Four Seasons Firearms, Woburn, MA

Last week, I had my first and last visit to Four Seasons. I will say that although the ammo prices are rather high, the prices on most of the handguns/long guns are pretty decent. Unfortunately, this store does not like dealing with customers who only possess an FID card. I went to FS looking to add a Ruger 10/22 to my collection. The worker told me that he could not even let me hold the rifle since I was an FID card holder, let alone buy it. He told me that the Ruger 10/22 is high capacity becuase it has a detachable mag and there is no such thing as a low-cap rifle with a detachable mag.

This is understandable since not everybody knows the MA laws for low capacity rifles, however, when I even mentioned one word about the Ruger 10/22 being FID compatible the worker became very hostile towards me and acted as if I was insulting him by questioning his word. He was very aggressive towards me and basically told me to leave his store. At this point another worker came and took me away from the disrespectful worker. He walked around with me for a little bit and told me that I could not buy a 10/22 with an FID. He kept trying to push me towards buying a Mosin (which I already own 2 of). I talked with this worker for a little while until our conversation ended with him telling me that the SKS carbine I own is illegal and I could be arrested for owning it [rolleyes]

After trying to explain that the SKS can not be considered high cap since it has a fixed 10rd mag, the first worker I dealt with joined in our conversation and was again treating me like I didn't know what I was talking about and accusing me of disregarding their advice.

I just hope some day that gun stores can realize that treating younger shooters with respect can create life-long customers, instead of underminding them and treatin us like we dont know anything [thinking]
 
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Unfortunately, I think FS' egos have finally got in the way of good customer service. There are too many new, eager, helpful, less-arrogant dealers out there for me to go to FS any more either.
 
peteyb.....Carl the owner must have not been there. He would explain to you his stance on not selling the 10/22 unless you poses a class B. BELIEVE ME if anyone knows the laws its carls lawyers.

http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/chsb/firearms/501 CMR 7.pdf by mass law the ruger 10/22 can with out modification accept a detachable high cap feeding device hence the class B needed to purchase and own in mass. Remember this is the kinda crap that mass will use to shut dealers down.

the only high cap 22s I know that are excempt are the tube fed fixed mags.

The SKS thing is another one thats a grey area... although in its original form design it is not a detachable mag and is fixed at ten rounds it can be easily modified to accept high caps.
Believe me I would not want to have to spend money and time trying to defend this crap.......which I think is why carl does not sell the 10/22 to FID holders.
 
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mac1911 said:
peteyb.....Carl the owner must have not been there. He would explain to you his stance on not selling the 10/22 unless you poses a class B. BELIEVE ME if anyone knows the laws its carls lawyers.
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Without getting into a huge debate over this, you're 110% wrong. This issue has been hashed out on the board like 48 times. The 10/22 was always FID legal, it's not on the large capacity roster and it was always (and still is) sold with a low cap mag. "Capable of Accepting" is BS. Every magazine fed rifle is "capable of accepting" a large capacity magazine, including the ones commonly cited as FID legal. (eg, like those junky mag fed .22 rifles remington and mossberg make, that are gleeflully sold to FID holders every day at every other Walmart and Dicks store in the state).

In this particular case FS (and other stores) have made a "policy decision" of not selling 10/22s to FID holders. There are plenty of other stores that will, in MA, and NH. Just because stores have a policy of not doing it doesn't mean it's against the law. The same issues exist for things like Mini-14s and the LTC-B handgun restrictions.

-Mike
 
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This roster has been compiled in accordance with M.G.L. c.140, §131¾. It contains weapons determined to have
been originally manufactured for the civilian retail consumer market as large capacity weapons as defined by § 121
of chapter 140. Weapons not listed on this roster may also be large capacity weapons if they are semi-automatic,
and are capable of accepting or readily modifiable to accept a large capacity feeding device.

I think this is why Carl chooses not to sell the ruger 10/22 ???
 
In a "normal state", a question such as "Does the existence of an EOPS list certifying which rifles are high cap protect a dealer selling a gun not on said roster that can accept a > 10 round magazine from prosecution" could be asked, and the AG's office would issue an "official opinion" that would provide a reasonable degree of protection against prosecution - either via statute granting such opinions standing, or by presenting the entrapment by estoppel defense on a gold plated platter.

