Pick Me a Pump Shotgun

Captain Junebug said:
www.creditdonkey.com

23 Home Invasion Statistics You Should Be Afraid Of

Home invasions aren't always violent. 11% of burglars even remove a door or window while the occupants are home. The average loss is around $2,799 per home invasion.
www.creditdonkey.com www.creditdonkey.com

"What rooms do offenders usually hit first? A majority of offenders head straight to the master bedroom. Many homeowners leave their most valuable items in this room. The typical items include cash, jewelry, and weapons. In the master bedroom, they often head to the nightstand and closet first." (source)

"What time of day does the most crime occur? The most common time for crime by an adult to occur is at 10 PM. The most active time for adult criminals is between 8 PM and 12 PM. Juvenile criminals, on the other hand, are the most active between 3 and 4 PM." (source)

I can only speak for myself but my bedroom is 12' x 13.5'. I get up at 5:30 AM and in bed by 9:00 PM every night. I'm 64, started hunting and handling firearms at age 5 (1962) with my father, still have the Ithaca 37 he gave me. Hunted all my life and was a licensed NYS Hunting Guide for a decade and constantly shot skeet and target practiced. If someone manages to get inside my bedroom and can evade 7 rounds of "slam-fire", that individual would be the luckiest person on the planet. If there is more than one, I have a fully loaded Browning BPS Stalker 10 gauge "backup" loaded with 00 Buckshot for round two. If they can still proceed into my room after that then it's time for the Glock 23 and 4 full mags ready to go with one in the chamber. If that fails to stop the horde then I grab my Sig P230 and go down in a hail of bullets but hopefully I can take a final swing with my tanto bladed Bladetech Mike Vellekamp assault knife before succumbing! ; )
However, if I ever heard anyone inside my house I would not go outside my bedroom to play hero; I would just call the police and hope I don't have to pull the trigger and have the police to apprehend the criminal.

While I fully agree with your assessment for the downrange scenario, it just would apply in my case and statistically it would be uncommon.
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You can get more shots off more quickly and more likely on target w/ an AR15/SBR/Bullpup than you ever will w/ a pump doing slam-fire, even in a 12' x 13.5'bedroom. They're just as easy to store and maneuver as a pump and easier to operate. In the time it takes you take get to all those backups (you won't) you'd still be on the first mag of the AR. I agree re not going out and playing hero but if I'm hunkered down waiting, I'd ten times rather have 30 rounds of .223 pointed at the door than 7 rounds in a pump.
 
Buck F said:
You can get more shots off more quickly and more likely on target w/ an AR15/SBR/Bullpup than you ever will w/ a pump doing slam-fire, even in a 12' x 13.5'bedroom. They're just as easy to store and maneuver as a pump and easier to operate. In the time it takes you take get to all those backups (you won't) you'd still be on the first mag of the AR. I agree re not going out and playing hero but if I'm hunkered down waiting, I'd ten times rather have 30 rounds of .223 pointed at the door than 7 rounds in a pump.
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"It is reported that American units armed with shotguns had higher “body counts” than similar units without shotguns."

"While the M14 and M16 were the primary infantry small arms of the Vietnam War, the various combat shotguns also provided valuable service to our fighting men on many occasions. In certain combat situations, there is no deadlier arm than a slide-action shotgun loaded with buckshot. Many Viet Cong and North Vietnamese discovered what German troops found out in the trenches of France during the World War I and what the Japanese realized in the jungles of the Pacific during World War II: A determined American with a shotgun is a fearsome opponent indeed!"

www.americanrifleman.org

An Official Journal Of The NRA | Combat Shotguns Of The Vietnam War

Shotguns with familiar names—Ithaca, Remington, Winchester, Savage and Stevens—served American troops with distinction in the steaming jungles of Vietnam.
www.americanrifleman.org www.americanrifleman.org

"Nothing else would do the job with the deadly efficiency of nine lead pellets of “double ought” buckshot blasting out more than a thousand feet per second. And a quick pump of the action instantly brought more if needed."

