Long Range Deer Shooting.... Hmmm...

[Wingwiper]

Jose

Damn guy, this debate is not about how much I know about Waterfowl, get back on topic, it is about ETHICS and the Sport you and I love, HUNTING. Gun Rights have EVERYTHING to do with Hunting, no guns you will be defending Bow and Arrow Rights.
I am not lecturing you, you can leave this decussion anytime you want, you chose to come and post.


Dixi,
sorry, most Duck and Geese Hunters (in Vermont) call them over water and they have special John Boats all Camoflauged etc, they hide in the Cattails. We have Dog Training Schools where dogs are trained to get in the water and fetch the birds. Most is NOT all. Like my quote from the website said, things vary from state to state. Now take the time and go to the website and read it. You will be gald you did.

 

[Wingwiper]

Some record books do not recognize trophies taken behind a high fence. Others do. Some recognize exotic species of big game. Others recognize only native North American species. Some accept both. Some record African and European trophies. Regardless of the rules for entry into these record books, they are more than just a listing of trophies and hunters' names. They are, by and large, history books on big game hunting. They are also biological records used by game and habitat managers to track the success or failure of game management programs and policies. They are also engaging. With an interest in mature, trophy game comes an increased awareness about conservation, and stewardship, and badly needed funding to support management and enhancement of specific species. But, more importantly, these records reflect the successful hard work and dedication of those responsible for wildlife resources - game managers, biologists, lawmakers, private land stewards, conservationists, and, perhaps most important you, the sportsman.

SOme record books DON"t because of their idea of ETHICs in the taking of the animal.

 

[Wingwiper]

LEGAL VERSUS ETHICAL
Hunting is an intensely personal experience fraught with personal choices. Consider the contrast between what is legal and what is ethical. It is difficult to conceive of a situation in hunting where the commission of an illegal act could be considered ethical. But, the inverse is not only possible, but also common. In short, legality describes the outside boundaries within which ethical choices are made.

For example, some hunters take shots at deer in excess of 300 yards. They have rifles and ammunition capable of accuracy at such ranges. They practice at those ranges and are capable and confident of almost certain clean kills. Other hunters would never think of taking a shot at this distance. It's legal. There is nothing in the game regulations about maximum allowable distances yet many will not take that shot. Why? Some do not have experience with this type of shooting. Others feel the risk is too high for wounding and therefore the practice is unethical. Others might consider that shooting at such ranges, even with a high probability of success, is simply too great an advantage over the prey and would choose to stalk in closer.

The point is, there are many things in the hunting and habitat management world that are legal, yet can be considered by some to be unethical. Again, it is left for each individual to set his or her own ethical standards. Hopefully, all of our collective decisions will shine positively on hunting, management and its traditions.

Remington, Nossler, Ducks Unlimited and so many others Sponsor this site

 

[Wingwiper]

Dirtypacman

Wish you would have quoted that to start wingwiper as your previous posts went on and on with this summary being your best attempt of making a valid point.

You could have jumped in and helped anytime........

 

[Jose]

Jose

Damn guy, this debate is not about how much I know about Waterfowl, get back on topic, it is about ETHICS and the Sport you and I love, HUNTING. .

Your knowledge of hunting customs and ethics IS an issue. Some of the practices that you condemn as unethical in your own state are widely practiced by sportsmen and licensed guides. I guess they are all wrong and you are right?

I'm done with this, as you apparently refuse to even see the evidence that is right in front of you.

 

[Wingwiper]

Jose

All you had to do was go to the site and read, it wasn't about how much I know about Duck Hunting or Goose Hunting it was ONLY about Ethics.
Think! Kansas is a very big and mostly dry state. In the areas and there are plenty where there is NO water body near by, they may very well hunt in fields. That is the accepted practice. In areas where there is Water bodies, the practice could be very different.

 

[sksguns]

What?!?!?!?!?!

I didn't know you could go to Shaws and pick up a fresh Pheasant or Grouse.

That was a pretty bold and over the top statement. What about family tradition and taking your son out to shoot his first duck or teaching him about wildlife conservation? I guess I'm just a cold blooded killer because I don't hunt for wildlife management. I hunt because the shit tastes good and I have a blast doing it.

I don't know about shaws but I know Roche Brothers sells pheasant and buffalo and other not so common meats once in a while....


I have no problem with any hunter going out and passing that tradition along.

I've been to plenty of game suppers at my club although a lot of stuff is donated by hunters a lot of the stuff is store bought.

