LTC and buying dispensary marijuana (not medical)

[fshalor]

Not true as to "never". The 4473 question asks:

Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance? Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.​

Note it asks "Are you", not "Are you or have you ever been". I think the BATFE standard for "are" is within 6 months.

I agree with you! But. Electronic syncing between broad data lakes without a logical assessment of those ....k. Stopping now. I have worked on projects on data sets this big. If a sync happens. Don't expect it to make anything like logic to be applied.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I agree with you! But. Electronic syncing between broad data lakes without a logical assessment of those ....k. Stopping now. I have worked on projects on data sets this big. If a sync happens. Don't expect it to make anything like logic to be applied.

True, but the "ok if X amount of time has passed" is routinely applied to candidates for armed federal agent jobs. This was one of the arguments that helped Comm2A to prevail in Fletcher v. Haas.

 

[Kevin_NH]

Is buying it proof that one is using it personally?
I know the Kittery Trading Post has signs warning they will not sell you a gun if the know you have a medical MJ card.

Great question! All I do know is you have to show your drivers license for every single transaction that you make at the pot store.

Since 2011 ATF has held that possession of a valid MMJ card is "reasonable cause to believe" the cardholder "is an unlawful user of", while merely scanning your ID at the door of the recreational shop (Hint: MGL says a passport is acceptable too) is not yet at that level.

As far as state laws go, back in 2017, police in Honolulu sent letters to local medical marijuana patients instructing them to “voluntarily surrender” their firearms. Massachusetts has not done anything even close to that, and routinely issues FID, LTC to MMJ cardholders.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the purchase network go federal if and when feds legalize MJ.

Depending on how FedGov chooses to change the law (Reschedule? deschedule? Tax and control like tobacco?), why would there even be a purchase network any more complex than how hard liquor is controlled?

The wording on the 4473 is intentionally phrased as "Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to..."

 

[daekken]

The feds asking the 4473 weed question is like you asking your wife if she cleans the lint trap every load. You expect to be lied to 95% of the time, you're just setting someone up for a big "I told you so."

Wait, people don't clean the lint trap? I check it religiously, I clean it after drying a load and double check it before the next one...

 

[fshalor]

Since 2011 ATF has held that possession of a valid MMJ card is "reasonable cause to believe" the cardholder "is an unlawful user of", while merely scanning your ID at the door of the recreational shop (Hint: MGL says a passport is acceptable too) is not yet at that level.

As far as state laws go, back in 2017, police in Honolulu sent letters to local medical marijuana patients instructing them to “voluntarily surrender” their firearms. Massachusetts has not done anything even close to that, and routinely issues FID, LTC to MMJ cardholders.


Depending on how FedGov chooses to change the law (Reschedule? deschedule? Tax and control like tobacco?), why would there even be a purchase network any more complex than how hard liquor is controlled?

The wording on the 4473 is intentionally phrased as "Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to..."

This is why I don't believe the 6-month bit.

 

[Lank]

A second year law student could write regulatory definitions to solve that.
Somebody did...

(Bolding mine. Also the underscoring in the part where
possession implies use).

Department of Treasury​

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms​

TD ATF-391​

Definitions for the Categories of Persons Prohibited From Receiving Firearms (95R-051P)​

