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USCCA is not disclosing the number of claims filed for defense, the number actually funded, and the number denied.
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If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
So.... USCCA is pretty crap.
- Thread starter Agnotology
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steven grammont
NES Member
Insurance companies are ALL the same ........... They're not in the business of paying out.
fencer
NES Member
I think discharging the firearm was the violation.
Yes, you need a lawyer from the get go.
But that’s not the issue here. The issue is “when do you need CCW insurance”?
If it is a clear cut case of self defense, then you will likely not get charged, so your legal bills will be limited. Maybe you are out $10k for your lawyer. Many people can afford to pay $10k, even though it may be difficult for them.
But if it isn’t a clear cut case of self defense and you are charged with murder, now you are facing legal bills of $100k to $1M. Most people can’t afford $100k to $1M so THIS IS WHEN YOU NEED CCW INSURANCE, when it isn’t clear cut. And yet this is precisely when USCCA is more likely to deny coverage.
Now do you see the issue?
Buck F
NES Member
Exactly.
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Looks like I may have been wrong about binding signage in VA:
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Buck F
NES Member
In MA you're likely to get charged even in the most clear cut self-defense scenario. Maybe if there's exonerating video and even then, if it's outside the home they'll probably get you for not retreating enough.
There are two parts to USCCA'a product, legal coverage (not an insurance product) and civil liability (insurance). @Rob Boudrie pointed this out to me a couple of years ago and I looked into it and the civil liability insurance policy appears to be a standard commercial general liability form which excludes criminal acts (as most CGL policies do). If you're not convicted of a crime the perps family will still come after you for civil damages where the legal threshold is different than for criminal charges.
I carry USCCA although I'm aware of the potential limitations and haven't seen any other product I feel more comfortable with. It would really be nice if there was some dqata available on number of cases & outcomes.
safetyfirst2125
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And in MA you will mostly likely be charged, regardless of circumstances.
Hence my USCCA membership. It may not work but I’d rather have it than not have it.
There have been a number situations in MA where people have not been charged. The assertion that some make that you will always be charged is incorrect.
Is it possible in MA (or anywhere else, for that matter) that you will be charged after a clear cut case of self defense? Sure. But it is more likely that you will be charged if the case isn’t clear cut than if it is, and it is in those not clear cut cases where USCCA appears to be more like to not cover you.
Buck F
NES Member
Can you point to any such cases? In MA, you're better off operating under the assumption you will be charged, whether or not you are actually charged. Short of someone w/ a machete in your hallway or on video outside the home clearly trying to kill you, you should expect to be charged in MA.
I can’t find one right now, but lawyers on NES have indicated that this has happened on a number of occasions.
Yes, I understand the “plan for the worst, hope for the best” view and I operate under that viewpoint. That doesn’t change the fact, however, that USCCA appears likely to deny coverage when you really, really need it.
What matters would be a %, which I don't think anyone has.
I am sure we can easily come up with 10-15 cases where people weren't charged ... but 10-15 out of how many? ... 100? 300? 1000?
This info is probably hard to find, if not impossible, since most news articles we see about people being charged related to guns tend to be scumbags.
Buck F
NES Member
Interesting. If the lawyers were involved you'd think perhaps the person was charged and then perhaps the charges dropped later? I wonder how many legit self-defense situations involving firearms there have actually been in MA. Sorry, but the default in MA is more likely to charge than not to charge unless there's overwhelming exonerating evidence immediately available.
I'd also like to see more data on USCCA cases, but that doesn't seem likely.
Not necessarily.
Here is an example that happened in MA back in 2002. The woman was never charged. A drunk broke into a home in Arlington and the female homeowner shot him. She did have a lawyer representing her.
Keep and Bear Arms - Gun Owners Home Page - 2nd Amendment Supporters
Protecting the 2nd Amendment - The Right to Keep And Bear Arms.
www.keepandbeararms.com
Remember this case in 2009? A psych patient stabbed his doctor and another patient who was legally carrying shot and killed the stabber. The shooter was never charged, but the investigation took six months and he did have legal representation.
Boston Police: Psych Patient Stabs Doctor And Is Shot Dead
Police say one person was shot and another stabbed outside a psychiatric office at a Boston medical building.
www.wbur.org
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fencer
NES Member
It also appears that if during the course of the trial, evidence is introduced that they were not aware of, they may deny coverage and ask for what they spent up until that point, to be returned to them.