 

[Wingwiper]

WORTH READING

DIVIDED WE FALL
Hunting is a personal experience filled with personal choices taking place in many areas with varying traditions and rules. The concept of "fair chase" is a noble one and something that is meant to be a unifying, governing force. The concept was not created as a test to divide ethical hunters.

One of the reasons why our wildlife and habitat conservation system works is because individual states regulate what goes on within that state. Can you imagine the train wreck that would occur if the same rules applied for all states regardless of traditions, the diverse species of game, and various habitats found in different regions? Deer hunting with a crossbows is legal in Ohio, but not in some other states. Baiting deer is legal in some states, yet frowned upon by hunters in other states. You can run bear and cougar with hounds in some western states, but only spot and stalk hunt in others. Steel shot, lead shot, plugged shotguns, expandable broadheads, inline muzzleloaders - the list goes on and on. The bottom line - we are too small of a group not to support each other. If you hunt, you belong to a fraternity. If a hunting method is legal in another state, but not in your state, crying foul won't help the bigger picture. If a way of hunting is under attack in another state, your way is under attack, even if you do not agree with or practice this method.

 

[Admin]

sks,

It's the whole process of hunting. Preping your gear the night before.
Getting up early. Grabbing the dog. Heading out to the field. Walking the field for birds. And lastly making the shots to take a couple down. Nothing is better than Fresh Phesant or Grouse. It is just and enjoyable sport and if you're lucky it's rewarding.

Granted in some areas hunting is very much needed to curb populations that have few or no natural predators. In MA pheasants are stocked stricktly for guys like me to track them down, shoot them, and eat them. However I haven't been too lucky lately.

 

[Dirtypacman]

Dirtypacman



You could have jumped in and helped anytime........

Honestly since I do not hunt myself I don't think I could add much to this thread.

One thing I can say as others have posted already:

This ethics issue should not be a divider as we all have a common passion which is firearms.. though we have varying opinions on whats right, wrong, or indifferent we all need each others support for the common cause.

 

[sksguns]

sks,

It's the whole process of hunting. Preping your gear the night before.
Getting up early. Grabbing the dog. Heading out to the field. Walking the field for birds. And lastly making the shots to take a couple down. Nothing is better than Fresh Phesant or Grouse. It is just and enjoyable sport and if you're lucky it's rewarding.

Granted in some areas hunting is very much needed to curb populations that have few or no natural predators. In MA pheasants are stocked stricktly for guys like me to track them down, shoot them, and eat them. However I haven't been too lucky lately.

Hi Derek,
I understand. I have my rituals about fishing too. But I don't think the fish or the deer or the pheasant really care how far away a hunter is. That was my biggest point. I'm sure the creature would prefer not to die. But given that and aside from why people hunt I don't think there is a real need. I want to hunt some day but I have a lot to learn about it.

I'm all for any hunter hunting anything he/she wants. But you can get a lot of the stuff at the store. Liek turkeys...yes they are farm raised but people still like to hunt the wild turkey (not the drink). I have no issue with that.

But I don't put down a person's method. If I like black powder and you like archery or high power so be it. Good luck to us all.

Totally enjoy the sport and the thrill and the kill. All for it....for all methods.

Just be safe, like we should all be with anything we do.

 

[Wingwiper]

Dirtypacman

You said it better in ONE Paragraph than I have been able to do in 10 pages. Good Job.

 

[Wingwiper]

Jose

Some of the practices that you condemn as unethical in your own state are widely practiced by sportsmen and licensed guides. I guess they are all wrong and you are right?

I'm done with this, as you apparently refuse to even see the evidence that is right in front of you.

What practices have I condemned as unethical are so widely practiced? What evidence have you put in front of me? Have you read anything that I have written? all of it? I have Hunted in Colorado with a guide and I'll tell you what, there is where you will find ETHICs. Guides ain't cheap and either are the ELK permits, but you best walk the straight and narrow or you will never be allowed back.

I was not putting hunters in the same category as what I refered to, I was giving examples of POOR ethics in hunting and how farmers have posted their land because of it. I feel you all have only read pieces of what I have written and drawn invalid conclusions because of it. I have hunted fowl and have several friends who are very avid Waterfowl hunters and they all hunt over water. I have seen only ONE field blind in my entire life. That is Vermont and Vermont offers alot of different types of hunting and different types of enviroments.
I have been to Kansas and I know what Kansas is like and don't make my statements over ignorance. Ethics are not LAWS they are what Hunters expect from other Hunters.
Go to the websites and read. baiting is ILLEGAL in many states and in other states legal. I never argued that.
Respect and Pride goes along way, both on the Ranges and in the Woods.

