MA Gun Grab 2024: H.4885 - Passed legislature, headed to the governor

[Nightshift]

Okay. So, why hasn't it passed yet? What's the holdup?

Gotta learn to recognize sarcasm. Jeez.

 

[kijangus]

So, they have waited long enough to sneak this by in the dead of night... Anyone care to guess when it will happen?

Biggest upcoming Holiday is July 4th but I'm sure they're taking off that week so if I was a betting man Friday June 24th, they vote - wham, bam, thank you ma'am and go celebrate
the founding of the Republic and they do so with zero sense of the irony.

 

[EJFudd]

They don’t care.

They probably just can’t agree on how bad to screw us.

That is my feeling. Care about the relatively trivial state cost of implementation when the $56 Billion state budget is already blown to Hell by the illegals crisis? I doubt it. Care about lawsuits when we have already promised them multiple lawsuits just based on what we've seen from them to date? Nope. All the lawsuits will do is give them an excuse to increase the AG's budget and staff of anti's with more deranged leftist DimocRATS. They'd love that!

No, they are just waiting for the right moment to screw us to the wall for the most loud and devastating effect. It's a leftist virtue signalling thing. My leftist state is tougher on its citizens than your leftist state. MA wants to take the lead once again in anti-Constitutional infringement of our rights.

 

[pastera]

That is my feeling. Care about the relatively trivial state cost of implementation when the $56 Billion state budget is already blown to Hell by the illegals crisis? I doubt it. Care about lawsuits when we have already promised them multiple lawsuits just based on what we've seen from them to date? Nope. All the lawsuits will do is give them an excuse to increase the AG's budget and staff of anti's with more deranged leftist DimocRATS. They'd love that!

No, they are just waiting for the right moment to screw us to the wall for the most loud and devastating effect. It's a leftist virtue signalling thing. My leftist state is tougher on its citizens than your leftist state. MA wants to take the lead once again in anti-Constitutional infringement of our rights.

They have also learned that stepping even one tow over the line results in SCOTUS taking their power away.

Cargill just told them that statutory language cannot be reinterpreted to mean more than the common meaning of the words.
The Healy ban is now even more of a faux ban than it was the day she made the press announcement.

 

[CrackPot]

Meanwhile, earlier this week H.2361, banning all semiautomatic rifles and shotguns, was advanced out of the Public Safety and Homeland Security committee:

Bill H.2361

malegislature.gov

Linsky really is special. It also changes the definition of LEO that is used. Currently this is defined by a CMR and follows the federal definition used for LEOSA. They would change it to their own special definition. He also removed retired LEO from the class of special people which means you can count on MCOPA coming out against this.

 

[HorizontalHunter]

Cargill just told them that statutory language cannot be reinterpreted to mean more than the common meaning of the words.

It’s about freaking time we went back to reading the legislation as written instead of beauracrats interpreting it to mean what they want it to mean at the moment.

 

[HorizontalHunter]

Linsky really is special. It also changes the definition of LEO that is used. Currently this is defined by a CMR and follows the federal definition used for LEOSA. They would change it to their own special definition. He also removed retired LEO from the class of special people which means you can count on MCOPA coming out against this.

“Bannem all Linsky” is on crack.

 

[CrackPot]

“Bannem all Linsky” is on crack.

And he does not know how to file his federal tax returns either apparently

State rep racked up $154,000 in unpaid federal taxes

The IRS has filed a lien against a state representative for nonpayment of federal taxes

www.patriotledger.com

In the article he says he is current on his taxes and its all just a mistake that he can straighten out. He asserts the IRS always places liens if they think they are owed (this is false). Well, it is still not resolved







The lien still has not been discharged


And the last real property he owned he owned jointly with his sister (in Natick). He signed it over to his sister back in 2012. Betting he still lives there, with his sister...

 

[Woodsloafer]

Okay. So, why hasn't it passed yet? What's the holdup?

So they can scoot out after the legislative session ends (and they pass it last minute) and lie low while the "dust settles".

 

[Picton]

So they can scoot out after the legislative session ends (and they pass it last minute) and lie low while the "dust settles".

Why would they feel any need to do that? They're an overwhelmingly anti-RKBA legislature in a solidly anti-RKBA state.

What dust do you think they're worried about? Why would they need to scoot anywhere?

