Kalashnikov Buy

[Mark from MA]

First off...I hate the "which gun should I buy" threads......but I'm confused by all the variants out there. Wasrs, Norico's, arsenal's, I.O.'s,

Did a lot of research and lots of conflicting thoughts...on poor riveting...loose mag wells...etc. I know everyone has lemons out there. And I'm gonna check that stuff before I buy.

Basically this is a SHTF gun for me.....don't care as long as it's reliable. I'm leaning towards the WASR right now....any one vouch for it?

 

[pj150]

The WASR should suit just fine. It is because of the loose tolerances, the rifle will fire under most extreme conditions. If you can get past the canted sights and wobble in the mag well (Not prevalent on all of them and easy to check) Everything else should work as intended. It'll be accurate enough for any SHTF situation.

 

[flintoid]

7.62x39 rifles and their inherent accuracy depends on a very minor few things: whether the barrel is chrome lined or not, rifling condition, then barrel length (if it's too short), and whether there's a bipod on the end of your gun.

Any AK variant is going to have your typical 16" barrel length, unless you're talking about the AMD65, a krinkov variant, or a AK pistol. So this is of no worry to you.

Any AK variant is going to have your typical chrome lined barrel unless it's a "true" yugoslav variant, which doesn't have chrome lining because Chromium is as rare as hot women in their home country. A non-lined barrel is more accurate because it grabs the bullet better. It is also harder to clean and will wear out quicker over it's lifespan of use (if you actually shoot it, that is).

If you have a RPK, you need to check if it's a parts kit gun. If it is, it could have a blown out barrel. Also, if it's got a bipod, the harmonics of the barrel is going to be funky.


Poor riveting comes from bargain builds. Century is known for it (in the past), and recently Lancaster built AKs have had a very terrible reputation for rivet failure, or FTF. Stay away from Lancasters at the very least until they get their shit together.

Century Arms has kind of cleaned up their act. They may still put together one of the ugliest AKs on the face of the planet, but at least it's probably going to fire. Or you could vie for a Cugir, Romania built WASR instead of a cobbled together parts kit on a Cugir WASR receiver.

Poor magazine fitting is due to the nature of a WASR- their receivers have "magazine plates" that are welded into the receiver, unlike your "true to design" AK magazine dimples that are formed in the receiver. This really isn't an issue unless you're a purist or a snob. But you are buying an AK, so if you're acting like a snob, you're smoking something pretty good or have a few screws loose in your head.

If you wanted to go for a gun that actually will have a high resale value down the road, buy a Arsenal rifle and get it neutered. Their rifles only get more expensive as time goes on and their models get discontinued. It's more of an investment, and it's one of the finer AKs you can buy.

Or you could build your own or convert a Saiga, blah blah blah

 

[endus]

If you wanted to go for a gun that actually will have a high resale value down the road, buy a Arsenal rifle and get it neutered. Their rifles only get more expensive as time goes on and their models get discontinued. It's more of an investment, and it's one of the finer AKs you can buy.

So the Arsenal guns are new AK's, not remanufactured old Izhmash manufactured stuff? And neutering it would be a result of it being post ban. Sorry if this is a dumb question I am just starting to research this. I would like to own an AK for the rifle, but want an Izhmash manufactured one for the coolness factor and historical aspect.

I'm reading about this a bit and it sounds like older Russian manufactured AK's are difficult to impossible to get in the states? I am kind of surprised that someone hasn't decided to pick up a ton of old (and preban!) Russian stock and remanufacture those. Wouldn't that be the cheapest and easiest route? Or would making those legal for the US be prohibitively difficult/expensive?

Don't mean to jack the thread but it seemed an opportune time to ask. And...yes...I did just finish reading "The Gun" and that's why I am so interested in Izhmash manufactured AK's.

EDIT: And also, is anyone aware of where one could easily get such an AK neutered for MA? I am extremely intrigued by this idea. Owning an AK was somewhat cool but actually getting a Russian one gives it a whole new awesomeness that really intrigues me.

EDIT2: And also also...whats the availability of preban 30 round mags for such a gun?

 

[drgrant]

So the Arsenal guns are new AK's, not remanufactured old Izhmash manufactured stuff? And neutering it would be a result of it being post ban. Sorry if this is a dumb question I am just starting to research this. I would like to own an AK for the rifle, but want an Izhmash manufactured one for the coolness factor and historical aspect.

