7.62x54r versus .30-06

tk421991

tk421991

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I have a M91/30, and I might be coming into a 1990s Savage 110 deer rifle (no sights, cheap scope) sometime soon.

So all things considered, would you rather stick with .30-06 or 7.62x54r? And I mean all things considered, like:


  • Ammo availability and price
  • Rifle selection: bolt, semi, pump, lever (strangely, they're both available in a Vepr AK)
  • Inherent accuracy of the round
  • Reload-ability (the cartridge, not the guns)
  • Bullet selection and weights
  • Anything else that comes to mind
 
Surplus 30.06 availability is not what it used to be. Now if the rifle was in 308 I would say both because 308 is more available. Keep in mind, the Russian round is so cheap you can stockpile three times as much 308 for the same price. Currently surplus 30.06 is the same price as 308 but that won't last.
 
-7.62x54r is the cheapest full-power rifle round period
-offers a selection of various guns - bolt, semi. Never seen pump or lever though
-surplus rounds is fairly accurate although not match grade of course. Commercial stuff is a lot better and match grade available although hard to find.
-reloadability-wise 7.62x54r is not great compared to native US-borne rounds, however a lot better than some of other obscure surplus. Brass case with boxer pocket can be found although at the cost of almost a dollar per case. Despite wide believe of berdan steel case not being re-loadable it actually is. You will need to come up with additional hydraulic de-priming tool and carbide dies. regular dies will work too but would wear faster. Berdan primers are available although not widely.
-Selection of .311-.312 bluets has improved in recent years although not even close to wide selection of .308 out there.

there are people here and on other forums as well as you tube videos on reloading berdan and steel cases.
 
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54R is not going away, there are tons of it still being made to feed hungry PKMs and whatnot, still in service. If price goes high enough, it will make it's way to the States.

In terms of reloading 54R, you can just pull the bullet from any live round, measure your powder and seat yours in. Leave the priming this crap to Irina in Novosibirsk.
 
Boris said:
54R is not going away, there are tons of it still being made to feed hungry PKMs and whatnot, still in service. If price goes high enough, it will make it's way to the States.

In terms of reloading 54R, you can just pull the bullet from any live round, measure your powder and seat yours in. Leave the priming this crap to Irina in Novosibirsk.
Click to expand...

well that will take care of the consistency round to round, assuming that you have a rifle that can shoot it tight enough to make that consistency count
 
"Deer Rifle" is the important part of the post. WTF does ammo availability and price have anything to do with a deer rifle. You buy the best ammo, sight in the gun, take it out and warm it up every once in a while and shoot at deer a or two (if your lucky). By no means will you need to stockpile ammo. If I take a week off of work and go up to the mountains and sit there for 3-5 days, and see a deer, I want the absolute best shit money can buy. Not a $0.35 round. Get a 308 or a 30-06.
 
Mike-Mike said:
"Deer Rifle" is the important part of the post. WTF does ammo availability and price have anything to do with a deer rifle. You buy the best ammo, sight in the gun, take it out and warm it up every once in a while and shoot at deer a or two (if your lucky). By no means will you need to stockpile ammo. If I take a week off of work and go up to the mountains and sit there for 3-5 days, and see a deer, I want the absolute best shit money can buy. Not a $0.35 round. Get a 308 or a 30-06.
Click to expand...

well, that's another perspective.
i totally missed the 'deer-rifle' part [rofl]
i love the 7.62x54r though
 
Mike-Mike said:
"Deer Rifle" is the important part of the post. WTF does ammo availability and price have anything to do with a deer rifle. You buy the best ammo, sight in the gun, take it out and warm it up every once in a while and shoot at deer a or two (if your lucky). By no means will you need to stockpile ammo. If I take a week off of work and go up to the mountains and sit there for 3-5 days, and see a deer, I want the absolute best shit money can buy. Not a $0.35 round. Get a 308 or a 30-06.
Click to expand...

Exactly, that's why I'm not interested in surplus .30-06 or 7.62x54r. I'm talking about commercial ammo or reloads. Not spam cans, not Greek M2. Ammo avaliability and price still matter, because its harder to find quality 7.62x54r than it is to find ballstic tip or match grade .30-06. If we're talking cartridge against cartridge, its always relevant.
 