 

[EJFudd]

They have also learned that stepping even one tow over the line results in SCOTUS taking their power away.

Cargill just told them that statutory language cannot be reinterpreted to mean more than the common meaning of the words.
The Healy ban is now even more of a faux ban than it was the day she made the press announcement.

I respect you for being in the forefront in the fight to preserve our 2A rights here in MA, but I'm missing the point in how this post relates to when we can expect the MA Legislature to drop the hammer on us. What am I missing here?

 

[EJFudd]

So they can scoot out after the legislative session ends (and they pass it last minute) and lie low while the "dust settles".

Cowards!!!

 

[Woodsloafer]

Why would they feel any need to do that? They're an overwhelmingly anti-RKBA legislature in a solidly anti-RKBA state.

What dust do you think they're worried about? Why would they need to scoot anywhere?

Because they don't like constituents in their legislative offices lined up to complain no matter what controversial thing they're passing. Would you like all your students parents lined up to complain to you?

 

[GOAL]

Don't be in a hurry to see a bill! They aren't doing all this to make life easier on us.

 

[Picton]

Because they don't like constituents in their legislative offices lined up to complain no matter what controversial thing they're passing. Would you like all your students parents lined up to complain to you?

Hmm.

Yeah.

I just don't see it. I think there are, at most, about a thousand people who'd care enough to head up to Beacon Hill and "line up to complain" about this. And if they passed it at COB on Friday of a long weekend, I bet that number would be halved on Tuesday.

I don't buy that that's the reason. Sorry.

 

[mothybee]

Fixed it.

You forgot the days to minutes.

 

[pastera]

I respect you for being in the forefront in the fight to preserve our 2A rights here in MA, but I'm missing the point in how this post relates to when we can expect the MA Legislature to drop the hammer on us. What am I missing here?

Cargill makes it imperative that laws clearly delineate the boundaries of what is covered - no more reinterpreting the meaning of laws.
That coupled with Chevron being before the court means nebulous laws that are fleshed out through adaptable regulations is also, likely, out the window.
So if Mass wants any chance of passing anything that can stick, it will need to be narrow and clear.
And that is a standard they simply can't achieve

 

[42!]

Cargill makes it imperative that laws clearly delineate the boundaries of what is covered - no more reinterpreting the meaning of laws.
That coupled with Chevron being before the court means nebulous laws that are fleshed out through adaptable regulations is also, likely, out the window.
So if Mass wants any chance of passing anything that can stick, it will need to be narrow and clear.
And that is a standard they simply can't achieve

What? And make laws that are clear to the people? In Massachusetts? Can I get some of what you're smoking?

 

[EJFudd]

Cargill makes it imperative that laws clearly delineate the boundaries of what is covered - no more reinterpreting the meaning of laws.
That coupled with Chevron being before the court means nebulous laws that are fleshed out through adaptable regulations is also, likely, out the window.
So if Mass wants any chance of passing anything that can stick, it will need to be narrow and clear.
And that is a standard they simply can't achieve

Thank you. Now I see your reasoning in regard to the timeframe... i.e., why you think this combined anti-2A bill is taking so long to produce.

I still think that you and some other members are giving our beloved MA Legislators more credit for actually caring about recent SCOTUS decisions than is really happening, but I acknowledge that my respect for our MA Legislator's intelligence and trustworthiness is somewhere below that of fortune tellers, used car salesman and that illegals-looking guy who came to my door the other day supposedly selling solar. In other words, in the toilet.

Bottom line is that I can't explain the delay, but I'm getting awfully sick of it. GOAL says to be thankful for the delay. I say bullshit. Bring it on! Bring on the fight now while I am still alive and semi-healthy and able to fight the bastards.

 

[pastera]

Thank you. Now I see your reasoning in regard to the timeframe... i.e., why you think this combined anti-2A bill is taking so long to produce.

I still think that you and some other members are giving our beloved MA Legislators more credit for actually caring about recent SCOTUS decisions than is really happening, but I acknowledge that my respect for our MA Legislator's intelligence and trustworthiness is somewhere below that of fortune tellers, used car salesman and that illegals-looking guy who came to my door the other day supposedly selling solar. In other words, in the toilet.