 

[dixidawg]

Dixi,
sorry, most Duck and Geese Hunters (in Vermont) call them over water and they have special John Boats all Camoflauged etc, they hide in the Cattails. We have Dog Training Schools where dogs are trained to get in the water and fetch the birds. Most is NOT all. Like my quote from the website said, things vary from state to state. Now take the time and go to the website and read it. You will be gald you did.

Sorry man, but I have to respectfully disagree on this one.

Ducks, yes. Mostly hunted over water.

Geese, almost always in fields, even in VT.

"We have Dog Training Schools where dogs are trained to get in the water and fetch the birds"

Retrievers are trained and then formally tested by various organizations (AKC, HRC, NAHRA, etc). The tests are construed as a "typical day afield" in whatever region the test is held in. The tests consists of an equal number of retrieves on both land and also in water. The dogs are evaluated equally on their abilities on land and in water. I spend a LOT of time training my retrievers.

The yellow girl in my avatar and my younger chocolate female lab have both been successfully campaigned over the years across New England, including passing several hunt tests put on by the LCRC (Lake Champlain Retriever Club) in Addison County. I know quite a few folks from VT that are really into waterfowl hunting and putting their dog's training to good use. The first time I was at a test in Addison county I was amazed by all the pasture land. When I asked some of the folks about it, they just smile and say welcome to heaven! Most of the hardcore GOOSE hunters hunt those fields hard.. Not to say they don't also hunt waterways, but they really concentrate on the fields for geese. The hunt tests that LCRC put on mimic that. For their field retrieve series, they use fields with goose decoys, blinds, etc. The idea is to replicate a typical day afield. In the field

Anyway,,,,sorry to ramble on. I think I understand your position and totally respect it. My only issue was that I think in your passion to make your point, you may have "overstated" a few things. But those things are what make threads like this worth reading.

BTW, I'd like to share a blind with you some time. I'm not too old to learn something new! Show me how to hunt geese over water!

Bob

 

[Wingwiper]

dixidawg

Thanks for the respectful post.

I drive by many large fields to work each day (Addison & Rutland County in the Eastern Champlain Valley) and see literally thousands of Canadian Geese and Snow geese. There are NO Hunters and No Blinds to be seen and I can take you along the shores of Lake Champlain from Swanton down to Poultney and I can show you blind after blind and they are used for Geese and Duck. I can take you less than a mile from home to a Mountain Lake and I can show you blinds and introduce you to some fellas who get their bag in Geese and Duck there all of the time. I do not know every single hunter and been hunting Geese and Ducks only a few times. The Guys I know and have hunted with are very deeply involved and have pick up truck loads of decoys that they spend weeks painting and carving some are the cheaper Cabella types. I have no clue how much time or money is spent on their dogs and each time I have hunted with them, I have gotten ears full of ethics and what is the proper and right way to hunt them etc etc. I talk to them and drink with them far more than I hunt with them. I don't claim to be a Great Duck or Goose hunter any more than I claim to be a Great pistol Shot. I have known a fair share of these Old timers and enjoy hunting with them and just talking with them and not a single one of them would even consider shooting a Goose in a field. As I said "NONE I KNOW". I had a fairly good size boat and spent 15 years fishing Lake Champlain and can't even begin to tell you how many blinds I have seen. During the seasons, there are John Boats of every level of camoflauge and configuration that goes by. During the migrations you can see them all over the Wooded and not so populated lakes. Just a couple of years ago, the State had a controlled hunt for massive amounts of Snow geese for they were just over populating areas in the Northern part of the State and they promoted Field Killing to get as many as possible and as quickly as possible. Special Permits were issued for this Mass Controlled Killing.
So if you know no one that hunts Geese over water, I am sorry, that is not true for me, I only know people who hunt them over water, Hell! I could shoot hundreds of them in less than a few hours in any of the fields. They are right close to the highways (Rte 22A, Route 30 and Route 125 and Route 7) and to Field kill them would be just too damn easy. Maybe it is more allowed or rather more accepted further into their migration routes. I do not know.
I do not question your training of your dog. They use dogs here for partridge in the big fields of the Northern Champlain Valley and near Jay peak Basin area and without doubt in other areas as well. I have never seen anyone hunting in the fields you refer to. I have traveled thru Shoreham, Bridport, Benson, Brandon, Middlebury, Hinesburg, Monkton, Vergennes, Fair haven, Castleton, Poultney so on and have lived my whole life in these areas. I am sorry, I am fully aware of the schools you refer to and they have been to the Conservation Camp Kehoe on Bomoseen doing demostrations. I have lived in the area you refer to almost all of my life and have never witnessed a hunt in the field and I seriously mean NEVER. Once again, what you say is no doubt true, but I have never known a person or even seen a person field hunt for anything other than Partridge or Quail or sometimes Bob Whites.
But still, my reference is to ethics in hunting and in reference to Bench resting and shooting from a bench at Deer as was in the video. I am not nor have I implied I was an EXPERT in Duck or Goose Hunting and I have Malamutes and not Bird Dogs. I wrote only from MY own experiences used examples to gain attention to what others and myself would deem as ethical and none ethical, examples were not brought up to create different directions for the discussion.

