Funding the trust can be this easy:
If you feel better adding a witness or notary, knock yourself out.
IA(STILL)NAL.
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NFA Trusts
- Thread starter ADCoviello89
- Start date
Funding the trust can be this easy:
If you feel better adding a witness or notary, knock yourself out.
IA(STILL)NAL.
It's like anything else - you can pay however much or as little as you want. Quality will vary with price, and some prices include additional services. That being said, many providers overcharge and some undercharge. Diligent research will generally go a long way.
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I have my brother, my brother-in-law, my son (a minor), and one of my friends as responsible persons and my wife and I are co-trustees. Each person has a copy of the trust and copies of each of the cancelled tax stamps for my SBR, SBS, suppressors, and machine guns. You do need to have others listed in your trust as either responsible persons (successors who are legally permitted to own and possess NFA firearms) or trustees (individuals who have the right to own, purchase, or take immediate possession of your firearms), otherwise the BATFE might consider your trust a sham. Also, you should only use the bank account for NFA related items.
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Two attorneys I have consulted with who specialize in firearms law (Derrick DeBrose, Esq.--http://ohiogunlawyer.com/about and George L. Lyon, Jr., Esq.-- https://www.arsenalattorneys.com/firearms-lawyers/gun-attorneys) advised me to open a bank account specifically for the purchase of firearms for the purpose of establishing ownership. While opening a bank account in the name of the trust does not protect you against liability, it shows that the trust is the owner of the firearm. You do not need an EIN and the only tax payer ID that you need is your own social security number or that of the other trustee(s). You do not need to file yearly tax returns as you would with an L.L.C. or S-corporation.
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To transfer your firearms into the NFA trust you must file a Form 4 (http://www.guntrustlawyer.net/gun_trust_faq).
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I opened a business checking account with Middlesex Savings for my trust -
- No fees, no minimum balance
- No taxpayer id needed; could use my own SSN since it is a "revokable" rather than "irrevokable" trust
- No need to file a separate tax return, since it uses my own SSN
- No interest paid, therefore, no tax implications
- Very nice treatment at the bank, and helpful customer service
- No fees, no minimum balance
- No taxpayer id needed; could use my own SSN since it is a "revokable" rather than "irrevokable" trust
- No need to file a separate tax return, since it uses my own SSN
- No interest paid, therefore, no tax implications
- Very nice treatment at the bank, and helpful customer service
Incomplete advice.
" How do I transfer a gun into an NFA trust? An NFA weapon is transferred by means of an ATF Form 4. A non-NFA weapon may be transferred by a bill of sale."
1. Having a bank account does not prove ownership.
2. Despite your bank account, a person still must complete the FA10 in MA. This negates any advantage the bank account offered.
3. The assignment page determines what the trust owns.
There is no reason to do this, as a trustee has the power to acquire (and dispose of) assets for the trust.
FWIW, there's a big difference between "firearms law" and the NFA. None of the big NFA law firms recommend bank accounts. Do as you will, but when advising others, I cite the actual text, not "this guy told me." YMMV.
Asaltweapon
NES Member
This is 100% accurate. The only down side is that you must use the account at least once a year. It could be a deposit or withdrawal. Middlesex frowns on idle accounts but does send a letter to you as a reminder.
Fact is there is no downside to having a separate trust account. All that was needed was a copy of the trust to prove that one existed.
I don't think anyone cares about the FA-10 BS, that's not really the point, it's not even relevant, really. I think some lawyers brayed about the bank account thing in the past because its a legal toilet papering scheme for Trusts with regards to common/family/estate law,etc. They are applying "old school" thinking to the trust process with regards to trying to protect the assets within that container by showing a clean chain of payment and possession of that item by the trust- eg, for cases involving death/probate/wills/divorce, that kind of thing. If you're simply using it as a legal trash can to throw NFA items in, it's probably not necessary.