Bottom line is that I can't explain the delay, but I'm getting awfully sick of it. GOAL says to be thankful for the delay. I say bullshit. Bring it on! Bring on the fight now while I am still alive and semi-healthy and able to fight the bastards.

GOAL has access to insights and information we don't.

If you think Mass doesn't care about about scotus, you're wrong.
They very much care and are forced to comply - but they resist as much as possible while not crossing the line where scotus would be compelled to accept a cert petition.
As each opinion from scotus tightens the reigns on our legislators power, they need to wordsmith the text again to try to avoid an immediate loss.
Healy reinterpreted the 94 AWB language away from its established statutory and regulatory meanings.
This new bill attempts to write that interpretation into law. However, under Cargill they must write a clear statute that encompasses unthought of countermeasures around the law while not being ambiguous enough to get tossed.

Reading the dissent in Cargill, you can see Sotomayor struggling to confuse the issue and twist language in order to show that bump firing by handholding is legal whereas stabilizing the stock with a bump stock during the same bump fire action creates an illegal machinegun.
She continues to refer to a single forward pressure on the rifle with a bumpstock being the single function but doesn't explain why the exact same forward pressure required for unassisted bumpfire doesn't reach the threshold of a single function.

If a very savvy legal mind on the Supreme Court cannot clearly and concisely put into text a difference, how do you think the Mass general court's slobs can hope to do so?

 

[EJFudd]

GOAL has access to insights and information we don't.

Maybe so, but don't get me going on GOAL. I have to hold my nose while writing them checks (but, dense me, I do still write them checks).

If you think Mass doesn't care about about SCOTUS, you're wrong.

I have not seen even a hint of evidence of the MA Legislature respecting or caring a hoot about SCOTUS on 2A (other than possibly this long delay on producing the combined bill as you have postulated). The only thing we've seen in the past is MA trying to work around SCOTUS rulings as much as possible so as to keep our state as restricted as possible. If they had actually respected the words and meaning of any of the earlier SCOTUS decisions on 2A, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

Last comment: If the MA Legislature is working harder and longer on the combined bill, it is only to make it more bulletproof against being challenged in court. That's why I am confused about why GOAL is telling us all to embrace and appreciate the delay. Maybe that attitude and logic works for some of us, but not for me.

 

[Picton]

What? And make laws that are clear to the people? In Massachusetts? Can I get some of what you're smoking?

The point is that this is one possible explanation for the delay, not that it reflects what the legislature actually wants. I think Pastera would agree with you.

Here's what's happening, according to some of us: the State is worried about getting sued. Cargill gives them very good reason to be worried about getting sued. Thus, Cargill matters. So the State, which has always relied on fuzzy writing in their legislation to claim more power than they should, cannot do that anymore; the delay, then, stems from the State attempting to craft something clear enough to pass the Cargill test, but also consequential enough to be able to claim We DiD sOmEtHiNg AbOuT gUnZz! while also passing the Bruen test.

That is proving to be a difficult nut to crack.

Here's what's happening, according to others of us: the State is completely unconcerned about SCOTUS (despite Mariano admitting he's concerned about SCOTUS) and is trying to craft legislation even worse than the wildly compromised legislation that barely passed before (despite knowing it'll have to pass again, somehow), or that they're sitting on the bill because they're concerned about backlash (in a state with no effective firearms lobby to speak of, relative to the VAST number of constituents who'd support the idea of this legislation). The delay, then, stems from... well, I don't know. Because nobody here has provided a convincing reason for the delay.

I see more evidence for the first paragraph than the second. YMMV.

 

[pastera]

The state is rewriting large portions of the firearms code - in doing so they invalidate the rulings and case law dependent on those statutes.
So it becomes a blank slate for those looking to challenge - and challengers are armed with an increasing arsenal of tools handed down from Scotus.

If they leave things as is then we need to find novel arguments to challenge because the courts really don't like to revisit cases.
Once they change, if the law gets struck it's gone. It doesn't revert to the old version, it just goes away. That's why judges will give states time before their opinion goes into effect in order to allow new laws complying with the opinion to be put in place.
SCOTUS doesn't normally do that so if they strike down a licensing law in a state that state is defacto CC until they enact a compliant licensing scheme.
When Caetano was released, mass rushed a bill regulating stun guns since anyone could carry them wherever in the interim.

 

[42!]

