replace digital lock to mechanical lock on safe?

[ScottS]

I went the other direction--I had a S&G Group II mechanical lock and swapped it out for a S&G 6120 Digital lock and never looked back.

Not only is a mechanical lock a PITA (and I use them every day at work), but there was essentially no chance my wife would be able to work the lock. (Of course, to some that's a feature, not a bug, but that's another story).

Rob is right; the Group II lock footprint was standard, and the lock dropped right in.

I was a little hesitant at first to go digging around inside, but it's actually a pretty simple setup. There are some precautions, like making sure the relocker is secured so you don't permanently lock your safe while messign around, but that's easily dealt with.

Here's a couple pictures of the "innards" of my Liberty, FWIW. It might help if you dig in.





Pretty crude, really, but it works like a champ. The handle on the front moves that round bar back and forth under the lock body, extending or retracting the locking tabs on the door. A large tab extends/retracts from the lock body and stops the horizontal movement of the bar. That plate across the back of the lock body is the relocker plate. If you try to drill and punch the lock, that plate drops the spring-loaded relocker (to the left of the lock) and the door cannot be opened.



Guts of a mechanical lock, if you care. Remove the relocker, remove the back plate, release the dial, 4 screws hold the lock to the body, and bam, it's off.





Close-up of the relocker. You can see how I held it up and "filled" the hole with cable-ties so it could not "snap down" while I was working on the door.



New lock in place. Pretty easy, actually.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Mechanical locks can fail also.

Yup, had a mechanical fail on me (>50 yo small safe) and ran to Eastern to pick up a "take off" mechanical to replace it. Replacing it was a breeze and relatively inexpensive (this was probably 20 years ago).

I actually looked at this one too but it looked as if it held about half as many guns. Maybe it was the way the shelves were set up. I don't need all the shelves on the side, just a top shelf. Can the Winchester be set up so as to get rid of the side shelves and have the guns go all the way around on the inside of the safe? I may have to drop by TSC and take a second look at that safe.

Usually all the decent safes have clips and standards built in so you can adjust the shelves or replace them with any size you need (might need to cut lumber and carpet them if you make your own).

From some of the research I have done on the Cannon, I don't think it has the key lock like the Stack-on. Not sure about the Winchester.

This would be true only for what I'd call junky locks. S&G/LaGard style locks offer more security than this and thus wouldn't have this "feature".

You can get used mechanical locks for nearly nothing. Lots of people switch to electronic and the mechanical ones sit unused.

See above. Eastern does a lot of swapping of locks for customers who want digital locks on safes that come with mechanicals.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Guts of a mechanical lock, if you care. Remove the relocker, remove the back plate, release the dial, 4 screws hold the lock to the body, and bam, it's off.

Word of caution - do NOT insert the combination change key under any circumstances while the back plate is off the lock.

Rob is right; the Group II lock footprint was standard, and the lock dropped right in.

Group I mechanical has a different pattern for the mounting holes. Group II, II-m and Group I electronic are pretty much standard.

 

[turbo38gn]

Ok, stopped in at Eastern, talked to the rep.... looks like I'll need to do some online research. He said the lock alone cost around $300, plus I should have one of their techs install it... sounds too expensive for now.. I'll search out options to do it myself online.. he also said, the electronics from a little over 10 years old are beginning to fail.. couple tips he suggested, be sure to change the batteries every year, if they leak, that will kill the wiring.. and sounds like if you have a lock over 10 years old, you may want to consider investing in replacing it, the new ones are better..

 

[Len-2A Training]

Ok, stopped in at Eastern, talked to the rep.... looks like I'll need to do some online research. He said the lock alone cost around $300, plus I should have one of their techs install it... sounds too expensive for now.. I'll search out options to do it myself online.. he also said, the electronics from a little over 10 years old are beginning to fail.. couple tips he suggested, be sure to change the batteries every year, if they leak, that will kill the wiring.. and sounds like if you have a lock over 10 years old, you may want to consider investing in replacing it, the new ones are better..

