Democrats and Guns

Rubbish to you too - WWII actually accomplished that...

The systemic collapse was as much caused by interventionist government policies up to that point as it was excessive speculation in the markets.

His policies and ideology created the entitlements that have bankrupted this nation... We simply cannot afford Social Security and Medicare even if they weren't broken-by-design ponzi schemes...

All of that ignores the problem that our Constitution does not grant the authority to our government to do those things...

You haven't answered my question of why you presume that I want people poor, stupid and dieing in the street? I don't. In fact, I see from history that freedom and limited government are the best way to prevent precisely this from occurring. The founders of this nation, having studied history better than most people these days, agreed with me.

Actually if you read thru some of the Austrian economics analysis of the WW2 era they point out that the REAL economy did not start to recover until a couple of years AFTER the war. That was when all the government spending, regulation, and subsidies - started to peter out.

WW2 did not "cure" the depression - the massive government spending was just like all the spending we are seeing out of our government right now - it was deficit spending. Which is not true economic activity. And the economy during the war was not one geared to making things that make society wealthier - it was geared towards burning thru resources and making things that were going to be blown up - or were to be used to blow things up. When the war ended there was destruction everywhere - and all those implements of war were bulldozed into holes or left to rot in the desert.

Does that sound like an "economy" that is geared towards wealth production?

Saying that government spending is helping the economy is like saying that taking crack is good for person's energy levels. It looks good for a while as you economy or the crack addict seems to have a lot of energy and can perform at levels that a healthy person cannot sustain. Sooner or later the crack becomes addictive - and it rots out the guts of the person - or the economy. It's fake. It's a lie. It's a scam.
 
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It's amazing how truly ignorant our society is, if many knew as much about the founding principles of our country as they know about American Idol, I believe there would be far more anger than there is...
Yes but this is not the fault of either party. If the people want bread and circuses and the people get bread and circuses the people are happy. Most are too damn stupid to understand or care that someone has to bake the bread and someone has to staff the circus.
 
Bogview:

WHAT?!?! Do you just regurgitate what is fed to you by the media? FDR decidedly DID NOT "end the Great Depression". Economic indicators used at the time demonstrate that the U.S. was still mired in economic depression as late as 1939. As an example, unemployment actually increased to approx. 19% in 1939, well into the New Deal.

Increased manufacturing from the period of 1939-1941 associated with a build-up in the armed forces (including military aid to our future allies) in preparation for the war that many saw coming was primarily responsible for starting the U.S. on the road to recovery.

These types of statements from people scare the crap out of me. Talk about the old adage "those that forget history are doomed to repeat it".

You are correct. The jobs FDR created were govt. jobs just to put people to work and "give" them a paycheck. Thru the 1930`s unemployment was close to 20%. WWII brought the country out of the depression because factories geared up for wartime production.
 
WW2 did not "cure" the depression - the massive government spending was just like all the spending we are seeing out of our government right now - it was deficit spending. Which is not true economic activity.
Agreed - which is why I said it was unsustainable, but there is no question that it changed the employment landscape for the better...

This is the whole problem with Keynesian economics - in the short term, it can actually create jobs - the issue is how much those jobs cost us in the long term and whether they will be around after the borrowed money used to create them dries up?

The answer is usually no...

WWII didn't cure the depression, but it did reset many of the imbalances in the global economy that were holding us back (along with government policies).

I would never argue to have wars to cure economic ailments, but historically speaking, they tend to be significant disruptions to many of the maladies that are causing stagnation/depression which in turn results in a correction to a long term sustainable growth period.

Sadly, war, in addition to being an extension of diplomacy, is also an extension of trade. It can be a rapid (and unpredictable) transfer of wealth and modification to transaction costs. As such, when imbalances exist, they _can_ be corrected during war by virtue of disruption causing a re-pricing. I would argue that wars are generally caused by these economic imbalances (and perception of them). This is certainly the case with WWI and WWII.

Perhaps most unfortunate about all of this is how closely we are mirroring (at the macro economic level), the period that led up to WWI...
 
While I agree with most of what you say, I can name one thing. The Bailout. Looks like the private industry wasn't doing that cheaper.

Private industry wasn't doing that because it shouldn't have been done in the first place.

Government is the only place that you can cast some votes and then go steal a bunch of money to give out to your friends. In private business you actually have to work for your money - so when other people screw up - completely thru faults of their own - and then ask for a bailout, normal sane people who are asked to give up their money to those other people who have effed up royally - or done outright criminal acts - will usually decline to bail out beforementioned criminals and idiots.

Which is why the banking industry is so in bed with government - because it gives them the ability to completely screw up, lose tons of money - then get their friends in government (many of whom previously worked in said same banking industry) to take trillions of taxpayer dollars (in other words money stolen from people like you and me that could have been used for things like feeding ourselves and sending our kids to school) - and send those dollars to the failing banks. Then the banks miraculously !!! recover some very few months later - and hand out massive bonus packages to their top level executives and so forth.

