LTCs with PIN numbers...

nhams said:
A straw purchase is the act of buying a gun to give it to a prohibited person. The OP wouldn't be applying for a license if he was a prohibited person. If there is a plan to transfer the gun to the OP when he obtains his license, I cannot see how that is a straw purchase.

The guy was asking about pin numbers and you started dropping terms like "federal felony". Does that seem a little over the top?
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Exactly. There was never an intention to transfer the gun to a prohibited person at any time. The intent was for a licensed relative to hold the gun (and actually sign for the purchase) and then transfer the gun at a later time to a licensed holder.

What they are struggling with is the question that asks "Are you the buyer of this gun?" Technically, my uncle didn't buy it. So the armchair lawyers are calling me on that.

Think of a textbook "straw purchase" as someone who's 21 buying alcohol and providing it to minors. There's a clear transfer here from a properly licensed person to someone who cannot legally drink or possess alcohol.

Nothing is being transferred to an unlicensed owner in my case.
 
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I visited the PD and my licensing officer was able to print a form with my pin number. It was not provided when I picked up my permit. It is used, typically, when they cannot read your fingerprints or the computer is down.

-MS
 
Phaedo1982 said:
Exactly. There was never an intention to transfer the gun to a prohibited person at any time. The intent was for a licensed relative to hold the gun (and actually sign for the purchase) and then transfer the gun at a later time to a licensed holder.

What they are struggling with is the question that asks "Are you the buyer of this gun?" Technically, my uncle didn't buy it. So the armchair lawyers are calling me on that.

Think of a textbook "straw purchase" as someone who's 21 buying alcohol and providing it to minors. There's a clear transfer here from a properly licensed person to someone who cannot legally drink or possess alcohol.

Nothing is being transferred to an unlicensed owner in my case.
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Lying on the 4473 is also a federal felony. People on this board are trying to help you, trying to prevent you from admitting to a felony on a public board. If you don't want to take their advice, that fine.
 
nhams said:
The guy was asking about pin numbers and you started dropping terms like "federal felony". Does that seem a little over the top?
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No I don't think it is over the top. A straw purchase is a felony under federal law - which is why i "dropped" the term federal felony.

Yes the OP was asking about PIN's, but he went on to describe a transaction that is legally questionable to say the least. Posting about it on a public forum is not really beneficial to the OP.
 
The transaction described here is a probable straw purchase under Federal law. If you wanted the gun that bad, you should have put it on layaway until the buyer was able to legally purchase. No one "dropping terms like federal felony" is over the top here.
 
Zappa said:
On the paperwork I received with my LTC and PIN, it specifically stated that the PIN# is NOT to be written on the license.
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My paperwork didn't say that. But the PIN is not written exactly as it's supposed to be. If you swap two numbers around, it would take the bad guys awhile to figure it out.
 
The transaction hasn't gone through and I'll make sure it stays at the shop until I'm fully licensed and can sign for it. Thank you to all the concerned citizens who have educated me on Federal Law!

I'll make sure that I educate the gun shop owner as well on my newly acquired knowledge of straw purchases and Federal Law.
 
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Supermoto said:
Lying on the 4473 is also a federal felony. People on this board are trying to help you, trying to prevent you from admitting to a felony on a public board. If you don't want to take their advice, that fine.
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Technically, the person filling out the form would be the one committing the felony. But, I'll definitely make sure that it's not signed for by a relative.

And I never said I wasn't taking the advice given. I just questioned the true nature of a "straw purchase."

Thank you.
 
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Phaedo1982 said:
The transaction hasn't gone through and I'll make sure it stays at the shop until I'm fully licensed and can sign for it. Thank you to all the concerned citizens who have educated me on Federal Law!

I'll make sure that I educate the gun shop owner as well on my newly acquired knowledge of straw purchases and Federal Law.
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Good choice of words. You can't be too careful, even though I still think people overreacted to your post.

I still don't think it would be a straw purchase. At what point does buying a gun for a son/daughter (or nephew) become a straw purchase, if the gun will be given to the child when he/she is of legal age (or when they receive their license)? Especially if the child (or nephew) will not be given total control over the gun until after it is legal?

Straw purchase laws are not meant for this situation.
 
Phaedo1982 said:
Any idea if this is something that the officer can provide over the phone or will my uncle need to stop in to obtain a copy?
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Depends on the PD. I would tend to think that he would have to go in just so they make sure they are giving the information to the right person. If they know your Uncle they may tell him on the phone.
 
BostonFJ40 said:
I have bought 3 guns since Feb. and no one asked me for a PIN.
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I'm gonna try and stay on track...I think you paying and having someone else pick up is not the way you are supposed to purchase firearms.....but whatever....

Anyway.....if the FP scanner doesn't work, the dealer will ask you for a PIN # to verify your identity. It's really gay, because you have a card with a picture on there anywway...but who knows.....maybe the state is planning ahead I guess, in case you wanted to dress like a woman for that day or something....WTF.