Ask about a "take off" lock, not a "new" one. It was a long time ago but I think I paid them either $65 or $85 for a mechanical take off.

See prices here:

Electronic (S&G 6120 - $150) - http://www.amazon.com/Sargent-Greenleaf-6120-Electronic-Safe/dp/B004GVR89U
Mechanical (S&G 6730 - $96) - http://www.amazon.com/Sargent-Greenleaf-6730-100-Safe-Lock/dp/B002EDF466

 

[turbo38gn]

thank you Len

 

[mclina]

There seem to be a lot of these on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/S-G-Liberty...ultDomain_0&hash=item3aacb18b07#ht_129wt_1281

FYI - all the key does is lock the dial so it can't turn. The key does not open the safe.

 

[Len-2A Training]

There seem to be a lot of these on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/S-G-Liberty...ultDomain_0&hash=item3aacb18b07#ht_129wt_1281

FYI - all the key does is lock the dial so it can't turn. The key does not open the safe.

Holy crap that is cheap. That's the exact same lock (but with S&G logo) I bought back when and is on another safe of mine. Yes, the key just blocks the dial from turning, nothing more.

For that "buy it now" price ($32.50) it almost pays to buy it as a spare (which you'll likely never need!).

 

[Chet0729]

I was doing some research and there is a company that make a dial and electronic integrated into one. It is pricy but seems like a great idea

 

[mclina]

I was doing some research and there is a company that make a dial and electronic integrated into one. It is pricy but seems like a great idea

It does seem like a good idea. They are marketing it as an "EMP Lock" - to sell to the paranoid prepper crowd (not that there's anything wrong with that).

 

[dcmdon]

I was doing some research and there is a company that make a dial and electronic integrated into one. It is pricy but seems like a great idea

The company is SecuRam. I spoke with the US rep at SHOT. I bought one of their inexpensive digitals for a small safe in my house, to replace a mechanical lock. Its worked great so far and the backlighting is great.

I also purchased their combination electronic with mechanical backup for another of my smaller safes (they were giving 60% off at SHOT). Its worked great so far. I can open it electronically or mechanically. I like it not for the "prepper' aspect, but because its unlikely that both the mechanical and electronic parts will fail at the same time. I don't have time to get into it now, but they seem to have really done a good job with their new products.

Don

p.s. the electronic/mechanical unit is a BEAR to install. It took me about 2 hours. I had to make some minor changes to my safe door. I'd guess I could do it again in about 45 minutes since there is much less head scratching time the second time around. The unit i used to replace the mechanical lock took about 10 minutes to install.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Interesting lock. Note the very limited warranty (1 year), and complete lack of any warranty for lockout labor.

 

[MGnoob]

Many digital locks, especially ones that don't have a traditional key under the key pad have a place where you can press a 9v (or other battery/powersource)
To supply emergency power in the event of a battery failure - lockout.
Or at least the 2 digitals I've had do. I prefer manual locks reguardless.

 

[Rockrivr1]

It's interesting as my first safe had a digital lock and I traded it in for a bigger safe at Eastern Security Safe (ESS) that had a traditional dial lock. I've not liked the mechanical lock, due to the time it takes to open, and have been thinking about getting it swapped over to a digital lock. Cost is $250 from ESS. I've been going back and forth on this and am still not sure which way I'll go.

To the OP, do yourself a favor. Add some additional money and get a bigger safe. You may not need it now, but sooner or later (typically sooner) you'll have to think about getting a bigger one. I'm on my second and I'm already thinking I should have gotten bigger........

 

[DONALDG-HOG]

I would think it comes with an override key. The keypad is likely replaceable- if not- you have a key lock safe.

 

[dcmdon]

delete

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Many digital locks, especially ones that don't have a traditional key under the key pad have a place where you can press a 9v (or other battery/powersource)
To supply emergency power in the event of a battery failure - lockout.
Or at least the 2 digitals I've had do. I prefer manual locks reguardless.