"Not every soldier in Vietnam carried a shotgun, but many of those who did were the men who looked danger dead in the eye. They walked point on deep recon patrols through the elephant grass, along the rice paddies and in the jungle. They were on the streets of Hue City and other cities, and patrol boat crew members on the Mekong Delta who stopped suspicious boats, boarded barrel-first… and when it was necessary to shoot, they were ready. That was the beauty of a combat shotgun. While there were plenty of weapons in the field that could fire farther and faster, nothing packed a wallop up close like a 12-gauge pump-action, and the sound of an American soldier racking a round into the chamber signaled danger to enemy soldiers."

" If you ask the men who carried and counted on them, they’ll tell you they depended on their shotgun in many difficult situations. They were a trusted firearm for men who had to engage the enemy at close range."

www.americaremembers.com

Vietnam 50th Anniversary Tribute Shotgun | America Remembers

Honoring legendary American heroes & historic events with limited edition Vietnam 50th Anniversary Tribute Shotguns, commemorative pistols, and rifles from America Remembers.
www.americaremembers.com www.americaremembers.com

​

"8 Most Common AR-15 Failures"​

www.pewpewtactical.com

8 Most Common AR-15 Failures & How To Fix Them

The AR-15 is reliable but can still have some hiccups. We go over a couple of the most common AR-15 failures and how to fix them.
www.pewpewtactical.com www.pewpewtactical.com

1. Failure to Feed (FTF)​

Failure to feed (FTF) is one of the most common malfunctions you’ll encounter as a gun owner.

What’s really annoying is that it can happen at any time. It could be your first shot of the day, or it could kill your vibe halfway through a magazine.

Regardless, magazines are the most common failure point"

2. Failure to Eject/Extract (FTE)​

But there are times when FTE is more difficult to fix.

In these situations, the bolt may have returned to its fully rearward position, or it might have short-stroked, meaning that it only traveled partway before stopping.

3. Failure to Fire​

Failure to fire – or, put simply, “click no bang” – happens every so often.

It’s often caused by ammunition mishaps, or perhaps the bolt didn’t travel fully forward when you loaded the gun.

4. Under-Gassed Rifle​

Alright, so you’ve run through the usual list of fixes, but the bolt on the AR isn’t reliably locking open, or maybe the brass is dribbling out in an unimpressive way.

5. Over-Gassed Rifle​

This is where it gets a little tricky. It can be difficult for the average gun owner to tell the difference between an under-gassed and an over-gassed AR.

An over-gassed gun pushes the limits of the platform by attempting to extract cartridge cases prematurely.

6. Bolt Override/Brass Over Bolt​

This is a rare failure, but still worth mentioning.

7. Double Feed​

As the term implies, a double feed is when two rounds try to enter the chamber at the same time.

This can be tied to a Failure to Extract, where a live round gets stuck behind the previously fired round or its case.

In this scenario, a case or live round gets trapped at an angle above the bolt.

8. Stovepipe​

Every so often, you get a stovepipe in your AR. This means that spent brass got caught in the ejection port while it was being extracted.

And to learn more about AR-15 malfunctions, check out the Brownell’s Daily Defense video below;


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt_2sWDHHeo



This is what I love about America; we can all have our opinions and politely agree to disagree.

However, while I am still in NY at the moment, as soon as I move to Maine this spring, my first purchase after getting my Maine drivers license will be a Daniel Defense AR 10 DD5, V3.

CAN"T WAIT!!! ; )
 
Captain Junebug said:
This is what I love about America; we can all have our opinions and politely agree to disagree.

However, while I am still in NY at the moment, as soon as I move to Maine this spring, my first purchase after getting my Maine drivers license will be a Daniel Defense AR 10 DD5, V3.

CAN"T WAIT!!! ; )
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Nice! A friend of mine just bought a beautiful M4A1, I may have to follow suit soon lol.
 
the obligatory:
Buck F said:
You can get more shots off more quickly and more likely on target w/ an AR15/SBR/Bullpup than you ever will w/ a pump doing slam-fire, even in a 12' x 13.5'bedroom.
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If you want to compare pump action with a semi auto, why not include a muzzle loader too: they're basically the same, no?

