Practical Implications of H4885 for Purchasing and Possessing

JimO said:
I don't disagree with your last statement. I do hope the whole thing gets ruled as unconstitutional.

However... the states and subdivisions is referring back to facilities. That is, the records can not be transferred to any facility owned by the federal government or any state or political subdivision.
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JimO said:
I don't disagree with your last statement. I do hope the whole thing gets ruled as unconstitutional.

However... the states and subdivisions is referring back to facilities. That is, the records can not be transferred to any facility owned by the federal government or any state or political subdivision.
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It says managed or controlled by.
That's not referring to location of data.

Why do you think the ATF tries to maintain that they don't have a searchable database of collected 4473s - that way they can say that they neither manage or control the data that is archived by a third party private contractor.
It's bullshit, we know it, they know it and they know that getting it to SCOTUS is low priority given all of the other higher priority shit like extreme risk orders, pistol braces, and forced reset triggers.
 
DJBrad said:
@CrackPot

While suppressors are not legal to own except for properly licensed dealers what is the best option for a .300BO pistol build for night hunting? Just stay under an OAL of 26”? Any experience using your setup for yotes?

Hunting regs still need to be updated to reflect the new law on ma.gov. Big change is of course the non resident and youth hunter restrictions.
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My setup is a 10.5" 300BLK pistol but of course mine is suppressed. I have no interest in shooting it unsuppressed.

What regulations to you want changed? I am perfectly happy with the hunting regulations as they are right now. Any pistol 38 caliber or less is legal for night hunting coyotes so our 300BLK pistols are good to go. Today people who are not exempt use a fixed mag 300BLK pistol.
 
CrackPot said:
My setup is a 10.5" 300BLK pistol but of course mine is suppressed. I have no interest in shooting it unsuppressed.

What regulations to you want changed? I am perfectly happy with the hunting regulations as they are right now. Any pistol 38 caliber or less is legal for night hunting coyotes so our 300BLK pistols are good to go. Today people who are not exempt use a fixed mag 300BLK pistol.
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I’m not saying anything needs to be changed but currently the hunting regs have not been updated online to reflect the changes but I guess that will after 10/22. How many nonres hunters who are 15-17 years old will be committing felonies under the new law while having already followed the hunting regs for small and big game licenses? What if those are there in Ma opening day for yotes on 10/19?

Shooting .300BLK at night in the woods would be quite loud. It would be nice to have suppression legal for hunters under certain circumstances but I know that will never happen here.

Today fixed mag is gtg. On 10/23 detachable mag and featurefull .300BLK ar pistols will be gtg.
 
Mesatchornug said:
@Darksideblues42 @Rob Boudrie
I'm sure your team is slammed, but do you guys have any insight on Worcester? Refusing a renewal app then offering a date after expiry sounds like a slam dunk when even Boston does renewals online now...
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Worcester PD are a bunch of d*cks when it comes to Renewals and new applications.

Comm2A has sent several letters, I am sure they laugh and throw then away. They literally don't give a f*ck. They will tell new applicants the exact date, several months after application, they can go get their LTC.
 
Len-2A Training said:
Not really. That is a Fed document and per the Fed law, is only releasable to the Feds, not local or state authorities. Of course, we've seen where locals will bring BATFE with them if a dealer quotes the law to them, so the locals will get what they want anyway.
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Well, that is a State problem. They have to prove you DID NOT own it ON or BEFORE 8/1. So sit back and let them fight the feds, or they can't prove sh*t.
 
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Coyote33 said:
Thanks. So comforting to know we've got each other's backs.



5.7?
.22 Mag?
.357 Sig?
.30 Carbine?
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That's laughable.

There's 497,237 licensed gun owners in Massachusetts.......allegedly.

496,550 of them couldn't give enough of a shit to cover their own ass.....how/why would you expect others to?
 
Sheesh, I'm just returning home from a long business trip overseas. So if i'm reading this all correctly there is a new "preban" date of 8/1? Anything legally possessed in the state of Mass prior to this date is grandfathered and exempt from the "copies and duplicate" BS as of 10/23, including post 7/20/16?
 
