Practical Implications of H4885 for Purchasing and Possessing

TheMustangDad said:
So my question is for post 8/1/24 AW transaction’s. Can I still buy a new AR lower today that was in the state before 8/1/24? How do I know what I’m buying was here before 8/1? Is it a red flag if the FFL dealer won’t show me his book or offer any other proof? Would it be safer to purchase a fully assembled pre ‘94 or 2016 AR that’s pre banned and never have any issues with the evil features test etc or is it all just a moot point and a waste of money post 8/1?

I’m a newbie still and having a difficult time understanding all of these laws and I’m a paralegal. I’ve talked with a few attorneys and still can’t get a definitive answer. I have no risk tolerance whatsoever sorry I’d like to be able to sleep peacefully at night knowing that I won’t loose my firearms, have legal expenses, and ultimately loose my LTC. What do I buy that’s a safe bet and not a gamble?

So hypothetically if I missed the 8/1/24 boat and want to be completely compliant what do I buy post 8/1?

Is it the bullpup style Tavor X95 considered an AW? I'm trying to do some more research of my own. It's wicked confusing. It sounds like some say if it’s in the state prior to 8/1 they can still sell it but does that mean it is actually legal for me to own it assuming not having more than two evil features. Would I not be considered grandfathered in and be in trouble come October if the audit the FFL books?

Can I still legally buy and own today in MA a fully assembled AR like the Kel Tech RDB Defender AR 556, SIG MPX, SIG Spear, HK93, HK9? Would I be safer to get something else like bolt action like a Ruger Mini 14, M1A, S&W FPC or just a pump action shotgun? Is there a specific shotgun that’s still legal to buy that holds more than 5 rounds? I’m unsure if I’ve missed the last call to own an AR or not?

Thank you everyone!
Click to expand...
Yeah deep breath.

It needed to be in the state on 8/1 to be legal. If you want to be safe, there are people selling “documented” pre-2016 ARs that would be the least risky purchase. With the transaction data posted on the MA website, you can verify if it was in the FA10 system by that date.

But there’s no way for you to prove that person didn’t move out of MA and then come back post 8/1, or had the rifle hunting with them in Maine on 8/1. Edge case but you’ll unfortunately learn with MA gun laws, there are few things that are completely risk free due to the patchwork of laws and uncertainty with the new law coming into effect on 10/23.
 
I moved the MA whining bullshit here, if anyone wants to participate in it you can continue to doom porn fluff here:


This continual "ma sucks" BS has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with 4885 so it has been moved. If you disagree I don't give a shit. [rofl]

I DO NOT WANT this thread to get f***ed up again. Please try to stay ON TOPIC. (I know, its difficult)

Further posts in this thread involving MA WHINING will just be f***ing summarily destroyed and HARD DELETED. I'm not doing this again.

Thank you
 
milktree said:
I challenge you to find any standard cap magazines that were legally possessed on 8/1 in Mass. that are not legal to possess after 10/23.
Click to expand...

I don’t disagree but that wasn’t what I was talking about.

I was responding to Lxponys’ post saying thst anything legally owned on 8/1 can be sold. I was clarifying that it doesn’t apply to standard capacity magazines.

Whether it is enforceable by Maura and her minions is another story altogether.

Lxpony said:
Deep breath dude. Deep breath. Anything legally owned on 8/1 can be sold at any point post 8/1
Click to expand...
 
drgrant said:
That's not going to be running by 10/23 and they are certainly not going to shut the old one off until the new garbage is finished that could literally be years.
Click to expand...

This exactly.

I believe there is zero chance they are going to have a system in place within the optimistic 1 year wet dream of the MA legislators.

They are still transitioning stuff off of the old MA .gov website 9 years after planning analysis for the new one began, and 7 years after coding started.


🐯
 
CatSnoutSoup said:
This exactly.

I believe there is zero chance they are going to have a system in place within the optimistic 1 year wet dream of the MA legislators.