Beretta 1301 Tactical(not sport) is the fastest cycling shotgun that can flood an area with projectiles waaaay faster than an AR/Tavor/etc semi-auto. The downside is if there are many intruders and they are coming up one at a time: once you unload on the first one and try to reload, the second intruder has plenty of time to move in. Get an extension tube so you can load 7+1+1, practice single shell fast reloads and you'll be fine.

AR is better if there are multiple intruders, I suppose. The caveat is that if you're in MA and you have one of those 10-round pinned magazine AR atrocities, this does not apply to you. That gun is a POS and you might as well use it as a bat. You're better off with a gun that can take pre-ban standard capacity mags(Glock 17/19/22/23), Beretta 92's, CZ 75's) and buying those prebans.
 
Sammy said:
the obligatory:

If you want to compare pump action with a semi auto, why not include a muzzle loader too: they're basically the same, no?

Beretta 1301 Tactical(not sport) is the fastest cycling shotgun that can flood an area with projectiles waaaay faster than an AR/Tavor/etc semi-auto. The downside is if there are many intruders and they are coming up one at a time: once you unload on the first one and try to reload, the second intruder has plenty of time to move in. Get an extension tube so you can load 7+1+1, practice single shell fast reloads and you'll be fine.

AR is better if there are multiple intruders, I suppose. The caveat is that if you're in MA and you have one of those 10-round pinned magazine AR atrocities, this does not apply to you. That gun is a POS and you might as well use it as a bat. You're better off with a gun that can take pre-ban standard capacity mags(Glock 17/19/22/23), Beretta 92's, CZ 75's) and buying those prebans.
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I love pumps but when the argument then goes to slam-firing as the primary home pro option, then IMO the AR argument is fair game. As is the semi shotgun one you made. While I'd never own a pinned mag atrocity, I still think the case might be made for those atrocity 10+1 rounds being more effective than 5+1 from a pump going slam-fire (if you own one of those atrocities I doubt you own a pump w/ more than 5+1 capacity or any other guns w/ pre-ban mags).
 
Buck F said:
I love pumps but when the argument then goes to slam-firing as the primary home pro option, then IMO the AR argument is fair game. As is the semi shotgun one you made. While I'd never own a pinned mag atrocity, I still think the case might be made for those atrocity 10+1 rounds being more effective than 5+1 from a pump going slam-fire (if you own one of those atrocities I doubt you own a pump w/ more than 5+1 capacity or any other guns w/ pre-ban mags).
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Shotgun vs. Rifle

There was a time when few considered AR-style rifles suitable for home defense. This was due more to prejudice than design flaw, but thoughts have changed, and recent loads such as Hornady TAP make the black rifle a far more viable home-defense option. In terms of raw energy, the shotgun wins, but the .223 Rem. does stack up pretty well—most loads hover around 1,300 ft.-lbs. at the muzzle. However, the shotgun separates itself from the .223 Rem. in its ability to dump that energy into a close-range target. Today's rapid-expanding .223 Rem. rounds come close, but I have not seen a ballistic gelatin test in which it outperformed 00 buckshot. And ultimately it is the transfer of energy—whether a car striking a deer or an ounce of shot smacking a burglar's chest—that kills.

There are plenty of rifle calibers that exceed the shotgun in terms of energy, though. A hot .270 Win. or .30-'06 Sprg. load, for instance, has nearly double the energy of our example shotgun configuration. Heavy rifles are plenty powerful, but can be impractical for close-range combat.

www.shootingillustrated.com

An Official Journal Of The NRA | It's the Math, Stupid

Find out why buckshot and birdshot are better than handgun, or even .223 Rem. loads for home defense.
www.shootingillustrated.com www.shootingillustrated.com

Here is a great thought provoking article to consider.

www.shootingillustrated.com

An Official Journal Of The NRA | 12-Gauge Shotgun vs. AR-15 for Personal Defense

A 12-gauge shotgun and an AR-15 both have advantages and disadvantages. Which one should you grab for personal-defense use?
www.shootingillustrated.com www.shootingillustrated.com

I think if we go back to the original question from the OP about home defense shotgun, the best advice I'm inclined to pontificate is research, research and do more research. Once you make a decision, practice until the point of instinctual reaction that would overtake any adrenaline induced hesitation.