Unfortunately, MA, does not operate that way. Even the most basic question gets "This office does not provide legal advice to private citizens" (.... except when telling the court why we are prosecuting you). The net effect in the gun business is that loads of dealers, including Four Seasons, are forced to choose between trusting the system will follow the law and not get into "creative charging" or face the prospect of legal fees and risk. Another classic case is the "Frame issue" - transferring stripped frames or receivers for guns not on the approved list, or that are on the approve list and not generally considered AG compliant - once again, totally legal - but you can't get the state to put that in writing.

Four Seasons has made a choice to err on the side of caution, since they are a high volume shop and the owner does not consider it worth the risk.

I would be better for the owner train the staff to tell customers that "while legal, we do not sell this gun to FID holders since the law is ambiguous and we are not able to obtain a written statement from the AGs office confirming that said sale it legal".

Put another way ... If Carl provided you with as contract that stated "I agree to pay all legal fees, without limit, that Four Seasons may incur as a consequence of selling me a Ruger 1022 with an FID" would you sign it? If not, your declining to accept the risk (perceived or real - a matter of opinion on which various persons will disagree) that the dealer will not accept to buy the gun.

I'll bet if you had asked Carl "Can you recommend another shop that will sell me a 1022 with an FID at a good price", he probably would have given you a suggestion or two.
 
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mac1911 said:
This roster has been compiled in accordance with M.G.L. c.140, §131¾. It contains weapons determined to have
been originally manufactured for the civilian retail consumer market as large capacity weapons as defined by § 121
of chapter 140. Weapons not listed on this roster may also be large capacity weapons if they are semi-automatic,
and are capable of accepting or readily modifiable to accept a large capacity feeding device.

I think this is why Carl chooses not to sell the ruger 10/22 ???
Click to expand...

I KNOW why Carl does this. I consider Carl a friend and think that he runs one of the best gun shops in the state. HOWEVER, he has made a business decision NOT based on law/CMR. Read the related CMR and you get a different picture of the above. To wit, using FS logic, they should never sell ANY 1911 to anyone with a LTC-B either. My Wife was ogling a 1911 DRUM MAG at a NH gun show a few years ago, I've seen ~20 rd 1911 stick mags sold at gun shows as well. ANY gun that can accept a mag CAN ACCEPT a large capacity mag . . . that's why EOPS chose to use different words in the CMR to clarify a poorly written law.

Businesses make business decisions and I support that . . . but when they tell customers that something is illegal (or the person could be arrested for possession of a 10/22, 1911, etc.) they are going beyond the bounds and I can NOT support that. As Rob stated, they should merely state that their position is to not sell something due to lack of legal clarity and let it go at that.
 
Maxspeed said:
Get a Class A. Problem solved.
Click to expand...

The OP posted made a reference to being young - he may be under age 21 and not yet have that option.

As Rob stated, they should merely state that their position is to not sell something due to lack of legal clarity and let it go at that.
Click to expand...

This is a case of "something getting lost in the translation". Carl can explain this clearly, however, it sometimes translates to "we don't do it because it's illegal" when his staff explains it. I've emailed Carl suggesting improvements in how the store policy is explained.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
The OP posted made a reference to being young - he may be under age 21 and not yet have that option.
Click to expand...

You are correct Rob, unfortunately I am only 20 so an LTC is not an option for the time being. I do agree that FS is a good shop with some low prices on certain firearms, and I completely understand their decision to not take the risk of selling me a 10/22. What I am NOT okay with is their claim that it is not legal to own with an FID card, as well as their claim that the SKS can be considered high-capacity.

If I hadn't already done my own research on the SKS, I would have probably been pretty worried about owning an illegal firearm when they told me this. I did not mean for this to start a debate on what is legal and what is not, I was just giving my opinion of FS based on my poor experience with them.
 
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I called FS on Wednesday looking for a S&W 686 4" 6 rounds and they told me they were all out, but to call back in a couple days. Yesterday, I stopped by the store to follow up. For some reason Friday at 11:30 was a zoo! Even with the notable crowd, I was able to get service and not feel pressure to get looking at anything.