They are still transitioning stuff off of the old MA .gov website 9 years after planning analysis for the new one began, and 7 years after coding started.


🐯
Click to expand...
That's why I believe they are going to try to shoehorn it into the current portal framework and turn it into a worse shitshow
They MIGHT be able to do that if they get funding in process now which they won't.
Then we would need to "validate" and update what they believe we have.
 
TheMustangDad said:
So my question is for post 8/1/24 AW transaction’s. Can I still buy a new AR lower today that was in the state before 8/1/24? How do I know what I’m buying was here before 8/1? Is it a red flag if the FFL dealer won’t show me his book or offer any other proof? Would it be safer to purchase a fully assembled pre ‘94 or 2016 AR that’s pre banned and never have any issues with the evil features test etc or is it all just a moot point and a waste of money post 8/1?

I’m a newbie still and having a difficult time understanding all of these laws and I’m a paralegal. I’ve talked with a few attorneys and still can’t get a definitive answer. I have no risk tolerance whatsoever sorry I’d like to be able to sleep peacefully at night knowing that I won’t loose my firearms, have legal expenses, and ultimately loose my LTC. What do I buy that’s a safe bet and not a gamble?

So hypothetically if I missed the 8/1/24 boat and want to be completely compliant what do I buy post 8/1?

Is it the bullpup style Tavor X95 considered an AW? I'm trying to do some more research of my own. It's wicked confusing. It sounds like some say if it’s in the state prior to 8/1 they can still sell it but does that mean it is actually legal for me to own it assuming not having more than two evil features. Would I not be considered grandfathered in and be in trouble come October if the audit the FFL books?

Can I still legally buy and own today in MA a fully assembled AR like the Kel Tech RDB Defender AR 556, SIG MPX, SIG Spear, HK93, HK9? Would I be safer to get something else like bolt action like a Ruger Mini 14, M1A, S&W FPC or just a pump action shotgun? Is there a specific shotgun that’s still legal to buy that holds more than 5 rounds? I’m unsure if I’ve missed the last call to own an AR or not?

Thank you everyone!
Click to expand...
As you bought such lowers from me and just spent the last few hours in my shop, I will respond as I did in person.

2016 IS NOT A THING

clearly pre-94 (actually pre 13-sep-1994) is the lowest risk under the sun. But with that said, the law is really clear

131M (a) unlawful to have a ASF
(b) (a) does not apply if ASF was lawfully possessed in the commonwealth ON 8/1 by a MA Dealer or LTC holder.

So this answers your question. The lowers purchased were possessed by a MA Dealer in the commonwealth on 8/1 so they cannot be an illegal ASF under the new law.

A X95 might be an AW, it depends. It is definitely an ASF (new law term)

No dealer is likely to sell you a complete AR but instead a complete upper and lower. MPX, Spear and RDB would be sold complete. HK random stuff complete. This is just a matter of avoiding stress for licensing authority. The AG office harasses my COP if I sell a complete AR so I sell in two parts. I can legally sell complete of course and everyone knows and agrees to this.

So take your 8/1 lowers, wait until 10/23 and then build whatever you want. MA will have no say. Be careful as federal law still applies so if you build a SBR then you need a tax stamp. If you build an AOW you need a tax stamp. But within reason...
 
pastera said:
That's why I believe they are going to try to shoehorn it into the current portal framework and turn it into a worse shitshow
They MIGHT be able to do that if they get funding in process now which they won't.
Then we would need to "validate" and update what they believe we have.
Click to expand...

I’d love to see another “enforcement” notice.
 