Some of the higher end digitial locks (LaGard, S&G) have the battery in the keypad.

The highest end ones (Kaba-MaZ X-09, X-10, etc.) use the dial as the generator to provide power.

 

[Rim Job]

I'm bumping a 3.5 year old thread (because I can)

My LaGard lock on my TS Winchester safe died recently, thankfully in the open position. Battery was dead so replaced it and still no response from the keypad. The safe is from Black Friday 2013 so the lock is out of warranty. I'm going back and forth on whether to go dial or just a replacement electronic kit.

Sway me to one side or the other and throw some links out there for locks. No, a replacement safe is not an option.

 

[dcmdon]

As someone who owns multiple safes with both mechanical and electronic locks, I'd suggest you ask how you use the safe.

No matter what anyone says, remember that:
1) It will take 1 minute plus to get into a decent mechanical lock. Every time.
2) you will occasionally forget to spin the dial back and forth after closing the safe. Leaving the safe unlocked.
3) under stress, you are much much much more likely to screw up dialing a mechanical lock than punching a code into an electronic lock.

For this reason, I've got my safe queen stuff in a safe with a mechanical lock. This also happens to be a safe that would be a definite pain in the ass for a locksmith to get into.

My everyday gun safes have either a standard electronic lock or an electronic lock with a mechanical backup.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

It will take 1 minute plus to get into a decent mechanical lock. Every time.

More like 15 seconds once you have the combo fully absorbed so you are not counting revolutions, just opening it. Remember how quickly you could open a high school locker combo lock you used every day? Same idea. But there is the "need bifocals or your reading classes once you become a curmudgeon" issue with the mechanicals.

you will occasionally forget to spin the dial back and forth after closing the safe. Leaving the safe unlocked.

Haven't done it yet, but my safe is only 16 years old.

under stress, you are much much much more likely to screw up dialing a mechanical lock than punching a code into an electronic lock.

You are right about this one. Dial mechanical is not the one to use for grabbing a gun in a dynamic situation.

------------------------------------------------

As to replacements - there are two basic types - draw bolt and swing bolt (both available in mechanical and digital). They are not interchangeable.

If you get a S&G mechanical Group II look for the 6730 series rather than 6741. The later has Zymac instead of brass wheels; a +/- 1.25 digit tolerance; and a less advanced clutch to lock the combo in place. As to Zymac - these would not exist in a world without zinc.

 

[looser38]

Mechanical locks can fail also.

This is absolutely true.
Buy the safe, enjoy it and stop worrying about it.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Sway me to one side or the other and throw some links out there for locks. No, a replacement safe is not an option.

First, pop open the inside wall of the door to see the lock. Determine if it is a swing bolt or draw bolt (not to be confused with a drawn reciprocating dingle arm). If it is a swing bolt, consider the SecURam https://www.securamsys.com/safelogic-xtreme-c1vk0 or https://www.securamsys.com/safelogic-xtreme-c1vk0. This is a really cool design that provides digital electronic access with backup dial access. Unfortunately, it is only available in the swingbolt configuration. The dial access is not as user friendly as the S&Gs, but it works great for backup.

 

[ScottS]

One thing to keep in mind is anyone else who might need to access the safe. I deal with mechanical safes pretty much daily, so the "past the number twice, past the number once, back to zero" thing is pretty much second nature. The chance of getting my wife to remember that waltz, and access the safe using a mechanical lock? Absolutely zero. But having her remember a 6-8 digit number, enter it like a phone, and turn a handle? Different story. It was a major factor in me switching from a mechanical lock.

 

[dcmdon]

Rob - I call bull541t on 15 seconds. No way.

I've owned the safe I have now and will admit to having failed to spin the dial after locking the safe.
I'm amazed you've never made that mistake.

the glasses thing is a big deal for us old farts.

Also big is the fact that a lighted keypad is a small upgrade to even the most basic electronic locks. So you don't need to turn on any lights to get a safe open quickly.