The cheapest option of all is to not bail out people and businesses that should not have been bailed out in the first place.
 
Bogview:

WHAT?!?! Do you just regurgitate what is fed to you by the media? FDR decidedly DID NOT "end the Great Depression". Economic indicators used at the time demonstrate that the U.S. was still mired in economic depression as late as 1939. As an example, unemployment actually increased to approx. 19% in 1939, well into the New Deal.

Increased manufacturing from the period of 1939-1941 associated with a build-up in the armed forces (including military aid to our future allies) in preparation for the war that many saw coming was primarily responsible for starting the U.S. on the road to recovery.

These types of statements from people scare the crap out of me. Talk about the old adage "those that forget history are doomed to repeat it".

Hell, even WWII was only a temp fix. We had a massive recession as soon as the war ended and all those government bills became due. The consumer spending boom of the late 40's and 50's are what actually 'ended' the depression and we no longer have the manufacturering capability to do that.
 
You are correct. The jobs FDR created were govt. jobs just to put people to work and "give" them a paycheck. Thru the 1930`s unemployment was close to 20%. WWII brought the country out of the depression because factories geared up for wartime production.

Factories that are geared up to manufacture military materials - that get sold directly to the government - are in essence "government" jobs. There is no real difference to the taxpayer (who works in a private REAL wealth producing industry) - whether the money gets spent directly on a person who works directly for the government - or whether the money gets spent on a worker putting together bombers in the Ford Rouge River plant (who nominally works for Ford).

It's still money being taken from your pocket - or money being spent that hasn't been collected in taxes (deficit spending) - that is not going towards activities that produce REAL sustainable wealth.

The other part of the reason why employment "increased" during WW2 - was that millions of people were "employed" by the military.

When you take millions of young men out of the work force by conscripting them and putting a rifle in their hands you aren't exactly "helping" the economy. You need to backfill all the jobs they might otherwise be doing with somebody - so you get the illusion of higher employment because all sorts of people who might not otherwise get a job - are suddenly in demand. It's like the dot.com boom - the whole thing was a bubble driven by federal reserve policies - and dot.com companies were sweeping the streets looking for warm bodies so they could grow and get their stock prices up.

During WW2 companies flush with government contracts had to hire somebody to do the work - so they hired women and minorities who in many cases had been shut out of the labor force before. But there were govt. enforced price and wage controls on how much could be paid - so companies - who even though they were subject to strict govt. controls still had to compete in the free market for labor - in many cases offered what incentives they could - one of these being health insurance.

And now that health insurance has spread across pretty much all employment areas - the government is once again messing with the market by trying to take over health insurance.

So the government screwed up the economy and induced the great depression - then all their efforts during the depression failed to make things better, they got us involved in a war and took millions of people out of the labor market and sent them off to that war - industries still having to compete in a free market for labor gave bonuses like health insurance (because they were under govt. wage controls) - then health insurance started spreading - all the while being subject to government regulations which drove it's cost up - as well as the cost of medical care (because it is insured - and follows the rule that that which you subsidize you get more of) - and all of that brings us to where we are today - where health care in general is obscenely expensive - largely because of govt. intrusions into the free market - and the only solution proffered by the usual suspects - is more of the same. More government intervention.

Social Security also get started during the depression - and that is almost bankrupt. I wonder how long it will take for health care to be completely destroyed in this country by government "reform".

Why do the Democrats want to take your guns away? Because they can't have an entire country of people - REALLY pissed off people - with guns who finally realize that it is the big government and it's policies - largely promoted by the Democratic party and it's minions - who have destroyed the country. That's why.
 
The Myth of US Prosperity During World War II

http://www.antiwar.com/henderson/?articleid=8727

The Myth of US Prosperity During World War II


David R. Henderson
In my previous article, I laid out why war is not good for an economy generally. Yet, while many people admit that the resources used to fight the Vietnam War or either of the U.S. wars on Iraq could have been put to better use, they still have an almost romantic view of how good World War II was for the U.S. economy. I promised in my previous article to delve further into that issue.

The main reason most people, including economists, think that the U.S. entry into WWII was good for the economy is that they compare the economy during the war with the economy during the Great Depression, which began in 1929 and lasted until the U.S. entered into war. On its face, this reasoning is plausible. The U.S. was officially at war from Dec. 8, 1941, with its declaration of war on Japan, until Sept. 2, 1945, with the surrender of Japan's government. So, the unemployment rate for 1941, since it includes only three weeks of war, can be taken as an indicator of prewar peacetime unemployment. That rate averaged 9.9 percent for all of 1941. Unemployment fell dramatically throughout the war, reaching a low of 1.2 percent by 1944. Also, between 1941 and 1944 – the peak year of wartime spending – real gross national product rose by 37 percent. In short, World War II reduced unemployment and raised GNP; ergo, World War II was good for the U.S. economy. So goes the reasoning.

