AR malfunctions help *UPDATE* SUCCESS!!!!!!!

Have fun! Put plenty of CLP on that bolt. It needs to be lubed.

You never took the bolt out before? You gotta do it! Just do a quick clean after shooting: disassemble, spray CLP, scrub with old tooth brush, wipe with old t shirt (cotton) and spray a little more CLP and reassemble. I do it outside at my range and use a pile of old targets to catch the grime. It doesn't have to be surgery clean each time but a little cleaning goes a long way to keep the buildup in check and lube those moving parts.
 
how many rounds does the rifle have thru it?

A quick test for the rings is to take the BCG w/ bolt out, pull the bolt forward. stand it up with the bolt down on the table and the rings should support the weight of the BCG.
 
Supermoto said:
how many rounds does the rifle have thru it?

A quick test for the rings is to take the BCG w/ bolt out, pull the bolt forward. stand it up with the bolt down on the table and the rings should support the weight of the BCG.
Click to expand...

This bolt went in and out of the carrier very easily. I don't think it would have passed this test.
In my professional opinion (which has nothing to do with guns but is relevant) i would say this bolt was very dry at one time and that is what cooked the rings. They remind me of piston rings. Where's the oil ring!!?!!

i think i'm gonna try some motor oil which has been suggested to me. It makes more sense now that i have seen how all the parts are assembled.
 
Another_David said:
Maybe but ammo can run a huge spectrum of power and some of that eastern block stuff has a coating on it that will gum up the works.
Click to expand...

Stuff like wolf and tula has a polymer coating that does not burn off and gum up the chamber. What happens is that case does not seal well against the chamber wall. If your gun will not run these types of ammo then there is an issue.
 
Ink said:
This bolt went in and out of the carrier very easily. I don't think it would have passed this test.
In my professional opinion (which has nothing to do with guns but is relevant) i would say this bolt was very dry at one time and that is what cooked the rings. They remind me of piston rings. Where's the oil ring!!?!!

i think i'm gonna try some motor oil which has been suggested to me. It makes more sense now that i have seen how all the parts are assembled.
Click to expand...

If you are burning out rings in 600 rounds, there is a bigger issue. Was the bolt/bcg bone dry?
 
when i got it, yeah i believe it was dry. I oil the bolt carrier every trip to the range. The stuff is coming out of everywhere when i shoot. i have only fired about 300 + or so rounds through it in the few weeks i have owned it. I know there are new rings now so i can watch for any issues to creep up.
 
Another_David said:
Maybe but ammo can run a huge spectrum of power and some of that eastern block stuff has a coating on it that will gum up the works. Watch where the brass falls. Overgassed, fast cycling tends to throw the brass forward to the 1 O'clock position. Undergassed, slower cycling tends to throw it back in the five O'clock position.
Click to expand...

I'm with Supermoto, the coating won't be gumming up the chamber.

You bring up a good point though. It's not a bad idea to have a few extra buffers in your range bag. Especially if you switch between 5.56 and .223 pressures.
 
Supermoto said:
How do you know it was the Polymer coating and not carbon? A round can stick for many reasons, most likely from carbon fouling in the chamber or a bad case. Considering people have not be able to burn of the polymer with a torch, it doesn't seem likely that the coating was the cause
Click to expand...

Well I don't know for certain that it was, just a guess based on reading on the 'webs. It only had ~250 rounds through it with no sticky BCG problems; then after 40 rounds of Wolf it was stuck about a week later when I took it out of the safe again. There wasn't a whole lot of carbon build up on there either, FWIW.
 
Last edited:
Supermoto said:
Stuff like wolf and tula has a polymer coating that does not burn off and gum up the chamber. What happens is that case does not seal well against the chamber wall. If your gun will not run these types of ammo then there is an issue.
Click to expand...

Okay, I've never used the Wolf 5.56 myself but I've seen some people at the range have issues with it.

I was having a similar problem as the OP and I did switch my carbine to the H buffer but it didn't help. I think it is really an extractor problem just like the OP. I got frustrated with it and haven't been back to the range yet to try it with the new extractor yet. Plus, I got a new LMT upper since and that has been keeping me busy. I do keep the orig buffer in my range bag with a bunch of AR spare parts.
 
I have a franken AR built from various manufactures and sourced parts. Have been running 100% commi block ammo even some of the older greenish .223 in spam can and the newer poly coated wolf 5.56 labeled stuff 1200+ rounds with nothing more than a boresnake swipe and a quick wipe and lube of the bolt. I follow the cleaning and lube recomendations on armalites website. issues none, well except some crappy mags

ps if you purchased wolf in any large quantity and have isues wolf will refund your money.
 
clancy dogg said:
This guy told me:
View attachment 21085
Click to expand...

Wow, sure enough I dug out old army m16/m4 operator manuals as well as a tech manual from the early 90's. There it was, stagger the gas rings. The newest operators manual I have (June 2010) does not mention anything about gas ring stagger. I have not bothered getting a new tech manual as you can find tech answers online and they are usually more comprehensive than anything the army can/has published.