 

[Picher]

If there's little wind and the shooter is highly skilled with the proper equipment, including laser rangefinder and a rifle with enough energy to do the job at those distances, I don't have a problem with taking a deer at long range. I've shot them at 400 yards and don't want to take them longer than that, but don't use a super magnum and benchrest equipment.

It should be noted that the second deer shot seemed to be hit in the hindquarters or gut. It's extremely difficult to find deer that are shot that far away if they run and there are woods nearby. Even the magnums have so little energy left that a shot needs to be very well placed to kill cleanly.

That said, we've found deer shot by others who didn't seem to follow them to see if they'd been hit. There were no opportunities to shoot more than 100 yards in those areas, so I have to assume that they were shot at around 50 yards or less...the most common woods distances.

Let's face it, the average hunter doesn't know how to shoot well. They also don't follow the deer tracks to find a wounded deer. Many are afraid to step off a woods road for fear of getting lost. Sad but true. They don't even shoot enough to know what they can't hit. One guy shot a doe with buckshot at 90 yards. The deer went into a small alder patch and the guy didn't even look for it. I found it in two minutes and yelled for the guy to come and get it. He didn't even have a doe tag! I should have reported him.

Thank God that most of us on these boards practice our shooting enough to know what we can and can't do.

Picher

 

[Wingwiper]

Picher

Great post picher and well said.

There was a guy, I came very close in meeting and had the Privelage to shoot on his Range and sit in his Sniper School at Quanitico Va and that was Carlos Hathcock. This is a man who had the Eye and Won the 1000 meter, Open Sights Wimbleton Cup at Camp Perry at the age of 26. There is a book out about him and some of his EXCEPTIONAL Shots it is called 'Marine Sniper' a book that everyone who is in to shooting should read. AN Awesome book about an Awesome man.
There was one shot, where he shot a NVA sniper right through his scope and in the eye. no benches, no bench rests, no fancy stuff just a Remmington 700 with a Urtele (sp) Scope. The shot was over 800 yards. It was the only time Carlos was ever nervous. You see that NVA sniper as well as several others were ordered o find Carlos and kill him. The ONLY way Carlos could have made that shot was simply explained by his Spotter. The NVA Sniper had Carlos in his Cross Hairs as well it was a matter of who was first on the trigger.
Carlos could shoot and that is why he did Two Tours and did what he did, he was the BEST QUALIFIED.
My points were very simple and I was surprised I had so much opposition, the Sport of Hunting needs Control from within and that is done by Hunter Ethics. Ethics is very important today if te Sport is to Survive. The NRA takes heat every single day and we need to all unite on ONE COMMON Ground ETHICS and show we have ethics when we hunt. Ethics will alter from region to region and I was tryingto establish tha and did a poor job.

 

[bpm990d]

Your posts have more non sequiturs and inaccuracies than a college textbook on feminism.

The only lesson about hunter ethics anyone got out of this thread is that hunters shouldn't go and shit on what other hunters do as long as they are taking game swiftly; not trashing the area they hunt in and are being safe about it.

B

 

[Wingwiper]

BPM990D

Your posts have more non sequiturs and inaccuracies than a college textbook on feminism

Do I sense an Attitude? Filled with Innaccuracies? really? like what? I gave reference to some websites on the very subject I am speaking of and did YOU take the time to go and read any of them or are you just coping an attitude in between coffees?