...​

Persons Who Are Unlawful Users of or Addicted to Any Controlled Substance​

​

As proposed in Notice No. 839, the terms ``controlled substance''​

and ``unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance'' are​

defined as follows:​

​

Controlled substance. A drug or other substance, or immediate​

precursor, as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances​

Act, 21 U.S.C. 802. The term includes, but is not limited to,​

marijuana, depressants, stimulants, and narcotic drugs. The term​

does not include distilled spirits, wine, malt beverages, or​

tobacco, as those terms are defined or used in Subtitle E of the​

Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended.​

​

Unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance. A​

person who uses a controlled substance and has lost the power of​

self-control with reference to the use of the controlled​

substance; and any person who is a current user of a controlled​

substance in a manner other than as prescribed by a licensed​

physician. Such use is not limited to the use of drugs on a​

particular day, or within a matter of days or weeks before, but​

rather that the unlawful use has occurred recently enough to​

indicate that the individual is actively engaged in such conduct.​

A person may be an unlawful current user of a controlled​

substance even though the substance is not being used at the​

precise time the person seeks to acquire a firearm or receives or​

possesses a firearm. An inference of current use may be drawn​

from evidence of a recent use or possession of a controlled​

substance or a pattern of use or possession that reasonably​

covers the present time, e.g., a conviction for use or possession​

of a controlled substance within the past year, or multiple​

arrests for such offenses within the past five years if the most​

recent arrest occurred within the past year.​

​

The DOJ Office of Policy Development inquired whether the​

proposed definition includes persons found through a drug test to​

use a controlled substance unlawfully, provided the test was​

administered within the past year. In response, ATF agrees that​

this information would give rise to an inference of unlawful drug​

use. Accordingly, the final regulations are being amended to​

identify these persons in the definition as an example of​

unlawful drug user.​

​

DOD commented that the examples should be expanded to include​

illegal drug use as evidenced by nonjudicial or administrative​

proceedings. DOD believes that it would be helpful to add the​

following at the end of the proposed definition:​

​

For a current or former member of the Armed Forces, an inference​

of current use may be drawn from recent disciplinary or other​

administrative action based on confirmed drug use, e.g.,​

court-martial conviction, nonjudicial punishment, or an​

administrative discharge based on drug use or drug rehabilitation​

failure.​

​

ATF finds that the Defense Department's proposed language helps​

to clarify the definition with respect to the military and is​

adopting the proposed amendment into the final regulations.​

So why does the ATF exist?

 

[rep308]

My adivce to more than one firearms owner who likes a puff or two, pay your stoner freind a $10-$20 bonus to pick up some stuff for you the next time they go to the dispensary. Pay them in cash. No records, no tracing, just like in the movies where the teenagers pay a guy to buy booze for them, not that I have any personal experience with any of this.

 

[Kevin_NH]

This is why I don't believe the 6-month bit.

TBF, the ATF position is that if a person's MMJ card is valid, they presume that person is a user, see Wilson v. Lynch

if you are aware that the potential transferee is in possession of a card authorizing the possession and use of marijuana under State law, then you have “reasonable cause to believe” that the person is an unlawful user of a controlled substance. As such, you may not transfer firearms or ammunition to the person, even if the person answered “no” to question 11.e. on ATF Form 4473.
. . .
Wilson could acquire firearms and exercise her right to self-defense at any time by surrendering her registry card, thereby demonstrating to a firearms dealer that there is no reasonable cause to believe she is an unlawful drug user.”

 

[Buck F]

One more detail - anyone providing armed security for a dispensary could face rather serious federal charges regarding being armed while committing a drug offense.

One of my clients told me he got a job working at a grow operation/dispensary in MA. Part of the condition of hire was that he turn in or cancel his MA Firearms License (I didn’t get too in depth with him about it so don’t know the details, just relaying what he told me). He said he’s had his license a while and never owned a gun or did any shooting. Said he couldn’t hold a valid LTC and work there.

 

[Buck F]

My adivce to more than one firearms owner who likes a puff or two, pay your stoner freind a $10-$20 bonus to pick up some stuff for you the next time they go to the dispensary. Pay them in cash. No records, no tracing, just like in the movies where the teenagers pay a guy to buy booze for them, not that I have any personal experience with any of this.

Even better if they have a medicinal card, avoids the taxes which are pretty high. My ex has one.

 

[Nick Fury]

What would the problem be ? I know a gun owner that sometimes buy legal pot needles in the form of gummies because sometimes his boyfriend wants to take one to help with falling asleep because it's much better than synthetic drugs.

Broke no laws and doesn't use the pot needles himself and therefore would not be lying on a 4473.

If you buy weed for someone else is that still a straw purchase or would it be considered a grass purchase?

 

[kelton]

Recreational sales started in 2014 in Colorado, has anyone anywhere been charged and or denied a firearm purchase because their ID (not MJCARD) was scanned a store?