The True Distance of a Typical Gunfight​


"It is notoriously difficult to find actual data on civilian-involved defensive shootings, especially if you’re looking for details like engagement distance. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence to suggest that the range of three to five yards is typical. Firearms instructors who have attempted to study this stuff will frequently suggest numbers around that range.

For example, John Correia from the Active Self Protection YouTube channel has watched thousands of gunfight videos and he’s mentioned the three to seven yard range as the most common. Claude Werner (aka The Tactical Professor) did an analysis of several years’ worth of stories from the Armed Citizen column in The American Rifleman. His summary on distance was that the majority of the incidents were “slightly in excess of arm’s length.”

www.luckygunner.com

The True Distance of a Typical Gunfight - Lucky Gunner Lounge

How far apart does the typical gunfight happen? We analyze police and other data to determine the distance in this article.
www.luckygunner.com
 
Buck F said:
I love pumps but when the argument then goes to slam-firing as the primary home pro option, then IMO the AR argument is fair game. As is the semi shotgun one you made. While I'd never own a pinned mag atrocity, I still think the case might be made for those atrocity 10+1 rounds being more effective than 5+1 from a pump going slam-fire (if you own one of those atrocities I doubt you own a pump w/ more than 5+1 capacity or any other guns w/ pre-ban mags).
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Agreed.
It’s all based on personal situation. As a renter in an urban area, an AR loses out to a semi-auto shottie. If I were in a different area, different situation (home with land) I’d probably be in a different boat. It’s a truly subjective question and there’s no one single answer to it. Bottom line, use what works best for you and your unique/individual situation, and train with it, damnit!
 
Captain Junebug said:
However, while I am still in NY at the moment, as soon as I move to Maine this spring, my first purchase after getting my Maine drivers license will be a Daniel Defense AR 10 DD5, V3.
Click to expand...
Hope you don't stop there. Guns I dreamed of having, once purchased, some did not work for me. I thought I would love AR's but I don't. They are easy to build/repair, easy to find, cheap(relatively) but I just didn't feel comfortable with them. Then I tried Tavor X95. Holy crap! This rifle fits me like a glove! Go figure.

There is one MAJOR advantage of a pump-action shotgun that no other gun has: the psychological effect of the sound the shotgun makes when you rack it! Every criminal is dreading this sound. The sound announces loudly: "Your chances of walking out of here alive just went down to near zero!". This sound is as American as it gets! If I were to pick five things that are quintessential Americana of 20th century, it would be the pump-action shotgun, 1911, Detroit muscle, "Wizard of Oz" and P-51 Mustang!
 
Sammy said:
Hope you don't stop there. Guns I dreamed of having, once purchased, some did not work for me. I thought I would love AR's but I don't. They are easy to build/repair, easy to find, cheap(relatively) but I just didn't feel comfortable with them. Then I tried Tavor X95. Holy crap! This rifle fits me like a glove! Go figure.

There is one MAJOR advantage of a pump-action shotgun that no other gun has: the psychological effect of the sound the shotgun makes when you rack it! Every criminal is dreading this sound. The sound announces loudly: "Your chances of walking out of here alive just went down to near zero!". This sound is as American as it gets! If I were to pick five things that are quintessential Americana of 20th century, it would be the pump-action shotgun, 1911, Detroit muscle, "Wizard of Oz" and P-51 Mustang!
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[popcorn]
 
025DCEDC-C9A5-40DA-AB1B-8572E8516DD3.jpeg
Over 110 years old and still travels well.

Then again, my 10 year old son has claimed it as his hunting shotgun (I cut the stick down and it winds up being a great youth gun) when it isn’t sitting cruiser ready behind my door, so I don’t know if this is really mine anymore
 
Shotguns are cool and do the satisfying CHI-CHI when you play around with them, but for actual home defense a pistol caliber carbine probably is a better bet. Less recoil, less noise, easier and much faster follow up shots. Around 5 bens, Keltec Sub2K gen 2s are pretty reliable. Add a light or light/laser on the under rail, a stubby or angled foregrip and you have a great CQC defensive weapon.

Or take bidens advice and get a double barreled shotgun. Bad guys roll up, fire two warning shots in the air.
 