As I said earlier if you all can NOT precieve or understand what I am speaking about when I say ETHICs in Hunting, then maybe you are more of the problem and less of the cure.

I gave poor examples of Hunter Ethics that are actually happening here in Vermont and have been and explained that was why farmers around here and other land owners are POSTING their property. So whether YOU understand or not, the FACT is, there is less land to Hunt on, less support from Non Hunters or Non Shooters, Sand pits and Gravel Pits are being shut down, A Sporting Clay Range just down the road, shut down because a couple of A--holes from Conn didn't care for it and had the moeny to hire the legal people needed.
Besides losing land to developement and second home buyers, investors etc we are losing popularity with surrounding owners and non gun owners. Their images of us are being fed by UNETHICAL Hunters and that Image has grown more negative year by year. You all have seen the Big Beer belly Redneck toting a gun and drinking a beer labeled HUNTER. Having a video such as the one that brought this all up on YOUTUBE for the WHOLE friggin world to see is in very bad taste and IF people don't start hearing Gun Owners and Hunters talk with a bit more ethics, you will see more Regulation in the FORM OF LAWS and not in Hunter Ethics. Seems these boards are filled with posters from Mass who are fed up with the restictions that are being imposed on them. Or the ONE YEAR mandatory Jail Sentence sign that Use to be beside the Welcome to Mass sign.
I have been a gun owner and hunter for well over 40 years, I have actively competed in many levels of Matches and earned my Gold in 93, I have fought Gun Control Bills and representatives for nealy 2 1/2 decades, written letters to the editor, taught Hunter Safety Courses, spoken at Seminars etc all for the sake of trying to preserve the Sport of Shooting and Hunting. BPM990D you may think I am all wet, and what bothers me is that a fellow shooter, such as yourself is too damn blind to see the light that is shinning in your face. Maybe I did not use the best examples and may have to come down a few notches for everyone to be able to understand the point and the ONLY REAL point is pure and simple we all must adopt ETHICs in our SPORT or you will continue to see more land get posted, more Ranges shut down, more laws get passed, more control and so on.
What you all should have learned with Jim Zumbo is WE all make the difference NOT the NRA or the any other group, you and me and everyone who is involved directly or indirectly with any type of shooting sport is what makes the difference.
I have said my piece and I am utterly surprised at the flak I got from the very people who swear they are Sportsmen and Shooters etc. That Video has been watched over 2500 times just on YOU TUBE, God knows where else it is showing, YOU had better hope everyone who watches that videos agrees with your ideas and that ETHICs is NOT needed. God help us all and our sports if you are wrong.

 

[Admin]

Please remember gentlemen we are all on the same team here...

 

[Wingwiper]

Derek

I do remember and that is MY point entirely.. We need to police each other in and off the field.

 

[bpm990d]

People are not posting their land because they see a video of guys doing long range hunting on YouTube. They are posting their land because when they go out to get their laundry they hung up to dry, they see some bonehead right next to their house or they take a walk into the treeline and find someones treestand on their property that no one asked permission to put up. Shot up stop and yield signs do wonders too.

B

 

[bpm990d]

Are you guys done pissing in the wind?

I'm done. I've given it three shakes and it is all dry.

B

 

[Admin]

 

[TonyD]

Sorry, wingwiper, but who made you the emperor of ethics? No disrespect intended but you've been incorrect on every point you've made, except one - ethics. The problem is how YOU define ethical behaviour. Ethics, and all of it's subcategories (meta-ethics, normative-ethics, applied ethics, etc, etc), is one the greatest and longest ongoing study and contrversies.

I see absolutely nothing unethical, immoral, unsafe or illegal in that short clip of video. What I do see is two very experienced and successful long range hunters. It appears to me these two gentlemen took every precaution available to be "ethical" in the boudries of their activity.

Most hunters I've known never shoot more than twenty rounds a year. Is that ethical? Very few hunters I know have the marksmanship skills I posses. Is it unethical for them to hunt? After all, it's quite possible (and often occurs) they will jump on the trigger, or mis-judge distance and only wound the animal.

At the risk over simplifying the age-old debate of ethics as it applies in this situation, I will offer you this;

If you hunt within your OWN personal limits to safely and humanely take an animal, it is ethical. It appears this is the case. These two obviously understand and eliminated the number one reason for wounding / losing game - range estimation. I'll bet anyone a steak dinner that was nearly 900 yards. They eliminated another huge factor in losing game - a stable shooting platform.

