Monadnock & NES needs your help

Jttgspring said:
Sorry you were injured in the matter. The end result is absolutely devastating for the club. Before you go straight to name calling, I donated to the clubs legal efforts. I was only arguing that club seems to have put themselves in a position to get gronk spiked in court. Older Massachusetts types are taking over NH, all gun related activities should take notice. Did the club ever ask or attempt to buy said land spike? I believe the court decided it wetlands…so its wetlands. Regardless of your

Sorry you were injured by my comments. The club got dunked on for sure. No club would have that type of cash, clearly a fatal blow. I did donate to the clubs legal defense (even if you want to call me names).Problem is no matter what the gis survey shows, court says its wetlands, amd not the clubs property. Thats a problem unless or until another court says something different. I fully understand and believe that no-one acted maliciously on the clubs behalf. I believe the club thought that was their land, and that therefore they could build a pad and pavilion. Makes sense 100%. Not sure where or how I ever implied otherwise. The reality is some honest mistakes can carry real consequences, and the bottom line is in this case the fines from those consequences were brutal. Perhaps a conversation before hand changes things, or gives an inkling of trouble. Hindsight as they say is always 20/20. Id not be shocked to hear eventually that the town, neighbor, hell even the judge were in cahoots. NH needs to take notice, MA is headed north, this type of activity will increase. Live free or die, is long since dead.now its adapt or die.
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It's utterly pointless to debate this with you, as you've already set your mind, but yes the club did offer to buy the spur. As for wetlands, again: BS
 
namedpipes said:
It's utterly pointless to debate this with you, as you've already set your mind, but yes the club did offer to buy the spur. As for wetlands, again: BS
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Did they offer to buy the spur before or after they built stuff on it?
 
You’re right about the shit food in that area. Nice looking places really shitty expensive food...

As far as the neighbor f***ing themselves on the wetlands, that’s exactly what he did..

My neighbors basically did the same thing.
 
whacko said:
Did they offer to buy the spur before or after they built stuff on it?
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I guess you missed the part where nobody, including the actual owners of that spur of land, realized it did not belong to the club already? Yes. As soon as that was discovered, the club made a fair offer for a small chunk of otherwise useless land.
 
xtry51 said:
The club offered double the market price for the land AND equal amount of land that woukd have extended the neighbors property in a useful way. The neighbor declined and hired and anti-2a lawyer.
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I think I finally understand the situation, it only took me 471 posts!

Neighbors didn't want the land. They were just happy to see the club screwed up so they could do what they did. It is unfortunate, but the club made the mistake of building on someone else's property. Had they not done that, they'd still be shooting there today. Damn shame.

A bit short sighted for the neighbor. I hope all the club members are around long enough to see the neighbor's karma come back to haunt him.
 
I'm not sure what the club could have done, other than just be super paranoid and just avoid doing any expansion, because unknown reasons that might become known in the future. I'm sure if anyone at the time had any inkling that in the future, someone would successfully make a claim that they now own 6 acres of the land that no one at the time knew they owned, that they wouldn't have proceeded.
 
Prepper said:
I'm not sure what the club could have done, other than just be super paranoid and just avoid doing any expansion, because unknown reasons that might become known in the future. I'm sure if anyone at the time had any inkling that in the future, someone would successfully make a claim that they now own 6 acres of the land that no one at the time knew they owned, that they wouldn't have proceeded.
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Bottom line, they should have not built on someone else's property. I know members of that club will tell me I'm some liberal a-hole for thinking that, but it's just personal responsibility. I am sure I would not put up a shed on my neighbor's property because the responsibility is on me to make sure I don't. I feel bad that the club did this, but its tough to see as the neighbor's fault. Are they anti? Could they have worked to fix this? Yes, but it seems that the root cause should have been prevented by the club.

Is the club able to use the property for other non-shooting uses, or are they banned from developing it until fines are paid?
 
wilson911 said:
Bottom line, they should have not built on someone else's property. I know members of that club will tell me I'm some liberal a-hole for thinking that, but it's just personal responsibility. I am sure I would not put up a shed on my neighbor's property because the responsibility is on me to make sure I don't. I feel bad that the club did this, but its tough to see as the neighbor's fault. Are they anti? Could they have worked to fix this? Yes, but it seems that the root cause should have been prevented by the club.

Is the club able to use the property for other non-shooting uses, or are they banned from developing it until fines are paid?
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You should probably go back and read the rest of the thread. It isn't as if the club was like, "yeah, F that neighbor we see they have some spur of land going across our archery area, so lets excavate it and flatten it all just to F with them". No one had any thought in their mind, whether the club or the neighbor, that there was land owned by someone else.