I'm reading about this a bit and it sounds like older Russian manufactured AK's are difficult to impossible to get in the states? I am kind of surprised that someone hasn't decided to pick up a ton of old (and preban!) Russian stock and remanufacture those. Wouldn't that be the cheapest and easiest route? Or would making those legal for the US be prohibitively difficult/expensive?

Thanks to george bush sr. rubber stamping the protectionist bulls**t USC 922R, no 100% foreign AKs, even semis, can be legally imported into the US. Basically, nearly every AK you see in the US is at least partially made here to get around the parts count problem. Usually a company will import receivers or russian/romanian "sporting guns" and convert them into US legal AKs by adding the correct amount of US parts. It's all a big shell game, basically. It's also part of the reason why something like a POS wasr costs $400 instead of the $100-$200 or so it probably should really cost. (As an example, look at what a 7.62 x 39 unconverted Saiga costs... no decent semiautomatic AK should really cost more than whatever those sell for. )

The closest thing to a real russian AK is getting a saiga and converting it, or paying someone else to convert it. Your gun will still have US parts on it at the end, though.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

EDIT2: And also also...whats the availability of preban 30 round mags for such a gun?

Preban AK mags basically grow on trees. Any gunshow, might be able to find them for like $11 a pop if you're willing to accept beat up ones.... sometimes $15 or $20 for new old stock ones.

-Mike

 

[jasons]

Preban AK mags basically grow on trees.

That's my kind of Christmas tree!

 

[endus]

Beautiful, thanks much for the info dgrant! I think I had actually read about the parts count thing, but forgot. Makes "sense" in the sense that I now understand the legality...doesn't make sense in that the law is completely asinine and nonsensical.

 

[flintoid]

another "blockade" to the dream of owning a true Russian AK is the stupid as hell "arms treaty" that Russia and the US have with eachother. It's why SVD rifles are so limited here - they got "listed" as a military firearm. It was called the Voluntary Restraint Agreement of small arms, or something like that.

it was ammended to allow old soviet republics to sell to us by the following:

T.D. ATF-393
Removal of Restrictions on Importation of Defense Articles From Specified New Independent States of the Former Soviet Union and Yugoslavia and To Amend the Term "Military Firearms and Ammunition''

http://www.ttb.gov/rrd/tdatf6.htm

THIS is why the only "true" russian AKM receiver you can get in the states is a Saiga: Saigas are built with the intention of selling to russian civilians. If it was used by their military? You wouldn't be able to use it.

And this GD treaty is exactly why getting soviet parts kits into the United States is as difficult as it is. Because it's illegal to import them.

 

[endus]

Nice. Super that we can buy hundreds of thousands of them to hand out to various 'friendly'(?) factions around the world, who will be shooting them back at us a decade later, but god forbid legitimate US citizens get a hold of them because of a relatively benign interest in historic firearms...

Maybe I'll just buy a WASR.

 

[flintoid]

Maybe I'll just buy a WASR.

I doubt you'll hear much complaining from their owners. A reliable, good functioning AKM. It's not going to win any beauty contests, but it's also not going to break your bank, either.

 

[endus]

Yea, I was searching around here today and it seems like they are really pretty reliable. Wikipedia said some of them don't take the 30 round mags though? I'll have to find out more about that. But yea, doesn't sound like there is too much bad to say about them.

I want the AK to be a little gritty lookin anyway. I like the darker wood stock too.

Cheap's good too...I have no money for this bullshit right now!

 

[Mark from MA]

Yea, I was searching around here today and it seems like they are really pretty reliable. Wikipedia said some of them don't take the 30 round mags though? I'll have to find out more about that. But yea, doesn't sound like there is too much bad to say about them.

I want the AK to be a little gritty lookin anyway. I like the darker wood stock too.

Cheap's good too...I have no money for this bullshit right now!

Only the "low cap" model will not take the 30 rounders. I saw one of those in a gun shop the other day and have no idea why anyone would buy it.
The mag well is smaller and will not accept double stacks.

For the money the AK's are a POS. But with all the BS laws that Bush and others introduced...that's where prices have gone. It pains me to pay the same kind of money I'd pay for a nice hunting rifle... for a stamped steel throw together barely finished, sights tilted, barrel canted POS that should cost 100 bucks. But I guess if the SHTF...that's what I'd want in my hands, as long as it's reliable. And mags are easy to find and cheap.

Guess the WASR is what I'll be looking for....

 

[luceri]

I think the price difference for a Norinco is worth it over the WASR. I'm kind of a perfectionist though -- not a huge fan of AKs generally due to the inherent nature that they're not exactly designed for precision. A WASR would be a lot of fun if bang for the buck is your thing I suppose. I missed the memo for when these were considered good solid rifles though without significant modifications.