Two dropped on the spot, and judging from the vapor trail and factoring in the angle of observation, one appears to be a lung shot - still a vital target. I've also seen hunters jump out of their stand too quickly to track a dear that has taken a fatal shot but never recovered when the blood trail runs out by pushing the animal instead of letting it lay down and die.

I think these guys probably took more precautions to ensure a successful hunt than most of the others of us out there.

 

[Martlet]

Dirtypacman

You said it better in ONE Paragraph than I have been able to do in 10 pages. Good Job.

Funny. He did it without condemning everyone who didn't agree with him.

 

[Wingwiper]

Martlett
I have condemn no one except that video.

Tonyd and everyone if you can’t read the whole thing, then ignore it.

Sorry, wingwiper, but who made you the emperor of ethics? No disrespect intended but you've been incorrect on every point you've made, except one - ethics.

You guys have an opposite view from me and I am not insulting anyone, why do some of you feel you have the entitlement to insult posters with views that do not coincide with yours?

You said I have been INCORRECT on EVERY point except one. Have some respect give detail and not generalizations, every point doesn't say anything, what points and include the right point so I can see where I was supposedly wrong.
Wrong in what way? They are my experiences and from what I know first hand. I do not claim to be an EMPEROR of anything, why the insults? My views differ and that is clear. I am NOT a liar and not a Johnny Come Lately. I have watched a lot of land get posted and by people who were fed up and they are more than willing to tell you why, all you have to do is just ask them. Have you all ever taken the time to ask anyone why they posted their land? I have, many times. I would report my findings to the Hunter Safety Classes I taught and used the reasons to help prevent it from happening further and to more land. The reasons may surprise many of you who think I am just blowing Hot air.

I see absolutely nothing unethical, immoral, unsafe or illegal in that short clip of video. What I do see are two very experienced and successful long-range hunters. It appears to me these two gentlemen took every precaution available to be "ethical" in the boudries of their activity.

Two very EXPERIENCED? How did you conclude that? Successful long range Hunters? that is success? Coming from you I am very surprised. The buildings in the background, all within the Safety Cone or Buffer. Shooting into dense trees where you cannot see where the projectile is striking? A friend of mine killed a guy in Barre Vt 5 years ago, the guy was sitting down watching TV, my friend was quite a distance away and started shooting several rounds into a tree stump, (very much like the environment shown in the video) one projectile went thru the stump and continued some distance went thru a window or wall and struck the guy in the neck and killed him.
The HUNT? What Hunt? They were set up on a hillside and probably just out of sight had a Beer cooler loaded with their Daily Needs. There was NO HUNT. You see, I see something entirely different and nothing that makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

Hunting is the practice of pursuing animals for food, recreation, trade or for their products

My 15-year-old daughter could do that very same shot with that equipment and I still will argue that it was far from 890 yards. Carlos made some splendid shots, these guys did not. That shot you said was a Lung shot, naw... it was an upper hindquarter shot, the stream shoots upward and to the right. It would never go upward in that fine of a stream, uninterrupted if it was a lung or chest shot, the stream would more than likely go downward. We don’t even agree here, so I am the enemy??????
If you or anyone else here has ever taught a Hunter Safety Course, there use to be a film called "On Any Bloody Sunday" or something close to that. It was about the very Ethics I listed. Leaving Gates open, sound shooting, showing your kill openly in the public eyes etc etc. I am not saying anything that has not been said over and over by many types of sources.

I think these guys probably took more precautions to ensure a successful hunt than most of the others of us out there.

The only precautions they took were to be sure they had enough Beer with them. There was no hunt and once again buildings in the Safety Cone. From some of the replies I have gotten, I would not doubt that some on these boards prefer the Free to do as I please style. Something you all need to remember, unless you own a lot of land yourself, you are probably hunting on someone else’s have some respect.