1-Up-Top said:
Sheesh, I'm just returning home from a long business trip overseas. So if i'm reading this all correctly there is a new "preban" date of 8/1? Anything legally possessed in the state of Mass prior to this date is grandfathered and exempt from the "copies and duplicate" BS as of 10/23, including post 7/20/16?
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Not before, ON that date; but yes.

The distinction matters because it means you can’t possess an assault-style firearm that someone who moved to NH owned when they were living in Mass. three years ago.
 
Will grandfathered "assault style firearms" owned on 8/1 be subject to the new "two features" test in order to remain compliant? For instance, would a rifle with a fixed stock, handguard, detachable magazine, pinned muzzle device, pistol grip and vertical foregrip need to be modified to technically meet the new requirements?
 
sjdubbayew said:
Will grandfathered "assault style firearms" owned on 8/1 be subject to the new "two features" test in order to remain compliant? For instance, would a rifle with a fixed stock, handguard, detachable magazine, pinned muzzle device, pistol grip and vertical foregrip need to be modified to technically meet the new requirements?
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No

Do you know what "grandfathered" actually means? Lol
 
1-Up-Top said:
Sheesh, I'm just returning home from a long business trip overseas. So if i'm reading this all correctly there is a new "preban" date of 8/1? Anything legally possessed in the state of Mass prior to this date is grandfathered and exempt from the "copies and duplicate" BS as of 10/23, including post 7/20/16?
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Yes, until tested by the state.
Which they likey won't do because the SJC shanked them in the nutsack with Canjura (switchblades)
If the state tries to argue that post 7/20/16 C&Ds are verboten then they will have to argue that an AR in 223 is demonstrably more dangerous (lethal) than a similar exempted firearm like a mini-14. No chance at that so their flagship ban will fail at the SJC or SCOTUS.
 
milktree said:
Not before, ON that date; but yes.

The distinction matters because it means you can’t possess an assault-style firearm that someone who moved to NH owned when they were living in Mass. three years ago.
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In most cases? Barely.

Good luck to the state in proving where a gun was on 8/1. Unless it's a chip shot (like a trace to a gun that was born after 8/1) this will be unprovable in most cases.
 
sjdubbayew said:
Will grandfathered "assault style firearms" owned on 8/1 be subject to the new "two features" test in order to remain compliant? For instance, would a rifle with a fixed stock, handguard, detachable magazine, pinned muzzle device, pistol grip and vertical foregrip need to be modified to technically meet the new requirements?
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There are two exemptions.
In transaction portal prior to 7/20/16 exempts from copies and duplicates but requires passage features test

Legally possessed in Mass on 8/1/2024 exempts from assault-style designation (no feature test)

You could have an AR that passes the 7/20 but fails the 8/1 so it could be transferred back into Mass but would need to be in a new ban compliant state.

This is if the state doesn't assert that post 7/20 copies and duplicates are not covered by the 8/1 exemption since healy declared they were never lawful.
But I think the state is going to shut up about it after SJC'S Canjura opinion.
 
drgrant said:
In most cases? Barely.

Good luck to the state in proving where a gun was on 8/1. Unless it's a chip shot (like a trace to a gun that was born after 8/1) this will be unprovable in most cases.
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With how much people post on social media, there’s more avenues to prove someone had it out of state. Still, it’s going to impact what, 10 people?
 
My new theme song about all of this. I'm just going to do what I do


View: https://youtu.be/xLpfbcXTeo8?si=z0MxNMUWmfUUdQAx

Seriously, these lyrics are spot on

Well you can tell ev'ryone I'm a down disgrace
Drag my name all over the place.
I don't care anymore.
You can tell ev'rybody 'bout the state I'm in
You won't catch me crying 'cos I just can't win.
I don't care anymore I don't care anymore

I don't care what you say
I don't play the same games you play.

'Cos I've been talking to the people that you call your friends
And it seems to me there's a means to and end.
They don't care anymore.
And as for me I can sit here and bide my time
I got nothing to lose if I speak my mind.
I don't care anymore I don't care no more

I don't care what you say
We never played by the same rules anyway.