The point is that this is one possible explanation for the delay, not that it reflects what the legislature actually wants. I think Pastera would agree with you.

Here's what's happening, according to some of us: the State is worried about getting sued. Cargill gives them very good reason to be worried about getting sued. Thus, Cargill matters. So the State, which has always relied on fuzzy writing in their legislation to claim more power than they should, cannot do that anymore; the delay, then, stems from the State attempting to craft something clear enough to pass the Cargill test, but also consequential enough to be able to claim We DiD sOmEtHiNg AbOuT gUnZz! while also passing the Bruen test.

That is proving to be a difficult nut to crack.

Here's what's happening, according to others of us: the State is completely unconcerned about SCOTUS (despite Mariano admitting he's concerned about SCOTUS) and is trying to craft legislation even worse than the wildly compromised legislation that barely passed before (despite knowing it'll have to pass again, somehow), or that they're sitting on the bill because they're concerned about backlash (in a state with no effective firearms lobby to speak of, relative to the VAST number of constituents who'd support the idea of this legislation). The delay, then, stems from... well, I don't know. Because nobody here has provided a convincing reason for the delay.

I see more evidence for the first paragraph than the second. YMMV.

Dude, it was a joke, relax

 

[Picton]

Dude, it was a joke, relax

Sure.

But this is a public board, not just a two-way conversation, and your joke reflects what a lot of people literally think. There are a host of posters in this thread that need to read what I wrote. If you're not of them? Cool beans.

 

[Woodsloafer]

You guys spend too much time thinking, writing, and debating about this, it will be what it will be and it's out of our control until then, and maybe even after that. Enjoy the summer months in the meantime, life is too short. My last post on this till it's out.

 

[42!]

Sure.

But this is a public board, not just a two-way conversation, and your joke reflects what a lot of people literally think. There are a host of posters in this thread that need to read what I wrote. If you're not of them? Cool beans.

That's what the emoji is for, see it's me laughing , hahahahaha

 

[pastera]

What? And make laws that are clear to the people? In Massachusetts? Can I get some of what you're smoking?

Mass will continue to resist but their avenues of abuse are getting closed off.
They will not be able to write something that has an accepted legal definition and claim a different meaning after the fact.
Can they ban bumpstocks - at this time yes because the majority opinion didn't state that they were protected and the concurrence made it clear that at least that judge felt the intent of congress covered them in the NFA.
But they will need to clearly define what they mean by a bump stock and anything outside that definition will be good to go.
A nebulous definition of devices that increase rate of fire will very likely get the whole thing shut down since both the concurrence and dissent agreed that the act of bumpfiring IS NOT in itself the creation of a regulated arm.

So they can call out bumpstocks and devices that use recoil energy resisted by the non-trigger hand to cause a trigger reset through a reciprocating action of the rifle.
But if someone comes up with a different method they will need to add verbiage to describe that mode of action.
What if I create a device that has a lever in front of the trigger that uses the gas impulse to push my finger off the trigger but it is separate from the trigger (not an FRT)?
It's not a forced reset trigger since the trigger is not forcing the reset.
And the finger is clearly getting operated upon by a mechanism to allow faster reset - and the dissent speaks to contrivences like rubber bands and belt loops that do the same as being legally distinct from bumpstocks and FRTs.

So, yes the legislature is confined by legal precedent especially when running up against Thomas' clearly written opinions.

 

[dixidawg]

In your opinion, would they be able to write their own definition of firearm?

 

[JDL]

That is my feeling. Care about the relatively trivial state cost of implementation when the $56 Billion state budget is already blown to Hell by the illegals crisis? I doubt it. Care about lawsuits when we have already promised them multiple lawsuits just based on what we've seen from them to date? Nope. All the lawsuits will do is give them an excuse to increase the AG's budget and staff of anti's with more deranged leftist DimocRATS. They'd love that!

No, they are just waiting for the right moment to screw us to the wall for the most loud and devastating effect. It's a leftist virtue signalling thing. My leftist state is tougher on its citizens than your leftist state. MA wants to take the lead once again in anti-Constitutional infringement of our rights.

You guys spend too much time thinking, writing, and debating about this, it will be what it will be and it's out of our control until then, and maybe even after that. Enjoy the summer months in the meantime, life is too short. My last post on this till it's out.

Wise word's