My FP's never work with the scanner and 100% of the time I have to use my PIN#.......keep it in your cellphone, on the back of your LTC, or in another place handy where you have it 100% of the time in case you run across a good deal.
 
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don't see why you can just pay for it and he doesn't display it. Hell if all else falls through you buy $XXX of paper weights at his shop.
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Ah, no - you pay and get a receipt indicating that the $$ is for that gun (listing the serial number) and demand you money back if it's sold by accident. If the shop screws up and sells the gun after you have paid for it, you should not be obligated to spend that $$ elsewhere in the shop.

If you really want to prevent an accident, take the box and slide (unregulated) after paying in advance for the gun.

Back in the early 80s I lived in Rochester, NY. Practice in that area is for a new handgun buyer to put a deposit on the gun, provide the receipt as part of the pistol permit process, and go back to complete the sale 3-5 months later once the permit was issued. One long since defunct shop took deposits on guns they had on consignment from a wholesaler in the same building. The shop didn't pay for them, and returned them to the wholesaler when they demanded their merchandise - making for an interesting situation a few months later when those people came back with their purchase coupon and the balance they owed on the gun they thought they were in the process of buying.

So, the bottom line, is that "pay in advance" while the shop holds it is fine, but you are an unsecured creditor for the duration, so make sure it's a stable business.
 
Kaos116 said:
My paperwork didn't say that. But the PIN is not written exactly as it's supposed to be. If you swap two numbers around, it would take the bad guys awhile to figure it out.
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My paperwork never said that either....lets face it if some a**h*** tries to buy a gun with your LTC...they are breaking a thousand federal laws before even getting into the nanny state's crap........
 
On the straw purchase issue, the guys are right. If your uncle filled out the Form 4473 and answered 'YES' to question 11.a and then signed the form, he has technically engaged in a straw purchase, even though his intentions are completely honorable, and has committed a federal felony. There are no other requirements that you be prohibited or anything else. Simply answering that question wrong is, by itself, a felony (per 18 USC 44 § 922(a)(6)).

The FFL dealer should have known better.
 
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jdubois said:
On the straw purchase issue, the guys are right. If your uncle filled out the Form 4473 and answered 'YES' to question 11.a and then signed the form, he has technically engaged in a straw purchase, even though his intentions are completely honorable, and has committed a federal felony. There are no other requirements that you be prohibited or anything else. Simply answering that question wrong is, by itself, a felony (per 18 USC 44 § 922(a)(6)).

The FFL dealer should have known better.
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Agreed, and the less said about it the better. <hint hint>
 
Zappa said:
On the paperwork I received with my LTC and PIN, it specifically stated that the PIN# is NOT to be written on the license.
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Not to be an ass, but your also supposed to get an LTC within 40 days as well by law. Tit for Tat, what is done versus what supposed to be done, well seems like they are destined to never to meet in the middle. [wink]
 
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Phaedo1982 said:
The transaction hasn't gone through and I'll make sure it stays at the shop until I'm fully licensed and can sign for it. Thank you to all the concerned citizens who have educated me on Federal Law!

I'll make sure that I educate the gun shop owner as well on my newly acquired knowledge of straw purchases and Federal Law.
Click to expand...

Just a final word: Due to the LTC PIN issue, the transaction was never completed and the form wasn't filled out by my relative.

I didn't even know what a straw purchase was and simply wanted to have the store hold the used revolver for me, but the owner said he couldn't unless I bought it in full. I asked him if my uncle could purchase it for me and the dealer said "Sure, as long as he has his license. It will just be more paperwork for you, to transfer it later on, but at least you'll get to shoot the gun with your uncle while you're waiting for the LTC to come in."

I didn't think anything of it... I started this topic to ask about the PINs on LTCs, but I guess I learned a little about the law as well. Scary the dealer didn't inform me of this. He either:

A) Didn't know about the law regarding a "straw purchase"
B) Knew about the law, but didn't consider this a "true" straw purchase
C) Gave me a break for having been in the military
D) Just didn't care and wanted to make a sale
 
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bought a gun this week at KTP and while filling out the paper work I realized that i didn't remember to bring the piece of paper with my pin number on it. I said "Oh s@#t" the salesman said whats wrong so I informed him of my situation. He said Oh thats a Massachusetts thing we don't need a pin number. lol So I was lucky on that one I guess.
 
nhams said:
Good choice of words. You can't be too careful, even though I still think people overreacted to your post.

I still don't think it would be a straw purchase. At what point does buying a gun for a son/daughter (or nephew) become a straw purchase, if the gun will be given to the child when he/she is of legal age (or when they receive their license)? Especially if the child (or nephew) will not be given total control over the gun until after it is legal?

Straw purchase laws are not meant for this situation.
Click to expand...