-Mike
If that was true then BATFE would reject all trust based stamp applications in MA. They tried to do this at one point, until a lawyer went through some pains to get this "corrected".
Just because CJIS doesn't recognize trusts doesn't mean that trusts cannot own firearms. An FA-10 is proof of ownership the way a Mickey Mouse Club card is the same as a drivers license. FA-10s are a gun control phantasm, not anything actually important.
-Mike
Asaltweapon
NES Member
I get that part and Mike is right that I don't care about the fa-10 part at this time however, I do not have long term plans to stay in this state and a member of my trust lives in a state where I own property and a home that does allow suppressors. I also had conversations with counsel on what I wanted to do with my trust and he drafted it accordingly. Why would I not take the advice I paid for after having the conversations?
The bank account didn't cost me a single penny to open so I did it. If I had to pay fees like most other money grubbing banks then I would have done things differently.
Based on a post in another thread vs. what I see in this one, I'm confused...
As of today (pre-July 13th), does a Form 1 require CLEO sign off?
If yes, I'll probably wait a couple years, even with the extra hassles involved. Planning to make a run for the NH border once the kids graduate Mass colleges.
As of today (pre-July 13th), does a Form 1 require CLEO sign off?
If yes, I'll probably wait a couple years, even with the extra hassles involved. Planning to make a run for the NH border once the kids graduate Mass colleges.
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
lancecolonel
NES Member
maybe this has been answered but i want to be sure......if you get a new trust before 7/13 nobody on it needs to be photographed and fingerprinted, but after 7/13 everyone added needs those procedures done?
MachineHead
NES Member
If I form a trust and get a tax stamp application in before 7/13 does that grandfather me when applying for post 7/13 stamps in avoiding the photo/fingerprint/CLEO notification?
Presuming you are filing with the ATF - yes. This has nothing to do with the validity of a trust, just the processing of submissions to the ATF. If you do plan on filing with them, you'd want to get stated on this process sooner rather than later. Don't wait till July if you don't need to.
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Only the application filed before 7/13 will be grandfathered. New applications (after 7/13) must follow the new process.
Technically, the trigger is the date of filing, not the date you establish the trust.
All Forms submitted after 13 Jul will require all responsible persons to be printed/photo'd and fill out the "Responsible Person" form, even if the trust was established before 13 Jul.
I've been debating setting one up for a while. I do have a couple lowers I could probably assign to this if I can meet the deadline...think I'm going to go ahead with that. Thanks everyone (esp. ScottS) for all of the information.
Do you have to engrave non-NFA firearms that belong to the trust?
Do you have to engrave non-NFA firearms that belong to the trust?
No. Engraving is only required for the maker of the firearm. That's you, in the case of a Form 1 SBR, for example, and the good folks at Ithaca, for grandad's Model 37. They've already done that.
Grendizer138
NES Member
I've been dragging my feet on this and finally sent in a check and trust info to RockMaple.
My main interest in establishing a trust was to protect my assets, but I might as well build an SBR as well. I have a lower, can I file the form 1 now (pre-13July) and build at a later date?
BTW, thanks to BigBlue, ScottS, and others for taking the time to help us novices navigate this.
My main interest in establishing a trust was to protect my assets, but I might as well build an SBR as well. I have a lower, can I file the form 1 now (pre-13July) and build at a later date?
BTW, thanks to BigBlue, ScottS, and others for taking the time to help us novices navigate this.
Sure. There's no "build timeline." Plus, based on the current backlog, it will be at least 4 months or more between filing and getting the approved form back, so there's a pad built-in right there. And that number is getting logarithmically larger as the deadline approaches. SilencerShop showed pictures on their website this week of 95 POUNDS of Form 4s mailed in one day, and another 75 POUNDS mailed in the next. That's a hell of a backlog. "Extra time" will be the least of our worries.
"We all stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before us." Glad to be any help I can.
MachineHead
NES Member
Definitely going to move on this. Thanks for the information, guys.