If you can present evidence that old town records obviously showed that spur there, that may be something. Perhaps it exists, I don't know, but it would surprise me since it would have been easy to discover such a plot plan showed the spur there. It shows that NOW. But, what about then?
 
namedpipes said:
I guess you missed the part where nobody, including the actual owners of that spur of land, realized it did not belong to the club already? Yes. As soon as that was discovered, the club made a fair offer for a small chunk of otherwise useless land.
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I was not being an ass was asking for info. I didn't have time to read 9 pages of posts. Lol
 
Prepper said:
You should probably go back and read the rest of the thread. It isn't as if the club was like, "yeah, F that neighbor we see they have some spur of land going across our archery area, so lets excavate it and flatten it all just to F with them". No one had any thought in their mind, whether the club or the neighbor, that there was land owned by someone else.

If you can present evidence that old town records obviously showed that spur there, that may be something. Perhaps it exists, I don't know, but it would surprise me since it would have been easy to discover such a plot plan showed the spur there. It shows that NOW. But, what about then?
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You're right, I guess to be fully educated I should read the whole thread. And I DO NOT think the club was doing anything to be vindictive to the neighbor. This is just a situation that really knowing your plot lines is important. Because, honest mistake or not, it wasn't the club's property.
 
wilson911 said:
You're right, I guess to be fully educated I should read the whole thread. And I DO NOT think the club was doing anything to be vindictive to the neighbor. This is just a situation that really knowing your plot lines is important. Because, honest mistake or not, it wasn't the club's property.
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Which is why I'm wondering whatever town/country records at the time showed. Was it even possible to figure out it wasn't club property? I don't know.

Apparently, the Perry's didn't know either... the expansion was there for years after it was completed, and very obviously there, with no issues brought up by the Perry's. If I owned some large plot of land and I heard excavators down towards the far side of it, I'd be like WTF is that... and wander down to see if it is being done on my property or outside of it.
 
Prepper said:
Which is why I'm wondering whatever town/country records at the time showed. Was it even possible to figure out it wasn't club property? I don't know.

Apparently, the Perry's didn't know either... the expansion was there for years after it was completed, and very obviously there, with no issues brought up by the Perry's. If I owned some large plot of land and I heard excavators down towards the far side of it, I'd be like WTF is that... and wander down to see if it is being done on my property or outside of it.
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All true. This reminds me of a Scooby Doo episode where the meddling kids saved a mansion by showing that the plot map was being read upside down. Zoinks.
 
Prepper said:
Apparently, the Perry's didn't know either... the expansion was there for years after it was completed, and very obviously there, with no issues brought up by the Perry's. If I owned some large plot of land and I heard excavators down towards the far side of it, I'd be like WTF is that... and wander down to see if it is being done on my property or outside of it.
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To be fair the rotation of the gun range from E/W orientation to N/S was the recent change. However, it was done within the boundaries of the well used, long documented MRCGi Archery Range/Trail. This was in use and established decades ago.
 
SERE said:
To be fair the rotation of the gun range from E/W orientation to N/S was the recent change. However, it was done within the boundaries of the well used, long documented MRCGi Archery Range/Trail. This was in use and established decades ago.
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I thought that was brought up in court but nobody provided a map or pictures etc. as proof.
 
SERE said:
To be fair the rotation of the gun range from E/W orientation to N/S was the recent change. However, it was done within the boundaries of the well used, long documented MRCGi Archery Range/Trail. This was in use and established decades ago.
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​

History of Monadnock Rod & Gun Club​

The Monadnock Rod & Gun Club, Inc., was founded in January 1947, with about a dozen charter members, but as the original charter has been lost through the years, their exact number and names are not presently available. The club has a dual purpose, social and sports. The first meeting was held on January 20, that year, at which Rufus S. Fenerty, III, William Smith, and Dana Perry, Jr., were named a committee to draw up the By laws for presentation at the first regular meeting, January 30, 1947. At the latter meeting the By-Laws were approved and accepted and the club's first officers were elected.​



This is speculation on my part based in part on the club history as posted on their website:

I'm not sure if that Perry is the same person as the Perry causing all the problems currently, but it's not unreasonable to believe that the property lines were walked at the time (almost 75 years ago) and that Dana Perry participated in or agreed to laying out the archery trails, almost certainly knowing they transited some of his own property. Why would he care? It was his club.

That doesn't excuse the inadvertent trespass now, but it certainly could plausibly explain why nobody knew the land in question didn't belong to the club.
 
Fixxah said:
I thought that was brought up in court but nobody provided a map or pictures etc. as proof.
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And that is where everything went to shit. What was proof? But that was the first instance, that the Perrys claim went unnoticed, of using that land. How could you miss a trail of archery targets on your land you claim to use since you bought it. The Perry's are lower than scum.
 
I also really liked the club and what they did for the shooting community.

This points out the need to have an area surveyed before building anything on any property. That might have avoided the entire problem, but hind-sight is always 20-20.

One always has to keep in mind that there may be vindictive neighbors/gov't agencies who will look for any excuse to screw you . . . more especially if you have anything to do with firearms!