I won't be there anymore
Get out of my way
Let me by
I got better things to do with my time
I don't care anymore I don't care anymore
I don't care anymore I don't care anymore

Well, I don't care now what you say
'Cos ev'ry day I'm feeling fine with myself
And I don't care now what you say
Hey I'll do alright by myself
'Cos I know.

'Cos I remember all the times I tried so hard
And you laughed in my face 'cos you held all the cards.
I don't care anymore.
And I really ain't bothered what you think of me
'Cos all I want of you is just a let me be.
I don't care anymore D'you hear? I don't care no more

I don't care what you say
I never did believe you much anyway.

I won't be there no more
So get out of my way.
Let me by
I got better things to do with my time
I don't care anymore
D'you hear? I don't care anymore
I don't care no more
You listening? I don't care no more
No more!

You know I don't care no more!
 
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CrackPot said:
Pardon the new thread. The main thread is cluttered and putting this in one clean post as a summary I am hoping is helpful. I don’t believe in Healey and I think GOAL has its head up it’s ass on a number of issues and this reflects that



Practical implications of H4885 for purchasing and possessing

A billion “but what about me?” questions in the main thread so I figure giving a single post describing what to buy when might help.


The new law was signed on 7/25/24 according to the press release. It was done so without an emergency preamble. This means NOTHING CHANGES until it goes into effect on 10/23/24. All current laws are in effect unchanged until 10/23/24.

You can buy anything currently legal. This means any/all off roster handguns via frame transfer. This means any/all semi auto rifles or shotguns with compliance done. This means any/all frames or receivers of potential assault-style weapons. You can do this until 10/23/24.

BUT only items possessed lawfully ON (not before, on) 8/1/24 are grandfathered from being unlawful ASWs once the new law takes effect. So while you can continue to purchase AR lowers, for example, through 10/23/24, only ones lawfully possessed on 8/1/24 will continue to be legal.


So there is no rush to buy right now EXCEPT that which will be an ASW once the new law goes into effect. The rush to buy is all the ARs and similar evil semi auto rifles and shotguns that you need to get by 8/1 to be grandfathered. So buy these by midnight on Thursday 8/1. Regular off roster handguns or non CMR compliant handguns like glocks or most CZs, etc you can skip buying for now and get anytime before 10/23/24.



Now, what about all the cool stuff I now own that I need to be grandfathered. Do I register my lowers? What do I need to do? The short answer is NOTHING. The law says you need to lawfully possess on 8/1. It also says it must be registered in accordance with 121B and serialized in accordance with 121C.

121B is the NEW state wide database where every gun in the state must be registered. The state has one year to implement. Once implemented every transaction must be validated in the system and the gun registered to the new owner and unregistered from the old owner. Everyone will have another year to register everything they currently own. You will need to register what you have before you can transact it to sell if you sell before the one year and have not yet registered it. This is 121B.

You cannot register anything today to satisfy this requirement. Today we have a database of transactions, not a database of registered guns and owners. YOU DO NOT NEED TO “REGISTER” BEFORE 8/2 to be in compliance with the new law or prove anything. The fact that you recorded a transaction in the current system PROVES nothing.

You can/should follow the current law. If you “purchase or obtain” a firearm, rifle or shotgun from other than a Ma dealer, LTC holder or fid holder, then record the transaction within seven days of “purchasing or obtaining”. Do this to be legal with today’s law, not because it is in anyway needed for the new law. It does nothing relative to the new law and the future 121B which might not take effect until late 2025.

For the state to successfully charge you with a violation of the new 131M ASW violation, the burden of proof is on them to prove that the firearm was NOT lawfully possessed by a MA dealer or LTC holder on 8/1/24. Prove a negative. Good luck. In practice they run a trace request with the ATF. It will show when manufactured, when sold to the distributor, when sold to the dealer and when the 4473 transferred it to a person. If it was manufactured after 8/1/24 then you are in trouble. But if they can’t prove it could have been in the state lawfully on 8/1, they are done. In most cases there will be a 4473 showing you bought it on or before 8/1 because you did. In summary if you lawfully own it on 8/1, you are good.