I know .gov is slow, but they better shit or get off the pot

 

[Kevin_NH]

One of my clients told me he got a job working at a grow operation/dispensary in MA. Part of the condition of hire was that he turn in or cancel his MA Firearms License (I didn’t get too in depth with him about it so don’t know the details, just relaying what he told me). He said he’s had his license a while and never owned a gun or did any shooting. Said he couldn’t hold a valid LTC and work there.

There's zero indication that the state of Massachusetts CCC nor the Feds have ever set that policy, so seems more likely to be a personal policy of the owners.

Here's some examples from the MCCC website:

• "Both owners of Boston Bud Factory are licensed to carry a firearm, they will carry their firearms on site and will open carry..."
• ...even if the staff member has a legal permit to carry such a weapon
• "The Security Manager of Legal Greens, LLC is the sole individual authorized to determine which employees and security agents are authorized to possess a firearm while on Legal Greens, LLC property"

So the CCC is officially aware many dispensary owners have LTCs, as do their employees.

 

[AHM]

I think the BATFE standard for "are" is within 6 months.

Nah.

Wait, people don't clean the lint trap? I check it religiously, I clean it after drying a load and double check it before the next one...

Press-check before hitting <Start>?

One of my clients told me he got a job working at a grow operation/dispensary in MA. Part of the condition of hire was that he turn in or cancel his MA Firearms License ...

Ran his mouth about his guns during his job interview?

Or sucked for boilerplate from Personnel? Just like,
"you must give us your Facebook password",
as if every job applicant has a Facebook account.

 

[AHM]

So why does the ATF exist?

For the same reason as postmodern French philosophy exists -
to provide employment to the useless, and to annoy people?

 

[SgtHal75]

My adivce to more than one firearms owner who likes a puff or two, pay your stoner freind a $10-$20 bonus to pick up some stuff for you the next time they go to the dispensary. Pay them in cash. No records, no tracing, just like in the movies where the teenagers pay a guy to buy booze for them, not that I have any personal experience with any of this.

God I miss being in HS and waiting outside the packy for a buyer!!!! The thrill of that was almost as good as drinking the beer in the cemetery

 

[Class3NH]

Is buying it proof that one is using it personally?

I know the Kittery Trading Post has signs warning they will not sell you a gun if the know you have a medical MJ card.

Well, to HELP answer that question..... Ma (and several other States) have MJ as being "legal"....NOW, with that being said... The 4473 is a Federal Form, and has the Federal Government legalized MJ? Therefore, on Question 11E..... If you say "yes" ... The transaction ends there. If you say "No" and you're using.... well that's the Full Peril on you, for lying on a Federal form.... YMMV..... Just my .02...

 

[KBCraig]

First poster had me right up until the spam link.

 

[motorland]

I know how hard it is to wait for LTC approval, but it's worth it! I've also heard rumors that you can be denied if you buy non-medical marijuana at a dispensary. It's unpleasant, but it's probably best to reassure yourself and wait for approval before going to the dispensary. In the meantime, you can try CBD oil for sleep and pain relief. I've read some good articles about it on mindbodygreen.com and use it myself, and I love its relaxing effect and getting rid of headaches. Anyway, I wish you all the best and good luck.

 

[Kevin_NH]

I know how hard it is to wait for LTC approval, but it's worth it! I've also heard rumors that you can be denied if you buy non-medical marijuana at a dispensary. It's unpleasant, but it's probably best to reassure yourself and wait for approval before going to the dispensary.

How exactly would that work?
Are townie mass cops staking out recreational dispensaries. writing down license plates like the staties used to do at NH liquor stores?

 

[appraiser]

Never bring the man into your life. That includes buying marijuana. I don't smoke I never have. But I have friends that do and have been for years. I also have friends that sell and they've been selling for years. A friend of mine who is a daily user for pain control and has been for many years still buys from the same guy that he's been buying from for the last 20 some odd years. Granted at the federal level it's not legal but then again it isn't legal in any state according to the feds. And it's not legal in the states only because they can't tax Private sales. That's why you can't buy pot from a friend legally. You can gift it all day long but you can't sell it. But if you happen to pay $100 for a bag of m&Ms which are not taxable in the state of Massachusetts to my knowledge and someone hands you a plastic bag with a green herbal substance in it as a free gift for buying that $100 bag of marijuana no laws are being broken.