I made it clear that the rifle or the scope were NEVER in question and only the method was. I seem to remember several posts in the beginning that agreed with me. I am the one who chose to try and explain my reason for my post and because it doesn't fit in with some of yours, I am being called a liar an Emperor or whatever. Why the disrespect? You have checked my credentials, am I not entitled to give my opinion here? You know my name, look me up in the phone book and then look on the map, you will see I live exactly where I claim and miles of woods and national forest surround me. Why do you and a few others think I am some City dwelling fool?
I see us all as on the SAME TEAM and I fully believe that Ethics is something we better get more of or lose what little Freedoms we have left. I could give a Rat's A-- about watching Deer fall after being shot, have shot many myself, that doesn't bother me at all. I raise and butcher Chickens and Turkeys. What bothers me is the filming of themselves doing it and the method bothers me BIG TIME because I know beyond a doubt that video will be watched and copied by the wrong people and will erode our Freedom away even more. Their views of us is that Big Beer Belly Suspendered, belly hanging over pants, gun in one hand, beer in the other and a few teeth missing. That video is fuel for their Fires and not ours. No FAIR CHASE in that Video, NO effort to equal the Hunter to the Hunted, such fine SPORTSMANSHIP… MY opinion again. Hey! Why not go to one of those Fallon Farms and shoot them while they are in a little fenced area? Hell! Burn em out. Maybe some Napalm over the entire area would have them gutted and cooked all at once.
You can challenge my views but please show some respect in so doing. I am not from Mass. and don’t talk with your accents nor live anywhere near a city. I know nothing about license to carry permits, I just carry and keep a Berretta in the front seat. I shoot every chance I get and work at Ranges with the FBI, F&G, State P.D.s. local PDs, Vt, NH, Me, NY Guard Units, Marines, Army and so many other Military Units including Mountain and Seal Teams. Every October we run “Operation Bullseye” where we invite all Local hunters to come in and let us help them sight in their firearms, I think we are well in our 20TH year. I love shooting and I hate watching ignorance and plain stupidity take more of my Rights and Freedoms away, knowing full well, it could have been all avoided with some real simple COMMON SENSE..
Very simply, it isn’t about what is ONLY acceptable amongst ourselves but how we are viewed in the eyes of our opponents. Those opponents have labeled the NRA and other Pro Gun Groups as evil. Do you all actually think that video is the kind of advertising for hunting we want to be shown on youtube.com? If you all do, then you sure don’t care about ensuring Shooting Sports will be around much longer.
The Assault Weapon Ban was passed for two very different reasons. First the idiots trying to explain to the constituents by saying they were outlawing Uziis and AK-47s and firearms that were capable of firing 700 rounds per minute. They were too uniformed to know it was the Civilian Look a likes and semi-autos that were being shown and outlawed and that the AKs and Uziis were already highly regulated and banned. Second, it had a 2 year Federal Funding of 200,000 more Cop clause attached. I am sure the people trying to pass the New AWB would view the video as a Freedom that is needed to be protected. That Video was fuel for the Bradies.
Your enemy is NOT me, I am on your side and have been. I stand firmly that that video is totally unethical and is the worst kind of advertising we could possibly have. This is my sport as well and not just YOURs alone, we need to act collectively and not allow anything that will soil our image, intent or our reputations. We need to act American, Civilized and reasonable in our actions. I am not on a High Chair or a Soap Box, the opposition is. If you all have better ideas than you better get them in place and by what I have seen, you all have done a lousy job keeping the Freedoms Alive in Mass. Vermont has NO GUN LAWS and some have tried to implement them with examples as their evidence of what I have posted. Vermont is still very much a FREE state and I legally carry guns without PERMITS of any kind. I see that threaten and I see more and more Howard Deans and Bernie Sanders moving here and making us more like Morton Grove, Ill, I am really sorry you all think I am against what you stand for when in fact I am very much standing with and for you.

 

[sksguns]

 

[PatMcD]

I still do not see the difference between waiting in a tree stand and shooting a deer that comes ambling by at 35 yds, and sitting at a bench and waiting for a deer that comes ambling by at 890 yds. Assuming one has the skill and equipment to do it.
Anybody who purposely takes an offhand shot at a deer when cicumstances allow and a rest is nearby (sitting, kneeling, prone, tree, branch, pack, etc.) is a little on the unethical side, if you ask me.

Also, it's been a couple of days since I've watched that clip, but I do not remember any beer in evidence. I don't see how you can make that assumption.

Not attacking, just want to clarify.

 

[Wingwiper]

I see the beer in the same way others see TWO PROFESSIONAL GENTLEMEN. (devil's Advocate)

You know what Pat, I agree with you, I don't beleive in Cameras, trip wire, salt licks, Tree Stands etc. But the Majority of the hunters do and it is widely accepted. I hunt, in every fashion I hunt. I read sign, track and in October, while bird hunting I look for scrapings and rubbings. I covered a lot of distance when I hunted. I enjoyed the Hunt, imensely.