But let's look more carefully at those numbers, beginning with the unemployment rate. The U.S. government imposed military conscription in 1940 and got the draft machinery moving early in 1942. Between 1940 and 1944, the size of the military increased by almost 11 million people. Of the 16 million people who were in uniform at some time during World War II, fully 10 million were conscripted. (For more on this, see Robert Higgs, "Wartime Prosperity? A Reassessment of the U.S. Economy in the 1940s.") In other words, they had "jobs" because the alternative was jail. And many of the 6 million who volunteered were what military manpower economists call "draft-induced." One can hardly judge people to be better off, based on their having jobs, if they were forced into these jobs. The only way economists have, or anyone has, to figure out whether someone is better off having a job than being unemployed is to know that the person chose the job. But conscription is the antithesis of choice. And to put all this in numerical perspective, the civilian labor force during World War II was only 54 to 56 million. It's not hard to reduce unemployment by almost 7 million people if you use conscription to raise the size of the armed forces by almost 11 million people.

Still, didn't gross national product increase? Yes, but during World War II, GNP became a meaningless measure because of price controls and war production. Take price controls. Please. When the U.S. government entered the war, it did what many governments do – imposed price controls on a vast array of goods and put itself at the front of the line for those goods. Then it rationed what was left to the general population. The government imposed price controls on virtually all goods used in the war effort – gasoline, rubber, nylon, food and, through the draft, manpower. So when we look at the incomes of consumers and consider what they were able to buy with those incomes, we get an overstatement. Sure, it's great to be able to buy things cheap – if they're available. But price controls and rationing made them unavailable. It's like the old butcher joke:

Customer: How much is your filet mignon?

Butcher: Nine dollars a pound.

Customer: That's outrageous. I can go across the street and buy it for six dollars a pound.

Butcher: Then why don't you buy it across the street?

Customer: He doesn't have any.

Butcher: When I don't have any, I sell it at five dollars a pound.

I think about my parents in this context. The main stories they told me about privation were not about the depression preceding the war, but of the rationing of sugar and meat during the war. They were in Canada, but conditions were similar there, both before and during the war. One thing that stands out is a Feb. 4, 1945, entry in their guest book – just four months after their October 1944 wedding – in which a couple invited for dinner gave a complete listing of everything they'd eaten that weekend, presumably using up my parents' ration coupons for the week. The highlights: bacon, eggs, meat loaf, and cake. Why comment with that degree of detail if it wasn't special?

Probably more important, though, is the way the GNP figures distort in the area of war production. As economic historian Robert Higgs points out, the U.S. essentially had a command economy during World War II. Had he wanted to be less polite but equally accurate, he could have said that the U.S. had a fascist economy. The essence of fascism, as an economic system, is government dictation of what is produced, along with nominal private ownership. The 38 percent1 of GNP that the federal government spent on war in fiscal year 1945 (from July 1, 1944, to June 30, 1945) actually understates the expenditure. The reason goes back to price controls. By putting itself in line for all the goodies, the government paid low prices. But because these prices were artificially low due to price controls, the goods were valued artificially low. It is highly likely that the government truly spent more than 40 percent of GNP on war that year.

But this spending on war still counts as GNP, doesn't it? Yes, in the sense that the government defined it that way. But not in the sense of being production that Americans valued for its usefulness in consumption or investment. All of those expenditures that went for guns, trucks, airplanes, tanks, gasoline, ships, uniforms, and labor were expenditures that were destroyed. Not just the goods, but even the millions of labor hours, were used up without creating value to consumers. It's true that they might have created value by saving America from invasion. Whatever your view on that possibility, that's a separate issue. The point is that it's not prosperity to produce things that government quickly destroys. So, if we factor out this 38 percent, we're left with virtually no increase in real gross national product per capita between 1940 and the last fiscal year of the war.

It's actually worse than that. Despite various policies of Franklin Roosevelt that extended the Great Depression, the economy was coming out of the Depression in the prewar years. The unemployment rate, which had reached 24.9 percent in 1933, the worst year of the Great Depression, had fallen to 17.2 percent in 1939, 14.6 percent in 1940, and, as mentioned, 9.9 percent in 1941. Relatively-free-market economies, as the U.S. economy was, even after eight years of FDR, tend to recover from recessions and depressions as businesses find valuable uses for previously unused resources. The odds are high, therefore, that the unemployment rate would have continued to fall, absent U.S. participation in World War II, possibly reaching as low as 6 or 7 percent by 1944. This means that GNP per person, properly measured to reflect consumers' values, would have been well above its actual level in 1944. Whatever the value of U.S. participation in the war, for Americans' standard of living, World War II was a bust.
 