Still no S&W 686 4" 6 round in the case so I fondled a used 686 SSR, but wasnt sold on the price with some notable wear. I talked to the guy (sorry I forget his name) and settled on ordering the 686. The guy went in the back to get the paperwork and came back with the exact 686 I was looking for! Needless to say I was fairly happy... There was a bit of a delay on the processing as there were 3-4 people ahead of me but I ended up picking up some ammo and accessories while I waited to be processed. Overall, I was in and out in about an hour even with the busyness. As previously mentioned ammo prices are a bit high, but a great shop. A very pleasant first gun purchase from FS!

Pics to be posted under July acquisitions shortly. [smile]
 
Took the drive out yesterday with every intention of just browsing at the different 1911 models to get an idea of what I wanted. Really should have left my wallet at home! Walked out with a S&W E-series 1911 at a great price. I do feel like I cheated on my local shop, sorry Marc.
Sadly one of the reasons I made the trip was to pick up a NES decal and they were all out [sad]
 
OK I'll add my Four Seasons story, finally !!!

I was at Greg Derrs having him do some touch ups on two of the trigger jobs he did for me. I said to him that I had to swing by Cabela's to pick up more ammo. He looked at me and said why Cabela's, I told him that it was the closest place to me were I could get bulk ammo at a good price, he said well your heading back that way any way to head home (Western Mass) why not just stop at FS's. I just said "that sounds good, I've wanted to go there for awhile anyway".

Well I'm glad I did, I bought a bunch of ammo and a few other goodies, the guys were great even though it was a Saturday afternoon and they were busy, I thought real busy and the guys just laughed and said "na this is slow right now, your lucky". I paid for my ammo and Carl himself (I didn't know that at the time) rang me up and saw that I walk using a cane and just grabed my cases and said "OK lets go too your vehicle", I thanked him when I got the things I bought into my vehicle and we ended up just BSing in the parking lot for 5 or 10 minutes. I went back in with him so I could then spend some time checking his store out and seeing the goodies he has in there.

I ended up buying alittle more ammo plus some other goodies. After looking at a bunch of guns and just general BSing with the staff I ended up leaving the store a few hours latter, but not before Carl came back to me and thanked me plus shook my hand for making the long drive to shop at his store.

So from now on when I am thinking of buying any thing gun related I'm going to think 1st about going to FS's.


.


Come to think of it I did want to replace my Ruger 22/45 with one of the newer Ruger 22/45's with the replaceable grip panels and I remember handling a few of them there that were priced OK and they did say they would take mine in trade, HHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM


It may be time for a road trip again soon [thumbsup] [banana] [thumbsup]



.
 
drgrant said:
In this particular case FS (and other stores) have made a "policy decision" of not selling 10/22s to FID holders. There are plenty of other stores that will, in MA, and NH. Just because stores have a policy of not doing it doesn't mean it's against the law.
-Mike
Click to expand...


I'm not sure if they are still following that "policy decision" or not as I couldn't see the peoples license's. All I can say is the couple of hours that I was at the store this past Saturday (July 30 / 11) there was a bunch of Ruger 10/22's walking out the door.

They have a "package deal" going on where you can get the gun, sight, ammo, soft case and I think a few more things as that "package deal" and boy they were selling a bunch of them while I was there.
 
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I picked up one of the Mosin 91/30's they had on special last week, another great experience. The kid behind the counter was extremely helpful and even provided me with some history on the gun while we were waiting for everything to go through. Well worth the drive!
 
DavidC77 said:
OK I'll add my Four Seasons story, finally !!!

I was at Greg Derrs having him do some touch ups on two of the trigger jobs he did for me. I said to him that I had to swing by Cabela's to pick up more ammo. He looked at me and said why Cabela's, I told him that it was the closest place to me were I could get bulk ammo at a good price, he said well your heading back that way any way to head home (Western Mass) why not just stop at FS's. I just said "that sounds good, I've wanted to go there for awhile anyway".

Well I'm glad I did, I bought a bunch of ammo and a few other goodies, the guys were great even though it was a Saturday afternoon and they were busy, I thought real busy and the guys just laughed and said "na this is slow right now, your lucky". I paid for my ammo and Carl himself (I didn't know that at the time) rang me up and saw that I walk using a cane and just grabed my cases and said "OK lets go too your vehicle", I thanked him when I got the things I bought into my vehicle and we ended up just BSing in the parking lot for 5 or 10 minutes. I went back in with him so I could then spend some time checking his store out and seeing the goodies he has in there.