For those of you who want an outdated tech manual you can find it here:
http://www.archive.org/details/ArmyTechnicalManualforM16Rifle-Tm9-1005-249-23p

...a good place to start for basic malfunctions.
 
Supermoto said:
Stuff like wolf and tula has a polymer coating that does not burn off and gum up the chamber. What happens is that case does not seal well against the chamber wall. If your gun will not run these types of ammo then there is an issue.
Click to expand...

The coating itself may not be cause the problems but some of the ammo is definitely suspect and I have seen many cases of stuck casings in rifles by different manufacturers. I had a Model 1 kit gun (16") that ran almost exclusively Wolf and Tula poly-coated ammo for 3 years and only recently has it started sticking. I replaced the barrel with a Remsport 14.5 chrome-lined and got the same problem. The same problem has also occurred on my Yankee Hill 20", my Colt 6920 16", and my other Model 1 kit gun (20"), as well as my friend's 10.5" and another random shooter's Stag 16", with different batches of Wolf and/or Tula.

Sorry, but some of the ammo coming over here now is simply suspect.

Every single one of those guns runs flawlessly on PMC and AE brass-cased.
 
Last edited:
vellnueve said:
The coating itself may not be cause the problems but some of the ammo is definitely suspect and I have seen many cases of stuck casings in rifles by different manufacturers. I had a Model 1 kit gun (16") that ran almost exclusively Wolf and Tula poly-coated ammo for 3 years and only recently has it started sticking. I replaced the barrel with a Remsport 14.5 chrome-lined and got the same problem. The same problem has also occurred on my Yankee Hill 20", my Colt 6920 16", and my other Model 1 kit gun (20"), as well as my friend's 10.5" and another random shooter's Stag 16", with different batches of Wolf and/or Tula.

Sorry, but some of the ammo coming over here now is simply suspect.
Click to expand...
I've had some tula that seems to be just bare steel. It hasn't stuck in the chamber, but the additional friction of the cases has them hanging up in mags that have otherwise had no trouble.

I've run thousands of steel cased lacquer and poly coated without issue - most of them on giggle.
 
SO, after installing the BCM SOPMOD bolt rebuild kit here's where i'm at....
I ran 100 rounds at the range this morning. I believe my extraction issue is gone now, but i don't wanna speak too soon. The true test will be tomorrow's rifle match. Interesting though, the rifle cycles a lot faster now and also gets much hotter. Probably because the gas rings are sealing proper now. In a completely unrelated note, i swapped out lower receivers so now i have my zOmbIe ZA-15 ! Curious, the plug constantly pops out of my grip now, where it never did before.
I'll report in after the HSC match.
And yes, i would recommend the sopmod kit. It took a nOOb like me about 15 minutes to install the kit.
 
meth0d said:
Well I don't know for certain that it was, just a guess based on reading on the 'webs. It only had ~250 rounds through it with no sticky BCG problems; then after 40 rounds of Wolf it was stuck about a week later when I took it out of the safe again. There wasn't a whole lot of carbon build up on there either, FWIW.
Click to expand...
Yeah, gotta call BS there, I typically put at least 250 rounds of .223/5.56 down range each range trips and during the summer we've been doing that 2 days each weekend almost every weekend. Gone through a !@#$load of steel case ammo, wolf, tula, brownbear, silver bear... you didn't get lacquer or polymer buildup in 250 rounds. They are not the cleanest bruning thing in the world (understatement alert), they leave behind all sorts of residue, but its not case coating, it's from the burn. Brake cleaner in the gas tube and chamber and re-lube and I'm good to go... [laugh]
 
cekim said:
Yeah, gotta call BS there, I typically put at least 250 rounds of .223/5.56 down range each range trips and during the summer we've been doing that 2 days each weekend almost every weekend. Gone through a !@#$load of steel case ammo, wolf, tula, brownbear, silver bear... you didn't get lacquer or polymer buildup in 250 rounds. They are not the cleanest bruning thing in the world (understatement alert), they leave behind all sorts of residue, but its not case coating, it's from the burn. Brake cleaner in the gas tube and chamber and re-lube and I'm good to go... [laugh]
Click to expand...

What else could it be then? Is 290 (total of the Ultramax + the Wolf ammo) rounds enough to cause significant enough carbon build up to jam the BCG?

Specs on my rifle are as follows:

- DS Arms M4 flat top upper
- Young Mfg chrome NM FA BCG
- LMT charging handle
- White Oak Armament 18" SPR barrel, 1-7 twist
- Rifle length gas system
- Low pro Rainier Arms match grade gas block
- BCE BattleComp 1.0 matte stainless
- JP Enterprises XL hand guard
- Daniel Defense LPK
- Stag A2 stock

Combination of Hoppe's gun oil and CLP for lubrication.
 
meth0d said:
What else could it be then? Is 290 (total of the Ultramax + the Wolf ammo) rounds enough to cause significant enough carbon build up to jam the BCG?