This situation reminds me of an argument that I had with a corporate attorney when we were troubleshooting a product problem that was discovered after the product was out in the market. We shut down production, met to discuss how to repair them going forward. The corporate attorney said that if the company were sued, the company would simply pay them off. My counter argument was "not if you get a Ralph Nader type complainant!"! For the younger crowd, Nader took on Ford and others as a "mission" . . . money wouldn't satisfy him, but destroying a company/product would be his only goal. Here we have anti-gunners whose mission was to kill the club . . . the landowner and perhaps some town officials who weren't interested in fixing the problem, but to bury the club. Sadly they succeeded.
 
namedpipes said:
​

History of Monadnock Rod & Gun Club​

The Monadnock Rod & Gun Club, Inc., was founded in January 1947, with about a dozen charter members, but as the original charter has been lost through the years, their exact number and names are not presently available. The club has a dual purpose, social and sports. The first meeting was held on January 20, that year, at which Rufus S. Fenerty, III, William Smith, and Dana Perry, Jr., were named a committee to draw up the By laws for presentation at the first regular meeting, January 30, 1947. At the latter meeting the By-Laws were approved and accepted and the club's first officers were elected.​



This is speculation on my part based in part on the club history as posted on their website:

I'm not sure if that Perry is the same person as the Perry causing all the problems currently, but it's not unreasonable to believe that the property lines were walked at the time (almost 75 years ago) and that Dana Perry participated in or agreed to laying out the archery trails, almost certainly knowing they transited some of his own property. Why would he care? It was his club.

That doesn't excuse the inadvertent trespass now, but it certainly could plausibly explain why nobody knew the land in question didn't belong to the club.
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I had noticed that too. The Perry last name seems to be around the area in many places and I'm guessing it is the same family, but I of course don't know how distantly they are related. That name is also on a large tract of land off of Route 124 as well as a subdivision with their last name on the roadway to it. It's not like they just moved in here from Massachusetts with no history here, then were all like "OMG that mean evil club over there suddenly took our land".
 
Assuming the judgement and cleanup exceed the assets of the club, the best thing to do might be to dissolve and walk away.

Another group of individuals, potentially involving the same people, could locate some land elsewhere for a new club. If so, they should use the approach Disney used to buy land for DisneyWorld - use proxy buyers and don't tell anyone who is buying the land or what it's for. Establish the use as a target range by right before doing any building that requires permits. Use some smart lawyers and survey the property to make sure nobody f***s it up this time.
 
JJ4 said:
Assuming the judgement and cleanup exceed the assets of the club, the best thing to do might be to dissolve and walk away.

Another group of individuals, potentially involving the same people, could locate some land elsewhere for a new club. If so, they should use the approach Disney used to buy land for DisneyWorld - use proxy buyers and don't tell anyone who is buying the land or what it's for. Establish the use as a target range by right before doing any building that requires permits. Use some smart lawyers and survey the property to make sure nobody f***s it up this time.
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Dissolve and walk away might give the perrys the land. The judgment puts a lien on the property, so the club can't get any money from selling the property, it would all go to the town and perrys (lien holders). Best to sell to the worst possible alternative use by right (Avalon apartments, 40B, pig farm, etc.) and have the town/perrys get the money from the sale.
 
Len-2A Training said:
Dissolve and walk away might give the perrys the land. The judgment puts a lien on the property, so the club can't get any money from selling the property, it would all go to the town and perrys (lien holders). Best to sell to the worst possible alternative use by right (Avalon apartments, 40B, pig farm, etc.) and have the town/perrys get the money from the sale.
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I like the 40B.
Won't seem like so much of a victory when their house is getting broken into and cars stolen a couple of times a week .
That and 97 percent of the town's police calls are coming from there per year.
Happened with just 20 40B units in the town I'm from.
Hey but you got the shooting range shut down. Rejoice .
 
JJ4 said:
Assuming the judgement and cleanup exceed the assets of the club, the best thing to do might be to dissolve and walk away.

Another group of individuals, potentially involving the same people, could locate some land elsewhere for a new club. If so, they should use the approach Disney used to buy land for DisneyWorld - use proxy buyers and don't tell anyone who is buying the land or what it's for. Establish the use as a target range by right before doing any building that requires permits. Use some smart lawyers and survey the property to make sure nobody f***s it up this time.
Click to expand...

There are always ways to f*** with a club, right or wrong. If no reason exist, for a small fee you can make one up.

If you want to know the real reason, gun crowd are by and large uber law abiding cucks who just give up and walk away. Being vindictive, spiteful bunch of a**h***s has its advantages.
 
JJ4 said:
Assuming the judgement and cleanup exceed the assets of the club, the best thing to do might be to dissolve and walk away.

Another group of individuals, potentially involving the same people, could locate some land elsewhere for a new club. If so, they should use the approach Disney used to buy land for DisneyWorld - use proxy buyers and don't tell anyone who is buying the land or what it's for. Establish the use as a target range by right before doing any building that requires permits. Use some smart lawyers and survey the property to make sure nobody f***s it up this time.
Click to expand...

Some other group recently tried to build a range in the area (Ridgeline was it?) and got shut down hard, didn't stand a chance. I doubt we'll ever see a new outdoor range created in NH, unless it is some guys in their back yard.
 

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