I ended up buying alittle more ammo plus some other goodies. After looking at a bunch of guns and just general BSing with the staff I ended up leaving the store a few hours latter, but not before Carl came back to me and thanked me plus shook my hand for making the long drive to shop at his store.

So from now on when I am thinking of buying any thing gun related I'm going to think 1st about going to FS's.


.


Come to think of it I did want to replace my Ruger 22/45 with one of the newer Ruger 22/45's with the replaceable grip panels and I remember handling a few of them there that were priced OK and they did say they would take mine in trade, HHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM


It may be time for a road trip again soon [thumbsup] [banana] [thumbsup]



.
Click to expand...


Carl is a class act. A gentleman.
 
DavidC77 said:
I'm not sure if they are still following that "policy decision" or not as I couldn't see the peoples license's. All I can say is the couple of hours that I was at the store this past Saturday (July 30 / 11) there was a bunch of Ruger 10/22's walking out the door.
Click to expand...

To my knowledge they still do, but to be honest in the majority of cases it's a non-issue because most gun buyers in MA have an LTC-A or at worst a B.

There are really only a minority of people in MA that are stuck with only an FID, and most of those folks are under 21, or are doing the chemical only thing.

This isn't a bash against FS. A lot of shops in MA (and NH, for that matter) have similar policies about what FID holders can buy. If I was to "black cross" every shop off that had differing interpretations about what FID holders can buy, a ton of shops in MA would be missing from my list of favorites. I can't hold it against them if they simply don't want to deal
with having to interpret a crappy, poorly written set of laws at the edges of the limits.

-Mike
 
I can't hold it against them if they simply don't want to deal with having to interpret a crappy, poorly written set of laws at the edges of the limits.
Click to expand...

Add to that a state attorney general's office that will not issue clarifying opinions regarding MGLs and CMRs when asked.

In many states, issuing "official opinions" regarding potentially confusing laws is part of the AG's job. In MA, the AG's office refuses to do so - basically saying "the only time you will know what we thing that law/reg means is when we prosecute you".
 
A friend of mine and I went in on Saturday the 30th and the place was PACKED. We were inside for all of about 1 or 2 min and had someone ask us if we needed help. We both went in knowing fully what we wanted to buy. The kid that was working with us was knowledgeable and very nice. He didnt have a problem pulling something out from the case to let us hold it. We were in and out in about an hour and we both purchased our first guns and some ammo. Great experience for both of us. We both went to MFS for our safety class and got the $25 coupon. I brought mine with me, my friend forgot his. The salesmen didnt have a problem giving my friend the credit for the coupon. Little stuff like that really makes me like a place. I will be back in the future for more purchases.
 
Great place, bought my Ruger SR40 here on recommendation from one of the guys. I really like it so far. I'm hoping to go in this weekend and get a 22 pistol, but we'll see what happens.
 
My daughter and I landed @ FS just before 8:00 AM. The parking lot was pretty full. We were the first people that had to wait in the hall. We were deli #51. Gerry Mahoney drew our number at 8:25 AM. We were picking up a Walther PPK/380 with the Crimson Trace Grip that I had ordered. We grabbed some ammo, pepper spray, safe's & a holster too. Handed them ten $100's and they gave me back $1.13, just like MacDonalds. When we left at about 9:40 AM the store was packed. Between the store, hallway & parking lot I'd guess there were 150-200 people there.
 

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rudiewhitebwoy said:
My daughter and I landed @ FS just before 8:00 AM. The parking lot was pretty full. We were the first people that had to wait in the hall. We were deli #51. Gerry Mahoney drew our number at 8:25 AM. We were picking up a Walther PPK/380 with the Crimson Trace Grip that I had ordered. We grabbed some ammo, pepper spray, safe's & a holster too. Handed them ten $100's and they gave me back $1.13, just like MacDonalds. When we left at about 9:40 AM the store was packed. Between the store, hallway & parking lot I'd guess there were 150-200 people there.
Click to expand...

No thanks

Not after seeing those pictures. I would rather pay 60 bucks in sales tax then wait it that type of line
 
This is why we need the one-gun/month bill to pass. Just look at all those gun nuts in the pic. Boston will never be safe now and the Governor is to blame for not adding guns to the list of items that will be taxed today. Shame on him.
 

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