Love my bedside destroyer. Got it in trade, costs nothing as the traded gun was a 28" (i dont hunt) and a hand me down. Id rather a shockwave but unless i can get a 14" barrel its not worth it as this might as well be a shockwave with a pistol grip. 1995 Mossberg 590A (i think) its technically a regal that had wood finish at one point.

268453263_10166125484975088_2472461078700733705_n.jpg
 
PL-52 said:
Remington 870 won’t run the mimishells without an adapter. ’Forget that! !No time in a firefight to be thinking did I replace the gizmo when I went to range to practice my stance and cover tactics! You want all your wits focused on stopping your objective.
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Mossberg needs the adapter as well. but it's only $12.00.
 
Captain Junebug said:
I would strongly suggest a pre 1975 version of the Ithaca 37 because of the following;

"Loading the Ithaca 37 involves inserting shotshells of the proper gauge through the loading/ejection port in the bottom of the receiver and pushing them forward into the magazine until retained by the shell stop. The slide release is pressed and the slide retracted completely then pushed forward. Pulling the trigger fires the gun and releases the slide for reloading. On most models up to 1975, a second sear was installed that would drop the hammer as soon the gun went into battery if the trigger was in a depressed condition. Thus, holding the trigger down allowed the gun to fire the instant a new round is cycled into the chamber without requiring the trigger to be released; this feature was called "slam-fire". Otherwise, the Model 37 operates in much the same way as other pump-action shotguns; with the exception that, unlike most pump-action (and semi-automatic) long arms - which usually eject expended shells to one side, usually the right - the Model 37 ejects them downward, through the aforementioned loading/ejection port. This has made the Ithaca popular with left-handed users, who may fear hot shells being thrown at them by other guns."

I could always out shoot my other hunting buddies when duck, rabbit or grouse hunting by just sighting and pumping with my finger depressed on the trigger causing a "slam-fire" effect. I could fire 2 shots to their one shot quite easily. I know of any other shotgun with this feature, which is why so many Vietnam vets lived to tell the tales of fighting in thick jungles where getting off quick shots meant life or death. It was their choice of weapon back in the day;

"The Model 37 was used by the United States Armed Forces in World War II, the Korean War, and especially the Vietnam War, where it gained a great reputation for reliability in the jungles of Vietnam when generally used by special forces/special operations forces like the Navy SEALs and Army Green Berets.View attachment 556306"


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Our shotgunner used a Winchester 1897. He could laydown all ammo in the magazine and chamber pretty quickly.
 
Buck F said:
You can get more shots off more quickly and more likely on target w/ an AR15/SBR/Bullpup than you ever will w/ a pump doing slam-fire,l
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You have never seen me slam firing the trench gun.

It is a thing of beauty and a little scary.
 
Sammy said:
There is one MAJOR advantage of a pump-action shotgun that no other gun has: the psychological effect of the sound the shotgun makes when you rack it! Every criminal is dreading this sound. The sound announces loudly: "Your chances of walking out of here alive just went down to near zero!". This sound is as American as it gets! If I were to pick five things that are quintessential Americana of 20th century, it would be the pump-action shotgun, 1911, Detroit muscle, "Wizard of Oz" and P-51 Mustang!
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If the criminal can hear the sound:

1. You wasted 1 round - either by ejecting it or by never having a round chambered.

2. You are not doing enough shooting.

3. The criminal is way too close to you.

4. Wizard of Oz is bada**. But I might replace that with a colt single action revolver or a lever action. Picking only 5 things makes it tough.
 
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Buck F said:
Dammit I want one! It's #1 on my wish list.
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Just do it. The reproductions are great, but if you can't find a repro, you can get an original and have the barrel cut. Plenty of people do this for cowboy shooting.

The problem with the priginals is the heat guard, finding one that fits the originals is not as easy due to thinner barrels than the military.

But in my opinion, the heat guard, while it looks awesome and holds a sword, the big disadvantage is that if you are not careful you will mess up your fingers.

But the big advantage is it allows a shotgun to be attached to a sword. Or a sword attached to a shotgun. Hmmm ...

If I was doing that today, what I would think of doing - remove the heat guard and ask a gunsmith to weld a bayonet lug to the barrel. Or cut part of the heatguard.
 

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