SecureRam has a little dimple on the "clear" button. So you can feel for that, push it, and the backlight will come on. Then you punch in the combination. So its one extra button push to open the safe with the lights out.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Rob - I call bull541t on 15 seconds. No way.

You motivated me to give it a test.

I used the stopwatch on my cell phone to time myself and dialed with the right hand. I used the index finger of that hand to start the cellphone stopwatch, dialed the lock to open and then to stop the cell phone timer (no separate use of the left hand or assistant to operate the timer). This probably added about a second to my actual opening time. My times were 10.5, 12.3 and 12.5 seconds. I will admit one shortcut - since I spin the dial a few times to the left when I lock the safe, I did not start with 4 full turns to make sure the wheel pack was in the starting position.

I will also admit I sometimes fumble dialing the combo - though I did it without error three times in a row in this test.

I have used this combination for at least 15 years, so I instinctively know how to give the dial the amount of spin to get the required rotations - I do not count the number of times I pass the combination number before stopping and reversing. If you gave me a safe combo and asked me to demo these times, I expect I would fail until I had fully internalized that combination.

The lock was an S&G 6730 (the model with the +/- 0.5 dialing tolerance, not the 6741 with the +/- 1.25 tolerance)

These are typical of time times it takes me to open, not including the time to either remove my glasses or get my reading glasses. As a -4.5 nearsightee, I have crisp very close vision without glasses.

I am also absolutely certain that I would not be able to dial these times if I was under pressure like a gang of home invaders attempting to kick in my front door, or someone upstairs doing unthinkable things to a family member. As I said, a dial lock is not for use when you are under pressure or siege.

As to not forgetting - I have a habit of treating close door, turn the handle, spin dial as a single atomic transaction (in SQL speak).

The chance of getting my wife to remember that waltz, and access the safe using a mechanical lock? Absolutely zero.

As Scotts observed, some would call this a feature

 

[MGnoob]

I doubt I could convince you either way... I prefer mechanical and in theory electric may be quick... but all of our electric locks don’t work every time and often need the code entered multiple times and the door handle played with..

You really have remembered all these safes and locks really are just crap... but get the basic job done

 

[DavidC77]

Cannons have what they call a "Cannon’s exclusive dual access EMP lock"...

I have it on one of my safes, I'm going to see if I can get another one to replace my touch pad one on my other safe...

It has two locks on the one "lock", it has a dial and it has the touch pad for regular everyday entry...

I like it, gives you both in one...

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Cannons have what they call a "Cannon’s exclusive dual access EMP lock"

This "exclusive" lock looks a lot like the LP dual lock (Doomsday Redundant EMP Safe NL Combo Electronic High Security Lock - Product Manuals).

Unfortunately, this is a swing bolt lock only so that limits what safes it may be used on. A nice + is the 2M rating and 4 wheel configuration of the mechanical backup.

 

[dcmdon]

I doubt I could convince you either way... I prefer mechanical and in theory electric may be quick... but all of our electric locks don’t work every time and often need the code entered multiple times and the door handle played with..

You really have remembered all these safes and locks really are just crap... but get the basic job done

The subtlety here is that while for all intents and purposes a mechanical lock will work every time, you are FAR more likely to screw up dialing the combination of a mechanical lock under pressure than the electronic lock is to fail.

The greatest chance of the safe opening on either the first or second try, human and mechanical failings combined, is with an electronic lock.

For the reason you said above, mechanical locks resistance to total failure, is why I've got a mechanical lock on my high security safe that I access maybe once a week.

Re your electric locks not working well. Check around with your gun nut friends. SecureRam usually gives out 50% off coupon codes at SHOT. You can pick up a good quality, reliable lock for under $100.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

SecureRam usually gives out 50% off coupon codes at SHOT. You can pick up a good quality, reliable lock for under $100.

Doe SecuRam (not SecureRam) make a mech/elec drawbolt? I have not been able to find one.