock 22 and 2 mags, than my 638 if I had to defend myself. Of course, an AR would be much preferred to that, but life is full of compromises. If a j-frame fits your lifestyle, it's a good option. Maybe not half as a good as a Glock 22, but 1000 times better nothing.
 
Philly3458 said:
I would like to get other views in this. For 53 years of my life I did not carry a gun and fortunately never was in a situation that required one. A little over 2 years ago I decided to get my license and begin to carry. I chose a J frame due to light weight and concealability. I figured if ever in a serious jam I would have a reasonable chance to get out alive. As I have shared this many have suggested that its not enough gun, the caliber is weak, reloads are slow, etc, etc, etc. They say you need at least a 9mm, at least one extra mag(many indicate 2), 10 + 1 in the pistol and of course dress around all that.

I say phewy, what do you say?
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Your reasoning is sound. And like the old saying, a J frame in your pocket is better than the S&W 500 locked up at home. That having been said, there are 9mm's on the market that are as light or lighter than a J frame as well as smaller in size and much more accurate. The Ruger LCp and Kahr PM9 both come to mind. But at the end of the day, as long as you are comfortable with it, who cares what others think?

I personally want to carry a 45 whenever I can. Sure, a red laser dot on a target will let them know they are potentially in trouble, but staring down the barrel of a 1911 with a barrel that looks big enough that a freakin bear could hibernate it, will make the target shit his pants. And I am well aware of all the "accuracy is king" and ballistic gel blah blah blah, the fact is 45 acp stops fights. Shoot a guy in the arm with a 32 and he will need a couple of stitches. Shoot him in the arm with a 45 acp and his wife is opening the pickle jars for the rest of his life.

But really, just practice with what you carry.
 
Many forget the simplicity of the j-frame. Pull it out of your pocket/holster, point, and pull the trigger. No fumbling with safeties or slides. Point it, and shoot.

Then pull the trigger again, if needed. Goes bang every time!
 
drgrant said:
Yeah, because it's sound to judge 9mm against a (extremely jacked/bad-ass) guy wielding a rifle while shooting at him with one of the top 10 worst 9mm defense loads ever manufactured. [thinking] Even at that time 9mm ball would have been a better choice vs win silvertip.

-Mike
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What is your point? I decided that a 9mm is not enough firepower for me, and guess what, the FBI decided it wasn't enough for their agents either, which as you know led to the development of the 10mm, and subsequently, the .40 S&W.
 
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Glockster30 said:
What is your point? I decided that a 9mm is not enough firepower for me, and guess what, the FBI decided it wasn't enough for their agents either, which as you know led to the development of the 10mm, and subsequently, the .40 S&W.
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Wrong, FBI continued to spec and issue 9mm to this day. They never completely went over. Continued to issue 9mm until 1997 when they began issuing the g22. The 10mm was never popular with agents and was largely replaced with the Sig 226/228. I believe agents are currently allowed to carry the g26 in addition to the .40 23. Also, some SWAT units still use the mp5 in 9mm.
 
As others have said +p ammo will perform. If you need more then the 5 rounds in the cylinder your situational awareness has completely failed you and you'd probably be sucking it no matter what you were carrying. I seem to remember reading an FBI report that said the vast majority of self defense shootings expend 3-4 rounds. Unless you're flipping people off in the hood as you walk through at night, it's highly unlikely you'll be involved in a prolonged gun battle.
 
Glockster30 said:
Moral of the story - never felt underpowered when carrying the Colt, although today, I don't carry anything in less than fortay or .45 ACP (except very infrequently, a SIG 229 in .357 SIG). After reading about the infamous 1986 Miami FBI shootout against 2 BG, where IICR, two agents died, and 5 of the other 6 agents were wounded, I decided that the 9mm was not for me, even though the current defensive 9mm ammo is much improved.
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They were seriously outgunned and unprepared - even though it was two on six - (then eight ) when , the two had much more firepower and used it aggressively. The agents were reduced to hiding behind cars shooting snubbies. Their shotguns etc. in the trunks of the cars.

But yes - 9mm minimum and sometimes .45.

What the FBI didn’t know was that the suspects, Michael Platt and William Matix, were both trained U.S. military veterans, were heavily armed, had killed before, and had no intention of being captured by law enforcement.

With his rifle and military training Platt dominated the firefight against the FBI agents who were armed with S&W revolvers, three S&W 9mm pistols, and one 12 gauge shotgun. (A second shotgun was inaccessible in a case in one of the FBI agent vehicles).
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A look at the 1986 FBI Miami shootout 27 years later - Detroit Firearms | Examiner.com
 
Never underestimate 9mm. +P+ and +P can bring upwards of 525 ft/lbs of kinectic energy, better than most .40s. TNoutdoors9 has some insane ballastic gel tests with a Glock 19.
 
It took 5 whole pages for a thread on j frames to degrade into a 9mm vs 40 peeing contest? Come on guys, this is the internet. If you can't make a thread go off the rails faster than that you don't deserve the cheetos your mom brings down to the basement.[grin]
 
Smash05 said:
Wrong, FBI continued to spec and issue 9mm to this day. They never completely went over. Continued to issue 9mm until 1997 when they began issuing the g22. The 10mm was never popular with agents and was largely replaced with the Sig 226/228. I believe agents are currently allowed to carry the g26 in addition to the .40 23. Also, some SWAT units still use the mp5 in 9mm.
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Not wrong...read very closely. I never said that the FBI stayed with the 10mm. They tried it, but it was too difficult a round to use for some of their agents. Following that, S&W developed the .40 S&W. And, I never stated that the 9mm was dropped altogether. However, most law enforcement agencies throughout the country use higher calibers than the 9mm, such as the .40 S&W, the .357 SIG, and the .45 ACP. I am not sure why an example of the MP5 in 9mm still being carried by some SWAT teams is relevant to my point. The MP5 is not a CCW, has a longer barrel, and thus higher velocities, and is used for different purposes.