 

[glostamon]

Only the "low cap" model will not take the 30 rounders. I saw one of those in a gun shop the other day and have no idea why anyone would buy it.
The mag well is smaller and will not accept double stacks.

Some individuals with a LTC-B or FID might own an AK variant ?

For the money the AK's are a POS. But with all the BS laws that Bush and others introduced...that's where prices have gone. It pains me to pay the same kind of money I'd pay for a nice hunting rifle... for a stamped steel throw together barely finished, sights tilted, barrel canted POS that should cost 100 bucks. But I guess if the SHTF...that's what I'd want in my hands, as long as it's reliable. And mags are easy to find and cheap.

Guess the WASR is what I'll be looking for....

Converting a Saiga or a AKM build can be done for not much more money than a MA. priced new WASR-10.

Expensive rifles will become safe queens WSHTF,whereas the AK being such a POS will become glorious.

 

[SKS Ray]

Its actually cheaper in most cases to buy a WASR than a Saiga and the parts to convert it.

There are some diamonds in the rough regarding WASR AK types. A friend of mine has one that is solid and very accurate at 100 yards. My advice is look carefully at the rifle, especially the sight picture from a shooter position and look at the sights from the muzzle end. If they seem to tilt to one side, look for another until you find one thats got the sights lined up straight.

Clean it and put a few hundred rounds through it to get used to how it shoots, then put it away for when and if SHTF.

 

[Mark from MA]

Some individuals with a LTC-B or FID might own an AK variant ?



Converting a Saiga or a AKM build can be done for not much more money than a MA. priced new WASR-10.

Expensive rifles will become safe queens WSHTF,whereas the AK being such a POS will become glorious.

Oh...there's no doubt...if SHTF....a 400 dollar AK with ammo becomes priceless really fast!

 

[Trupo]

First off...I hate the "which gun should I buy" threads......but I'm confused by all the variants out there. Wasrs, Norico's, arsenal's, I.O.'s,

Did a lot of research and lots of conflicting thoughts...on poor riveting...loose mag wells...etc. I know everyone has lemons out there. And I'm gonna check that stuff before I buy.

Basically this is a SHTF gun for me.....don't care as long as it's reliable. I'm leaning towards the WASR right now....any one vouch for it?

Depending on how much you intend to spend and if this is going to be your one and only AK, you may want to spend the money on a preban (pre-89') AK variant, just a thought. As far as the WASR goes, there are two grades of them out there, once you've looked at a few you should be able to tell the difference. The poorer ones are identifiable by a front sight post that may be canted off to one side, sloppy welding at the base of the muzzle nut, and (for lack of a better term) crappy engraving/stamping of the model name/number on the receiver.

WRT loose magwells, don't give them a 2nd thought. It's part of the loose tolerance design, my Polytech Legend has a loose magwell for chrissakes...

Preban AK mags basically grow on trees. Any gunshow, might be able to find them for like $11 a pop if you're willing to accept beat up ones.... sometimes $15 or $20 for new old stock ones.

-Mike

Even the beat up ones keep on working just fine, one definite advantage to the AK platform (...and no, I'm not trying to derail this thread into an AK vs. AR d!ck slamming contest) is the mags. To use a phrase from a gunsmith I was talking to one day about these, "they (the commies) build the sh!t out of them". I have a 20mm ammo can full of preban AK mags manufactured from a bunch of different countries, even the poorest overall quality ones run great.

...Maybe I'll just buy a WASR.

If you're just looking for a (relatively) cheap AK blaster that'll be fine. Like I said, there are two grades of WASR's, keep an eye out for a good one and grab it.

I doubt you'll hear much complaining from their owners. A reliable, good functioning AKM. It's not going to win any beauty contests, but it's also not going to break your bank, either.

That's what I like about mine, it's ugly. I have pretty (read: nicely finished) AK's as well, the WASR fills it's own niche.

I think the price difference for a Norinco is worth it over the WASR. I'm kind of a perfectionist though -- not a huge fan of AKs generally due to the inherent nature that they're not exactly designed for precision. A WASR would be a lot of fun if bang for the buck is your thing I suppose. I missed the memo for when these were considered good solid rifles though without significant modifications.

Yeah, I guess you did. Mine is just fine, and I'm comparing that to a host of other 100% indigenous pre-89' AK's. Like I said, there are two grades of WASR's, if you get a good one, it's well worth the money.

 

[luceri]

Yeah, I guess you did. Mine is just fine, and I'm comparing that to a host of other 100% indigenous pre-89' AK's. Like I said, there are two grades of WASR's, if you get a good one, it's well worth the money.