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I'm fairly biased towards the 30/06, but for hunting I world say there are more commercial loads for the 3006. It's been a very loved round of the white tail community for a century.
 
rudiewhitebwoy said:
My experience has been 5 to 1
Click to expand...
Even better.

tk421991 said:
Exactly, that's why I'm not interested in surplus .30-06 or 7.62x54r. I'm talking about commercial ammo or reloads. Not spam cans, not Greek M2. Ammo avaliability and price still matter, because its harder to find quality 7.62x54r than it is to find ballstic tip or match grade .30-06. If we're talking cartridge against cartridge, its always relevant.
Click to expand...

Well you didn't state that in the OP...

In that case, 30.06 is fine, there are still a fair number of good accurate factory made boxes out there. Once you have some brass, you can then fine tune a load to the rifle itself for ultimate accuracy.

Keep the Mosin because the ammo is dirt cheap, allowing you to get trigger time without breaking the bank. 22lr is cheaper but that's assuming you can find it and have a rifle in that caliber.
 
There are a lot of good ammo selections for 54R. Here's a video review of some...


30-06 has similar ballistics to a .308, but more expensive. 54R is on par with 300 win mag.
 
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Gman021 said:
54R is on par with 300 win mag.
Click to expand...

I'd hate to call BS, but BS. Like I said, I have a M91/30. One fine Saturday morning when I was at the range, a guy brought a .300 Win Mag. There is no comparison. The M91/30 was a normal, happy "BOOM", and the guy's .300 Win Mag was a shock-wave, then an even louder "BOOM". I love my M91/30 and I'm aware of its lethality, but it has its limitations.

If you want to be precise in comparing the two, the particular load I was shooting that day, Sellier and Bellot 174gr BTHP, runs at 2650 fps out of a 28" barrel. A 180gr .300 Win Mag is about 3100 fps out of a shorter barrel. This guy was shooting reloads out of a bolt action, so he could've been higher than that with ease.
 
tk421991 said:
I'd hate to call BS, but BS. Like I said, I have a M91/30. One fine Saturday morning when I was at the range, a guy brought a .300 Win Mag. There is no comparison. The M91/30 was a normal, happy "BOOM", and the guy's .300 Win Mag was a shock-wave, then an even louder "BOOM". I love my M91/30 and I'm aware of its lethality, but it has its limitations.

If you want to be precise in comparing the two, the particular load I was shooting that day, Sellier and Bellot 174gr BTHP, runs at 2650 fps out of a 28" barrel. A 180gr .300 Win Mag is about 3100 fps out of a shorter barrel. This guy was shooting reloads out of a bolt action, so he could've been higher than that with ease.
Click to expand...

It could easily BS. I read somewhere that someone loaded a 54R to be on par with an average 300 win. But I can't verify or remember it that well so don't take my word for it.

But the guy shooting the m91/30 most likely had surplus ammo. Reloading by hand can change ballistics drastically.
 
The Ammo Channel - MJ Projects - YouTube

This guy does a lot of interesting stuff with surplus ammo. Reloading Berdan, converting Berdan to Boxer. I dont know enough to say whether its advisable or not and considering the price of surplus it may not be a good way to spend you time, but still interesting to watch, imo.





dnepro-mike said:
-7.62x54r is the cheapest full-power rifle round period
-offers a selection of various guns - bolt, semi. Never seen pump or lever though
-surplus rounds is fairly accurate although not match grade of course. Commercial stuff is a lot better and match grade available although hard to find.
-reloadability-wise 7.62x54r is not great compared to native US-borne rounds, however a lot better than some of other obscure surplus. Brass case with boxer pocket can be found although at the cost of almost a dollar per case. Despite wide believe of berdan steel case not being re-loadable it actually is. You will need to come up with additional hydraulic de-priming tool and carbide dies. regular dies will work too but would wear faster. Berdan primers are available although not widely.
-Selection of .311-.312 bluets has improved in recent years although not even close to wide selection of .308 out there.

there are people here and on other forums as well as you tube videos on reloading berdan and steel cases.
Click to expand...
 