 

[namedpipes]

Regardless of the LTC issue (I'd say it's likely "don't ask, don't tell" with regard to suitability), you'd likely have to lie on a 4473. The 4473 background check form very explicitly states that marijuana is federally illegal and it doesn't matter if your state has decriminalized it, you are prohibited from having guns.

So, if you do partake, you're committing perjury on a federal form anytime you buy a gun at a dealer and check the "No" box regarding drug use. Unless your purchase was just "holding it for a friend."

Do I agree with it? Hell no. But that's the way it is written.

But back to the LTC. I'd say it wouldn't be a stretch for an issuing officer to deny you an LTC if he knew you were either a user or a buyer. Again, as noted above, MJ use makes you a prohibited person. The question would be whether or not the issuing authority actually knew you bought or not (had access to shop records, for example). In that case, the less said the better.

This is also part of the reason GOAL had the campaign around, "If you like having gun rights, be careful of dispensaries and MA legal marijuana" - because it's a bit of a quagmire on the federal level.

Here is the text from the 4473 (background check form):

Not to channel Bill Clinton or anything, but to be blunt (pun intended) I was a child of the 70s, growing up in the countryside where the big excitement was Saturday Night Cow Tipping. What the hell else was there to DO but light miniature fires and breathe the smoke? I mean, of course *I* never, but I've seen everybody and some of their mothers do so...

Should that technical crime, half a century later, be enough to make those people "prohibited persons"? Of course not.

Ok, what about yesterday? Probably, at least according to the letter of the law. Last week? Last month? Last year? When does your THC virginity renew itself?

“It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is. If the—if he—if ‘is’ means is and never has been, that is not—that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement. … Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true.”

 

[namedpipes]

... But, it's circumstantial evidence (i.e., most people don't buy marijuana from a dispensary to throw in a compost heap or make clothing--they buy it to use it for its consciousness-altering characteristics). ...

You could have bought them to replace some of the candies in the (adult themed) Easter Egg Hunt with edibles. Sort of a chocolaty Russian Roulette! Who says you ATE any of them?

(A Russian Fabergé egg - яйцо Фаберже, tr. yaytso Faberzhe)

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I know how hard it is to wait for LTC approval, but it's worth it! I've also heard rumors that you can be denied if you buy non-medical marijuana at a dispensary. It's unpleasant, but it's probably best to reassure yourself and wait for approval before going to the dispensary. In the meantime, you can try CBD oil for sleep and pain relief. I've read some good articles about it on mindbodygreen.com and use it myself, and I love its relaxing effect and getting rid of headaches. Anyway, I wish you all the best and good luck.

You are a federally prohibited person if you use non-medical, or medical, MJ. Some gun shops will refuse a sale if they see a MJ card in you wallet.

 

[KBCraig]

When does your THC virginity renew itself?

ATF is intentionally vague about the meaning of "addicted to" (not relevant to cannabis), or "current user of".

They have proffered some BS "guidance", but there is no legal standard for "current user".

 

[walter62]

Good News

Another federal judge rejects the DOJ's argument that cannabis consumers have no Second Amendment rights

U.S. District Judge Kathleen Cardone was unimpressed by the Biden administration's argument that marijuana users are too "dangerous" to own guns.

reason.com

 

[In God We Trust]

Last time I went to a dispensary, I asked the nice lady who scanned my ID what they do with that info. All the scanner does is tell them if your ID is real.

She asked me as soon as I asked if I was worried about my LTC. She says guys ask her that all the time. They don’t store the info and they wouldn’t give any info at all including camera access without a warrant.

 

[Picton]

ATF is intentionally vague about the meaning of "addicted to" (not relevant to cannabis), or "current user of".

They have proffered some BS "guidance", but there is no legal standard for "current user".

I bet a MA court would actually be pretty friendly to a more expansive use of the word "current."

But! The issue is guns, so... maybe the court's head would explode.

 

[usernameinuse]

I "highly" doubt any prohibition would stand up in court, especially post Bruen.. There is more data to support alcohol as it relates to dangerousness than cannabis.

 

[Wickedcoolname]

Just grow your own or buy it the old fashioned way. Why pay the Ma**h*** 20% tax?