As for Dems and guns, it's very much a regional thing. You'll note that Montana's Dem governor just signed a bill allowing for criminal charges against feds enforcing federal gun laws on in-state guns.
There are lots of people within the party raising holy Hell on the issue because it's political poison and it's ineffective. In general, the more URBAN a state is, the more gun-control there will be regardless of who is in power. On the federal level, only someone in a totally safe district where gun control is popular will dare vote for more gun control at this point. The dems can be unbelievable idiots, but they haven't forgotten 1994 when even the Speaker of the House lost his seat in Washington, where I'm from. No one at the time grasped how bad the blowback would be from the AWB, but that lesson hasn't been forgotten by most.

At this point I think even Keynes would posit that government spending has AT BEST the ability to make a recession/depression LESS bad than it otherwise might be.

This is decidedly not 1932 or 1952. We don't have a monopoly on manufactured exports and we don't really even have much of a manufacturing base left. I pay very little attention to the folks here about economic policy because I think it's all shaded by wishful thinking about libertarian economics that's never going to happen or a right-wing POV I simply disagree with. But the notion that with a deficit already sky high (something not true in 1932) and the new medicare part D (thanks to Bush) that is 100% deficit financed that more massive govt. spending can get us out of the mess we're in is a fantasy.

And even at that, probably the most important thing you can do with government spending is to reassure the financial markets that there is stability over the long haul.

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and trying to keep up with what moderate economists (not ideologues from either extreme) and that seems to be the general consensus. Freidman and some of the other die-hard Keynesians disagree, but lots of others (people like Nial Ferguson among them) seem to be coming down on the side of very limited but decisive govt. action on limited fronts as being the only role government can really play.

We have a lot of systemic problems that need to be fixed. A lot of that the market will take care of itself, some will require better regulation of the markets. Either way, it's going to be very painful for a lot of people and I don't see government having more than a very partial role in getting things back on track.
 
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And even at that, probably the most important thing you can do with government spending is to reassure the financial markets that there is stability over the long haul.
and that is best accomplished by refusing to manipulate markets to provide as transparent a system as possible. Markets hate uncertainty. If they have to wonder which company will be bailed out, supported, protected or otherwise subsidized, they will have to price in this uncertainty (which is bad).

Bill Nance said:
seem to be coming down on the side of very limited but decisive govt. action on limited fronts as being the only role government can really play.
If government can every do any good, it must be on the margins. This has been completely lost by the Keynesians. They've gone from government operating at the margins to "coax" markets into desirable conditions to government being the primary player (and/or government protected monopolies operating as their proxy) and driving markets out-right.

This is the problem with regulation as well. It's is difficult to impossible to get the regulator (and the public in many cases) to accept "less bad" as the goal of regulation. Any goal beyond "less bad", invariably leads to exponentially increasing manipulation of markets in search of "perfect"...

Witness home lending. They operated at the margins to provide housing to GI's. Then they realized they could "increase home ownership", so they did... Then houses got more expensive because of this addition to the market of artificial lending liquidity. More and more people needed help to buy a house, so government began to manipulate the lending market more. Prices went up more.

Now the government is the primary underwriter of virtually all home loans (in one way or another - either explicitly or implicitly).

Same with college...

This is why some of us caution for increased regulation of anything. First we have to strip away 100 years of regulation that got us here. Then we can debate whether it makes sense to "tweak at the margins" of a free market again when it fails so badly the last time...
 
You are right on. A good friend of mine in her early forties told me that she was not required to take American history in high school. The school had a "current events" curriculum instead.


You almost can't blame many for not knowing that, our schools don't teach it and others have no ambition to read about real history.

Hell, most haven't even read the Constitution.

It's amazing how truly ignorant our society is, if many knew as much about the founding principles of our country as they know about American Idol, I believe there would be far more anger than there is...
 
Hell, even WWII was only a temp fix. We had a massive recession as soon as the war ended and all those government bills became due. The consumer spending boom of the late 40's and 50's are what actually 'ended' the depression and we no longer have the manufacturering capability to do that.
During a discussion on this last night, a friend of mine mentioned a study that makes the case that the boom of the 50's and 60's came about because the gov had built the interstate highway system - the highways were a cause of the prosperity. Don't know the name of the study or I'd post it.

As for Dems and guns, it's very much a regional thing. You'll note that Montana's Dem governor just signed a bill allowing for criminal charges against feds enforcing federal gun laws on in-state guns.
There are lots of people within the party raising holy Hell on the issue because it's political poison and it's ineffective. In general, the more rural a state is, the more gun-control there will be regardless of who is in power.

Huh? I'd think it would be the opposite. Can you expand on this theme a bit? Or is it a typo?
 
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