Specs on my rifle are as follows:

- DS Arms M4 flat top upper
- Young Mfg chrome NM FA BCG
- LMT charging handle
- White Oak Armament 18" SPR barrel, 1-7 twist
- Rifle length gas system
- Low pro Rainier Arms match grade gas block
- BCE BattleComp 1.0 matte stainless
- JP Enterprises XL hand guard
- Daniel Defense LPK
- Stag A2 stock

Combination of Hoppe's gun oil and CLP for lubrication.
Click to expand...
It is very dirty ammo - I see lots of "debris" in the gun afterward. Some of that is the powder itself and some of that is the fact that steel does not expand and contract as fast as brass, so the chamber does not seal as well - you get blow-by of combustion gasses in addition to the gas tube.

250 rounds is not enough to jam though even at its dirtiest without something else marginal in the gun. Without the gun in my hand (and frankly even with it in my hand), it is hard to say what the most likely component to cause that would be. It's a "process of elimination. You measure what you can measure and look for odd wear marks, but it can be an iterative process to figure out something like that.

When you say "jam up the BCG," do you mean the bolt won't rotate and release from the barrel spacer (thus locking the BCG in the upper)? That can be a headspace issue that brass "hides" but steel shows...
 
Last edited:
cekim said:
It is very dirty ammo - I see lots of "debris" in the gun afterward. Some of that is the powder itself and some of that is the fact that steel does not expand and contract as fast as brass, so the chamber does not seal as well - you get blow-by of combustion gasses in addition to the gas tube.

250 rounds is not enough to jam though even at its dirtiest without something else marginal in the gun. Without the gun in my hand (and frankly even with it in my hand), it is hard to say what the most likely component to cause that would be. It's a "process of elimination. You measure what you can measure and look for odd wear marks, but it can be an iterative process to figure out something like that.

When you say "jam up the BCG," do you mean the bolt won't rotate and release from the barrel spacer (thus locking the BCG in the upper)? That can be a headspace issue that brass "hides" but steel shows...
Click to expand...

Yeah, it was stuck closed, wouldn't unlock or move rearward at all; I had to hold the rifle vertically and whack the butt stock against the ground while pulling on the charging handle to get it free.

I cleaned the upper, stripped and cleaned the BCG with Breakfree CLP and oiled it all up with Hoppe's Elite.

About 4 or 5 days later I put 200 rounds of Remington UMC and 120 or 140 rounds of the black box American Eagle ammo through it with 0 problems. Planning to order up some SLiP 2000 EWL soon, as the Hoppe's seems to evaporate pretty quickly.

I ordered the barrel and bolt from Rainier Arms and was told they checked the head spacing when I placed the order. Do you think it's worth getting one of those go/no go gauges to check the head spacing?

I picked up 99% of the brass that's run through it since day one, if there are any indicators you can suggest, I'll take a look through it.

Thanks for the input, much appreciated.
 
meth0d said:
Yeah, it was stuck closed, wouldn't unlock or move rearward at all; I had to hold the rifle vertically and whack the butt stock against the ground while pulling on the charging handle to get it free.

I cleaned the upper, stripped and cleaned the BCG with Breakfree CLP and oiled it all up with Hoppe's Elite.

About 4 or 5 days later I put 200 rounds of Remington UMC and 120 or 140 rounds of the black box American Eagle ammo through it with 0 problems. Planning to order up some SLiP 2000 EWL soon, as the Hoppe's seems to evaporate pretty quickly.

I ordered the barrel and bolt from Rainier Arms and was told they checked the head spacing when I placed the order. Do you think it's worth getting one of those go/no go gauges to check the head spacing?

I picked up 99% of the brass that's run through it since day one, if there are any indicators you can suggest, I'll take a look through it.

Thanks for the input, much appreciated.
Click to expand...
You can usually find someone who will bring them to the range and let you borrow, but yes it is worth checking given those symptoms. If the head space is off, particularly steel will stretch and not "go back" like brass might leaving the case wedged.

It's also worth understanding that once in a while you run into crap factory ammo. Bad round, bad batch... stuff happens...

Saw some Federal at the range in the last couple of weeks that was way over length. The gun in question smashed the bullet into the barrel and then proceeded to crush the shoulder of the round with the inertia of the bolt leaving the case wedged in the chamber even before firing.

Pulled a few from the box and they were horrible...

I've had boxes of tula that looked liked just about every primer was just a wink and a smile from blowing out of the case - clearly the pockets were too loose or the case overpressurized...

When someone says something is headspaced, trust but verify. [wink]
 
Lemon? Bring it back and let someone else deal with the headache.

Sent from the Hyundai of the droids, the Samsung Replenish, using Tapatalk.
 

Similar threads

Ma. March gun auction Major SUCCESS.
Replies
3
Views
300
Mesatchornug
Mesatchornug
Help identify
Replies
4
Views
207
Taipan01
Taipan01
Help identifying CZ75 mags
Replies
25
Views
207
PappyM3
PappyM3
Update-Liberty Safe Electronic Lock Fail
2
Replies
35
Views
971
GaryO
GaryO
  • Poll
Help me decide
2 3
Replies
73
Views
1K
Supermoto
Supermoto
Back
Top Bottom