I'm going to have a "coming out party" on this forum after 10/23. Wait till you guys see some of the shit I've been stock piling over the last few years. Randy Dean ( and a few other ffls) have been getting my business for a few years in anticipation of the 8/1 date
 
Last edited:
TheMustangDad said:
So my question is for post 8/1/24 AW transaction’s. Can I still buy a new AR lower today that was in the state before 8/1/24? How do I know what I’m buying was here before 8/1? Is it a red flag if the FFL dealer won’t show me his book or offer any other proof? Would it be safer to purchase a fully assembled pre ‘94 or 2016 AR that’s pre banned and never have any issues with the evil features test etc or is it all just a moot point and a waste of money post 8/1?

I’m a newbie still and having a difficult time understanding all of these laws and I’m a paralegal. I’ve talked with a few attorneys and still can’t get a definitive answer. I have no risk tolerance whatsoever sorry I’d like to be able to sleep peacefully at night knowing that I won’t loose my firearms, have legal expenses, and ultimately loose my LTC. What do I buy that’s a safe bet and not a gamble?

So hypothetically if I missed the 8/1/24 boat and want to be completely compliant what do I buy post 8/1?

Is it the bullpup style Tavor X95 considered an AW? I'm trying to do some more research of my own. It's wicked confusing. It sounds like some say if it’s in the state prior to 8/1 they can still sell it but does that mean it is actually legal for me to own it assuming not having more than two evil features. Would I not be considered grandfathered in and be in trouble come October if the audit the FFL books?

Can I still legally buy and own today in MA a fully assembled AR like the Kel Tech RDB Defender AR 556, SIG MPX, SIG Spear, HK93, HK9? Would I be safer to get something else like bolt action like a Ruger Mini 14, M1A, S&W FPC or just a pump action shotgun? Is there a specific shotgun that’s still legal to buy that holds more than 5 rounds? I’m unsure if I’ve missed the last call to own an AR or not?

Thank you everyone!
Click to expand...

The real question you should be asking yourself is whether you can even find the guns on your list. Most gun stores are stripped bare. Also the onus on this really falls to the FFL. You’re buying something pre 10/23.
 
CrackPot said:
As you bought such lowers from me and just spent the last few hours in my shop, I will respond as I did in person.

2016 IS NOT A THING

clearly pre-94 (actually pre 13-sep-1994) is the lowest risk under the sun. But with that said, the law is really clear

131M (a) unlawful to have a ASF
(b) (a) does not apply if ASF was lawfully possessed in the commonwealth ON 8/1 by a MA Dealer or LTC holder.

So this answers your question. The lowers purchased were possessed by a MA Dealer in the commonwealth on 8/1 so they cannot be an illegal ASF under the new law.

A X95 might be an AW, it depends. It is definitely an ASF (new law term)

No dealer is likely to sell you a complete AR but instead a complete upper and lower. MPX, Spear and RDB would be sold complete. HK random stuff complete. This is just a matter of avoiding stress for licensing authority. The AG office harasses my COP if I sell a complete AR so I sell in two parts. I can legally sell complete of course and everyone knows and agrees to this.

So take your 8/1 lowers, wait until 10/23 and then build whatever you want. MA will have no say. Be careful as federal law still applies so if you build a SBR then you need a tax stamp. If you build an AOW you need a tax stamp. But within reason...
Click to expand...
Well said.....only question is, do you have any left.
 
CrackPot said:
As you bought such lowers from me and just spent the last few hours in my shop, I will respond as I did in person.

2016 IS NOT A THING

clearly pre-94 (actually pre 13-sep-1994) is the lowest risk under the sun. But with that said, the law is really clear

131M (a) unlawful to have a ASF
(b) (a) does not apply if ASF was lawfully possessed in the commonwealth ON 8/1 by a MA Dealer or LTC holder.

So this answers your question. The lowers purchased were possessed by a MA Dealer in the commonwealth on 8/1 so they cannot be an illegal ASF under the new law.

A X95 might be an AW, it depends. It is definitely an ASF (new law term)

No dealer is likely to sell you a complete AR but instead a complete upper and lower. MPX, Spear and RDB would be sold complete. HK random stuff complete. This is just a matter of avoiding stress for licensing authority. The AG office harasses my COP if I sell a complete AR so I sell in two parts. I can legally sell complete of course and everyone knows and agrees to this.