I'll have to try to get my hands on one of these to try out -- every time I've shot a WASR I've ended up extremely disappointed but figured you got what you paid for. I'm not sure I know anyone with one of the higher grade WASR's you mention or if I've only shot the low grade ones -- regardless it would be one hell of a rifle for the price if it can compare to even an average Norinco or similar.

The QC on pre-ban AK's is frustrating from the consumer standpoint lol.

 

[Trupo]

I'll have to try to get my hands on one of these to try out -- every time I've shot a WASR I've ended up extremely disappointed but figured you got what you paid for. I'm not sure I know anyone with one of the higher grade WASR's you mention or if I've only shot the low grade ones -- regardless it would be one hell of a rifle for the price if it can compare to even an average Norinco or similar.

The QC on pre-ban AK's is frustrating from the consumer standpoint lol.

Well, if you're ever going to be shooting at the Braintree R&P Club, shoot me a PM in advance. If I'm available I will bring my WASR and a Hungarian SA-85M for you to compare & put a few rounds down range. No doubt the SA-85M is nicer, but for a cheap blaster, a good WASR (10/63) is just fine.

 

[pj150]

I have a MAADI AKM and just got a Norinco MAK90.

Just by the feel, I like the Norinco as it feels a bit more solid due to the thicker receiver and barrel.

The Maadi has more of the authentic AK look.

I'll have a better comparison soon with a range report if you are interested.

 

[flintoid]

1.6mm vs the typical 1.0mm thickness. And what you're feeling is the increased weight

A wise man once told me that the best knock off product out of China is their AKM rifle.

And that Maadi probably looks authentic because it was made with Russian tools.

 

[SKS Ray]

The Maadi is about as close as you are going to get to a vintage Russian AK47.

If the Mak 90 is a milled receiver model, its going to have a totally different feel to it when handling and shooting it compared to a stamped receiver model.

 

[Mark from MA]

I have a MAADI AKM and just got a Norinco MAK90.

Just by the feel, I like the Norinco as it feels a bit more solid due to the thicker receiver and barrel.

The Maadi has more of the authentic AK look.

I'll have a better comparison soon with a range report if you are interested.

Would love to hear the range report and comparisions.....

I'm about to grab a WASR 10......

I've been looking at I.O. AK's but man...I know they are supposedly made in the USA and would love to buy it.... but I just don't like the looks of their riveting and stuff, and there barrels and sights look canted as hell. I'm also not big on the plastic.....

The only thing I like about them is the dimpled reciever....mags are tight in it....

 

[endus]

Shot a WASR 10 in Attleboro today and MAN what an incredible piece of shit that rifle looks like. Shoots just fine though. First one I shot, I like the M43 round.

I can certainly see how those Romanian rifles can be reliable in the sense that AK's are legendary for reliability. Thing was loose as a goose. I also see why people buy them as the SHTF guns more than "just to own them". It's not really a nice enough package to appreciate on it's own merits....definitely nothing you would be too worried about dragging through the mud and picking off zombies with.

Id like one that looked a little bit better than that. Went to a couple shops and saw some of the Izhmash manufactured Saiga ones. Definitely way nicer. Converting one of those might actually be a better look. I want the wood furniture though.

I'm just gonna keep lookin around and handling various ones and see what comes my way.

 

[20thpzgr]

I bought a Sar 1 many years ago, shoot it constantly, clean it every couple of thousand rounds when I get to it, it has NEVER jammed, misfired, etc. Having said that, my choice if you can find one is an Arsenal milled Bulgarian. I have their SSR99 and as AK's go, its a beauty, shoots better and is a superior construction.

 

[richgetsy]

I have a Russian Saiga Legion Izhmash AK 103. Nice finish, great gun. Done by AK-USA, Chris Butler.

 

[endus]

^^^ That's nice. So that will take the large capacity mags now? I'm thinking the Saiga -> conversion might be the route I take. Get that gun and then get some replica wood furniture that's all the right color and etc. Might be the best mix of authenticity and functionality.

EDIT: Ahh I see on their site now, they have all the features described. I'll have to see what the cost on this might be, but I think we may have a winner.

 

[CLMN]

I have a Russian Saiga Legion Izhmash AK 103. Nice finish, great gun. Done by AK-USA, Chris Butler.

Wow! Very nice!!!

CLMN

 

[luceri]

richgetsy: That thing looks nice -- what kind of accuracy do you get out of it? In particlar around the 200-300y range?