I simply stated that a 9mm is not my choice of caliber for a self-defense handgun!
 
Philly3458 said:
I would like to get other views in this. For 53 years of my life I did not carry a gun and fortunately never was in a situation that required one. A little over 2 years ago I decided to get my license and begin to carry. I chose a J frame due to light weight and concealability. I figured if ever in a serious jam I would have a reasonable chance to get out alive. As I have shared this many have suggested that its not enough gun, the caliber is weak, reloads are slow, etc, etc, etc. They say you need at least a 9mm, at least one extra mag(many indicate 2), 10 + 1 in the pistol and of course dress around all that.

I say phewy, what do you say?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Well, the idea behind this is, for how many situations do you want to be prepared? A little 5-6 shot revolver is only good for one attacker, a very slight chance it's good for two. You will NOT be able to put people down with one shot. With ten rounds, I'm barely comfortable defending against two people. I do not carry an extra mag.

These people, who carry 10+1 plus extra mags sometimes even more than this, sometimes even with a full size pistol, are trying to be prepared for any situation. It really just gives you more potential versus more attackers and at slightly longer ranges. All in all, I'd say carry enough to defend against two people (The statistic probability, just one isn't too likely) and then find whatever is most comfortable for you to carry. I carry in the pocket, since it's easy and convenient for me.
 
Master Shooter said:
Well, the idea behind this is, for how many situations do you want to be prepared? A little 5-6 shot revolver is only good for one attacker, a very slight chance it's good for two. You will NOT be able to put people down with one shot. With ten rounds, I'm barely comfortable defending against two people. I do not carry an extra mag.

These people, who carry 10+1 plus extra mags sometimes even more than this, sometimes even with a full size pistol, are trying to be prepared for any situation. It really just gives you more potential versus more attackers and at slightly longer ranges. All in all, I'd say carry enough to defend against two people (The statistic probability, just one isn't too likely) and then find whatever is most comfortable for you to carry. I carry in the pocket, since it's easy and convenient for me.
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Not sure I understand why you say 5 shots are not enough for two people. Could you explain?

Bernie G found that 5 shots worked nicely against 4 thugs. On the other hand there is Harry Bechwith who found 105 shots was not enough, but I think 5 shots should be enough for two attackers.

Again, if you feel you need more, I have no problem with that. I just don't think someone carrying a snub should feel unprepared for most defensive situations.
 
I say phewy too!
Good modern defensive ammo, IMO, has greatly improved to more level the playing field among the most carried calibers.
So your J-Frame with good jhp's is more than capable to get you out of a jam.
 
More people are killed by .22 than any other caliber every year. Second of all remember the old saying "3 shots, 3 seconds, 3 yards". .38 is more than enough. Throw some Hornandy critical defense in that snubby. All you caliber arguing people go shoot your 8" groups with your .45 and take your arguments elsewhere.
 
Infamous said:
More people are killed by .22 than any other caliber every year.
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Killed by does not necessarily equate stopped by.

A friend of mine used to be an EMT. He once responded to a call of a man with a gunshot wound. The victim was sitting on the street curb, completely lucid and responsive. He was loaded up into the ambulance and driven to the hospital, but crashed en route and ended up dead from internal bleeding. The bullet was a .22 LR.

This person was effectively killed by a .22, but he was more than capable of continuing to function and were he a violent assailant, his victim likely would have joined him in the obituaries in the local paper.

I agree with you that .38 is probably a sufficient caliber; in fact, I trust a j-frame .38 snubbie to cover my *** in the warmer months of the year. However, don't kid yourself that a 5 shot .38 is anything but a compromise. Nothing to be defensive about; any carry gun is a compromise compared to the options you have when portability is not a concern. But I've come to terms with the fact that even though I would love to conceal a full-size Glock with two reloads, it doesn't work for my circumstances like the j-frame .38 in my pocket does.
 
I carry an M&P shield in .40. At .95" width it is very easy to carry IWB concealed all year round. I like the .38 snub for ankle carry and pocket.
 
How about pocket carry? I have the 9mm version, and it does fit in my pants pocket, but I don't have a pocket holster yet to see if it gets hung up on the draw.

It's a nice little gun to run. I'm quicker with a j-frame, but the capacity and reload speed of the Shield is certainly a step up.
 
I bought a cheap black hawk pocket holster from walmart to see how it felt.
Just seems a little big for pants pocket (they were jeans). Didn't try in shorts. Also keep in mind it wasn't a good pocket holster. In my jacket pocket it is great. I like the revolver in the jacket pocket better because I can fire 5 rounds from the pocket.
 
northframingham said:
Any handgun that you #1 actually carry & #2 can shoot well is more important than the caliber!
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+1 My guess is just pulling it out and pointing it at someone is going to stop the threat. I know I wouldn't want to look down the barrel of any sized caliber never mind a .38. You have to ask yourself what would you do if a gun was pointed at you. All the talk about stopping power and calibers is internet fantasy IMO.
 
Sterg said:
+1 My guess is just pulling it out and pointing it at someone is going to stop the threat. I know I wouldn't want to look down the barrel of any sized caliber never mind a .38. You have to ask yourself what would you do if a gun was pointed at you. All the talk about stopping power and calibers is internet fantasy IMO.
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There are no guarantees in a defensive shooting scenario. Yes, many assailants would quickly turn tail at the sight of a gun, but in other cases... "**** you and your high-powered rifle! I'm gonna kill you mother****ers!"
 

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