So take your 8/1 lowers, wait until 10/23 and then build whatever you want. MA will have no say. Be careful as federal law still applies so if you build a SBR then you need a tax stamp. If you build an AOW you need a tax stamp. But within reason...
Click to expand...
This
The 7/20/16 date would apply for a gun that was in the transaction database on 7/20/16 but not possessed within the state on 8/1/24.
Therefore it would not be a copy or duplicate so if it passed the other feature tests it would not be an ASF.

But that's such a corner case it's not happening.

Further, the state is extremely unlikely to argue that any post 7/20 AR possessed on 8/1 is banned since the SJC published a very clear Bruen methodology in Canjura - they would lose hard and the whole ASF scheme would be gone. They don't want to stir the pot.
They still might get stomped since they can't show disparate lethality between named ban guns and named exempt guns.
And the commonality tests proscribed put ARs in common use regardless of which of the methods proscibed is chosen.
 
pastera said:
This
The 7/20/16 date would apply for a gun that was in the transaction database on 7/20/16 but not possessed within the state on 8/1/24.
Therefore it would not be a copy or duplicate so if it passed the other feature tests it would not be an ASF.

But that's such a corner case it's not happening.

Further, the state is extremely unlikely to argue that any post 7/20 AR possessed on 8/1 is banned since the SJC published a very clear Bruen methodology in Canjura - they would lose hard and the whole ASF scheme would be gone. They don't want to stir the pot.
They still might get stomped since they can't show disparate lethality between named ban guns and named exempt guns.
And the commonality tests proscribed put ARs in common use regardless of which of the methods proscibed is chosen.
Click to expand...
A re-imported pre-7/20 could theoretically exist as a post 8/1 rimfire AR since the lower would be “exempt”
 
@CrackPot What is your interpretation of H4885 regarding C&R items? If I purchase a 1968 Colt SP1 using my C&R license today and have it shipped to me from out of the state, does it become illegal on 10/23?
 
travx said:
@CrackPot What is your interpretation of H4885 regarding C&R items? If I purchase a 1968 Colt SP1 using my C&R license today and have it shipped to me from out of the state, does it become illegal on 10/23?
Click to expand...

Yes. It is an “assault-style firearm”, and it was not lawfully possessed by a dealer or LTC holder on 8/1/24, therefore it will be illegal to possess on 10/23.

Not sure how they’re going to know or prove it though.
 
travx said:
@CrackPot What is your interpretation of H4885 regarding C&R items? If I purchase a 1968 Colt SP1 using my C&R license today and have it shipped to me from out of the state, does it become illegal on 10/23?
Click to expand...
C&R in MA is only helpful for acquisition. It in no way helps in legality of the firearm.
 
milktree said:
Yes. It is an “assault-style firearm”, and it was not lawfully possessed by a dealer or LTC holder on 8/1/24, therefore it will be illegal to possess on 10/23.

Not sure how they’re going to know or prove it though.
Click to expand...
It’s not overly difficult to research when someone acquired a firearm and from where if you’re already jammed up. Realistic scenario is you’re arrested for something else, they run the serial, doesn't pop in FA10 database, and you get charged. If it was legal, you have your bound book as proof, communication records, etc.

But no I don’t think someone is scrubbing FA10 records to proactively locate potential crimes.
 
MAJoe said:
It’s not overly difficult to research when someone acquired a firearm and from where if you’re already jammed up. Realistic scenario is you’re arrested for something else, they run the serial, doesn't pop in FA10 database, and you get charged. If it was legal, you have your bound book as proof, communication records, etc.

But no I don’t think someone is scrubbing FA10 records to proactively locate potential crimes.
Click to expand...

There's 1,000 ways a gun could lawfully be in Mass. on 8/1/24 that have nothing to do with the FA10 database.
 

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