A straw purchase is buying a gun for someone other than yourself. [STRIKE]You cannot guy a gun as a gift. You cannot buy a gun with the intention to give it as a gift.[/STRIKE] straw purchase is defined as any purchase from a dealer holding a Federal Firearms License where the buyer conducting the transaction is acting as a proxy for another person. The law does not distinguish between someone who is purchasing on behalf of a person who legally cannot purchase or possess a firearm, and one who is not.
 
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dagwag77 said:
A straw purchase is buying a gun for someone other than yourself. You cannot guy a gun as a gift. You cannot buy a gun with the intention to give it as a gift. straw purchase is defined as any purchase from a dealer holding a Federal Firearms License where the buyer conducting the transaction is acting as a proxy for another person. The law does not distinguish between someone who is purchasing on behalf of a person who legally cannot purchase or possess a firearm, and one who is not.
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+1 Folks, there is A LOT of crappy info on this thread. I'm not at all getting on the OP, he wasn't attempting to do anything wrong and his only real "crime" was attempting to use logic to understand MA firearms law and thinking that firearms laws have some specific way that they are meant to be used. Firearms laws are used HOWEVER the DA feels he can get away with using them to whatever purpose he declares.

Anyway, the OP learned something valuable and avoided a nasty legal situation while also learning not to incriminate himself on the net.

In other words, all turned out well- This time. But when folks treat this place as a virtual wall upon which to toss their ignorant interpretation of the law, what we're left with is a confusing mess for newbies to sort out.

Therefore, unless you can cite the law or point people towards an accurate citation, STFU when it comes to legal advice!
 
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Raoul Duke said:
Therefore, unless you can cite the law or point people towards an accurate citation, STFU when it comes to legal advice!
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+1 to Raoul, this is NO PLACE to be giving YOUR INTERPRETATIONS of laws or what you think it should/shouldn't be. You WILL confuse someone who wants to follow the letter of the law!
 
Originally Posted by dagwag77
A straw purchase is buying a gun for someone other than yourself. You cannot guy a gun as a gift. You cannot buy a gun with the intention to give it as a gift. straw purchase is defined as any purchase from a dealer holding a Federal Firearms License where the buyer conducting the transaction is acting as a proxy for another person. The law does not distinguish between someone who is purchasing on behalf of a person who legally cannot purchase or possess a firearm, and one who is not.
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I remember Sara Brady getting entagled in this very issue a while back:

Sarah's Shocking Disclosure

Sarah Brady, Chair of the gun-ban lobby formerly known as HCI, may be in a little trouble with the law. And the reason why is quite surprising. According to the March 22 issue of the Daily News (N.Y.), Brady may have violated the type of gun-control law she and her organization regularly advocate. In her soon-to-be released book, "A Good Fight," the gun-ban advocate reveals that in 2000, she bought a hunting rifle at a Delaware gun shop for her son, who was 18 at the time. And while Brady carefully describes her experience, and the fact that the store clerk ran the required background check on her, there is no mention of the store also running a background check on her son - a requirement under Delaware state law.

Amy Stillwell, a spokeswoman for the gun-ban lobby that now carries Brady's name, explained to the Daily News that federal law does not require a background check on the son for this type of gift purchase, which is true. However, Delaware Justice Department spokeswoman Lori Sitler indicated that if Brady did not disclose the rifle was a gift for someone else, providing information for a background check on the recipient, then the purchase may have violated Delaware law. Sitler was quoted as saying, "You can't purchase a gun for someone else. That would be a 'straw purchase.' You've got a problem right there."
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dagwag77 said:
A straw purchase is buying a gun for someone other than yourself. You cannot guy a gun as a gift. You cannot buy a gun with the intention to give it as a gift. straw purchase is defined as any purchase from a dealer holding a Federal Firearms License where the buyer conducting the transaction is acting as a proxy for another person. The law does not distinguish between someone who is purchasing on behalf of a person who legally cannot purchase or possess a firearm, and one who is not.
Click to expand...

It specifically says on the back of form 4473 that you CAN buy a gun as a gift. Further more if you do you would answer yes to question 12a. One should really do their research before making legal statements like this.
 
straw purchases were covered in my license class have seen signs at shops too

And the shop should have let you put a deposit on it. Most good shops will take a layaway plan. You could pay a bit on it every week until you got your LTC and pay it off at that time.

I am wondering what shop this is and how they failed to spot the straw purchase and forced you to pay for the gun in full when you were not taking it home. They wont get my business.

Northshore Firearms even offers their own 6 month payment plan and you get to take it home that day!

Straw purchases also apply to friends moving up to mass from states like Virginia. ie having them buy something down there for you (nice shiny kimber 1911 perhaps), move into mass and then sell it/transfer it to you. Still a straw purchase. Still a trip to a federal prison. Remote, but the chance is real.
 
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