Gman021 said:
It could easily BS. I read somewhere that someone loaded a 54R to be on par with an average 300 win. But I can't verify or remember it that well so don't take my word for it.

But the guy shooting the m91/30 most likely had surplus ammo. Reloading by hand can change ballistics drastically.
Click to expand...

I wasn't shooting surplus. I was shooting 174gr BTHP Sellier and Bellot; match grade ammo. That's why I mentioned that load before.
 
tk421991 said:
I wasn't shooting surplus. I was shooting 174gr BTHP Sellier and Bellot; match grade ammo. That's why I mentioned that load before.
Click to expand...

I didn't read that part. But I wouldn't think the 54R would be off by too much. But I would still choose a win mag over both 30-06 and 54R if price wasn't a big deal.


If you plan to shoot 54R a lot, get a VEPR.
 
Gman021 said:
I didn't read that part. But I wouldn't think the 54R would be off by too much. But I would still choose a win mag over both 30-06 and 54R if price wasn't a big deal.


If you plan to shoot 54R a lot, get a VEPR.
Click to expand...

There is literally no comparison. There's a difference of around 500 fps, with 7.62x54r being the slower of the two. Think about it this way, .45ACP is about 1000 fps and .44 Magnum can get up to 1400 or 1500 fps.

If your reloads get a 500 fps increase from factory speeds, without dropping down to a smaller bullet, that's an extreme overpressure. That'd be 7.62x54r +P+++. Look at a reloading guide, I have Lee and Vihtavuori guides. 7.62x54r will not get beyond 3000 fps unless you keep the bullets at or smaller than 150gr, and that's the high end. Shooting "overpressure" reloaded ammo out of a 70+ year old gun is a sure fire way to cause a catastrophic failure.

And yes, I'm planning on buying a Vepr.
 
tk421991 said:
There is literally no comparison. There's a difference of around 500 fps, with 7.62x54r being the slower of the two. Think about it this way, .45ACP is about 1000 fps and .44 Magnum can get up to 1400 or 1500 fps.

If your reloads get a 500 fps increase from factory speeds, without dropping down to a smaller bullet, that's an extreme overpressure. That'd be 7.62x54r +P+++. Look at a reloading guide, I have Lee and Vihtavuori guides. 7.62x54r will not get beyond 3000 fps unless you keep the bullets at or smaller than 150gr, and that's the high end. Shooting "overpressure" reloaded ammo out of a 70+ year old gun is a sure fire way to cause a catastrophic failure.

And yes, I'm planning on buying a Vepr.
Click to expand...

But here's my question, can the VEPR handle much hotter loads, or is the difference negligible? I understand the loads will never get to win mag level.
 
Gman021 said:
But here's my question, can the VEPR handle much hotter loads, or is the difference negligible? I understand the loads will never get to win mag level.
Click to expand...

Supposedly MOLOT proofs the Veprs to shoot every commercially available 7.62x54r. That being said, I wouldn't press my luck by shooting overpressure reloads out of one. Generally speaking, semi autos are less reload friendly and are meant to handle specific loads of a caliber.

If you really want to push the envelope, there are better calibers that offer greater accuracy and come in better platforms than both the Vepr and the Mosin. Ask guys who own Veprs; at the end of the day its just a really nice AK.
 
They are comparable in power and trajectory. Prvi sells both in boxer primed with hunting bullets for about the same money. For hunting, the Mosin is harder to scope properly, but then again, there is nothing that says you can't use iron sights. Reloading costs also are about the same. The 30-06 has a much wider range of usable bullets, but that wouldn't matter much if you are happy with cup and core bullets and settled e.g. on 150 or 180 grain bullets. So it boils down to cost of practice ammunition and ergonomics. Blasting ammunition widely favors the 7.62x54 at about 21 cents a shot. Ergonomics? You'll just have to work with both to find which you prefer.
 
tk421991 said:
There is literally no comparison. There's a difference of around 500 fps, with 7.62x54r being the slower of the two. Think about it this way, .45ACP is about 1000 fps and .44 Magnum can get up to 1400 or 1500 fps.
Click to expand...
Not to get off topic, but .45ACP is 850 fps, way short of 1000. At least out of a 5 inch barrel. 45ACP+P may be closer to 1000.
 

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