Some other things go bump on 10/23/24. If you have only a FID anything semi auto you own is now illegal for you to have. This is the single biggest taking in the new law and should be an easy challenge in court. But assuming no court action, all FID holders must get rid of their semi auto guns before 10/23/24. Yup, you are getting screwed. This also hits all the FUDDs with FIDs with Ruger mini 14s and 10/22s.

On 10/23 dealers will longer be able to sell ANYTHING not on the roster. This includes all rifles, shotguns, machine guns, frames, and receivers. Yup, when it takes effect we can sell on roster handguns and nothing else. Until they add each and every possible bolt gun, pump shot gun, lever rifle, etc, we cannot sell them even though they are perfectly legal to have. Another major insanity of the new law ans kikely a mistake. They made all firearms subject to the roster in 123 (o). This was the same in the old law when a “firearm” was a not rifle or shotgun. Not a firearm is a pistol, rifle, shotgun, machine gun etc. Failing to change this language took out all sales except what is on the current handgun roster. Another easy court challenge but these take time.

So it you need a nice new shotgun to hunt this year, get it before 10/23 since dealers can no longer sell you anything.

Summary

Buy ARs and related future evil guns before 8/2. Follow the current law. Don’t “register” stuff because you think it is required or helps with the new law.

Buy everything else you want before 10/23 because dealers won’t be able to sell anything after that except boring on roster handguns.

Write letters to your state senator and rep asking why they banned you from buying a new pump shotgun for hunting turkeys this year.

FID holders get rid of all your semi auto long guns before 10/23



Side note. What about Healey and 7/20/2016. This is a red hearing. If the gun is lawful now it’s still lawful. If you think the press conference on 7/20/16 made things magically illegal, then ok, they are illegal. Otherwise the language in the new law just makes pre 7/20/16 guns that you owned and registered (side not saying registered here in the new law is impossible since we don’t have registration proving that they don’t even understand the laws we have) BEFORE 7/20/16 NOT a copy or duplicate. They are still subject to the feature test which they will fail so all grandfathering comes from the 8/1 language in 131M. And it says BEFORE. All the guns people rushed to buy ON 7/20/16 don’t count. Ha. Stupid.

It adds up to a nothing burger. If it’s legal on 8/1 it’s still legal after the new law. The Healey language changes nothing. Maybe it makes your gun MORE legal, but I can’t come up with an actual example that it impacts. Healey sycophants like Jason Guida says it proves Healey was right and all post 2016 are illegal. Bah.
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So my question is for post 8/1/24 AW transaction’s. Can I still buy a new AR lower today that was in the state before 8/1/24? How do I know what I’m buying was here before 8/1? Is it a red flag if the FFL dealer won’t show me his book or offer any other proof? Would it be safer to purchase a fully assembled pre ‘94 or 2016 AR that’s pre banned and never have any issues with the evil features test etc or is it all just a moot point and a waste of money post 8/1?

I’m a newbie still and having a difficult time understanding all of these laws and I’m a paralegal. I’ve talked with a few attorneys and still can’t get a definitive answer. I have no risk tolerance whatsoever sorry I’d like to be able to sleep peacefully at night knowing that I won’t loose my firearms, have legal expenses, and ultimately loose my LTC. What do I buy that’s a safe bet and not a gamble?

So hypothetically if I missed the 8/1/24 boat and want to be completely compliant what do I buy post 8/1?

Is it the bullpup style Tavor X95 considered an AW? I'm trying to do some more research of my own. It's wicked confusing. It sounds like some say if it’s in the state prior to 8/1 they can still sell it but does that mean it is actually legal for me to own it assuming not having more than two evil features. Would I not be considered grandfathered in and be in trouble come October if the audit the FFL books?

Can I still legally buy and own today in MA a fully assembled AR like the Kel Tech RDB Defender AR 556, SIG MPX, SIG Spear, HK93, HK9? Would I be safer to get something else like bolt action like a Ruger Mini 14, M1A, S&W FPC or just a pump action shotgun? Is there a specific shotgun that’s still legal to buy that holds more than 5 rounds? I’m unsure if I’ve missed the last call to own an AR or not?

Thank you everyone!
 


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