Yes, they have a clause that they can recoup legal fees. The CEO claims in his video that they have never done so. OK, if they have never tried to recoup legal fees then why do you have that clause in the contract?
safetyfirst2125
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Outside the home would most likely be a murder charge in MA.
Machete in hallway, in MA, 50/50 frankly.
Castle doctrine is just a silly law. Democrat DA’s view those as only applicable if applied to their political enemies.
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The shooter was a Rule 400 Boston housing cop. No police power off duty our outside of his patrol area, but this did allow the system and media to spin it as "off duty officer" rather than "vigilante who chose to ignore the MGL no guns policy".Remember this case in 2009? A psych patient stabbed his doctor and another patient who was legally carrying shot and killed the stabber. The shooter was never charged, but the investigation took six months and he did have legal representation.
Boston Police: Psych Patient Stabs Doctor And Is Shot Dead
Police say one person was shot and another stabbed outside a psychiatric office at a Boston medical building.
There was another interrupted stabbing in MA in which the shooter was not charged, but the shooter was a MA corrections officer, so it it not a valid example of how an unconnected, unimportant, person would be treated.
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Of the two cases posted above, one was in the home and the other was not.
Again, people keep making this assertion that you would most likely get charged. I’ve seen no evidence to support this claim. Is it possible that you would be charged with various charges, up to and including murder? Yes. Is that likely? I don’t think any of have the statistics to back that up.
Would they have charged him if he hadn’t been a security guard? That is the assertion of many on NES, but without any evidence to support it.
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I know of one case where a person was charged and taken to trial for holding a gun at his side when verbally threatened with violence. The case was dropped since the complaintant took the 5th due to his own pending assault charge. The district court upheld the LTC revocation.
You are absolutely correct. My point was that his "police status" (even though limited) renders this case useless as evidence as to how a commoner would be treated.
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This insurance makes no sense at all.
Regardless, you’ll be representing yourself..
Because they’re only representing the insurance company.
If you wanna go to the public defender route, you better fire them right after your arraignment in court.
Regardless, you’ll be representing yourself..
Because they’re only representing the insurance company.
If you wanna go to the public defender route, you better fire them right after your arraignment in court.
I completely agree with this, BTW. If we assume on the one hand that she was guilty, then there was still no way for USCCA to justify not covering her given that the court allowed a SD defense. They become judge and jury with respect to coverage, and it's a "court" with no representation nor rights to due process. If, on the other hand, we assume that she was not guilty, then USCCA adds insult to injury and compounds, potentially even enables, the injustice of it. So, yeah, I'm probably not going to renew unless they change their policies. But one thing I liked about it was that I could choose @nstassel if the need arose. Some of the others you don't get to choose.
Just thinking about it, one factor could be laws in some states that impinge on insuring a criminal act. IMHO, it should not be legal to regard the defendant as having committed criminal acts they have not yet been convicted of, but in the event that a defendant is ultimately convicted, then that fact could be used against the company to argue that it had, in fact, insured criminal acts and that they might then have their ability to do business in that state revoked. The clause might be there to meet this hypothetical objection, and possibly the clause would be exercised if it became the price of continuing to do business in the state. That's all just speculation on my part, so take it FWIW.
Can we agree on the following?
- You are more likely to be charged with a crime if your self defense shooting is not a clear cut case of self defense than if your shooting is a clear cut case of self defense.
- Your legal costs will be far higher if you are charged with a crime than if you are not charged.
- USCCA is more likely to deny your claim if your self defense shooting is not a clear cut case of self defense than if it is a clear cut case of self defense.
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That’s not true. No gun signs have no force of law in VA unless it’s a location specifically listed in state law, which it’s not. But it’s no surprise you think people lawfully carrying for self defense are criminals.
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I’d consider paying for attorneys on retainer services but there’s some glaring loopholes with their system too. One of the shootings I was charged with, I didn’t do anything. I didn’t defend myself, so I guess I wouldn’t be covered?
Legitimately the courts couldn’t even articulate what I was being charged with or why I was arrested . So somehow, I doubt I’d be covered.?
This is while other attorneys are trying to extort my family members for tens of thousands of dollars when I simply just represented myself it was over in three days
Legitimately the courts couldn’t even articulate what I was being charged with or why I was arrested . So somehow, I doubt I’d be covered.?
This is while other attorneys are trying to extort my family members for tens of thousands of dollars when I simply just represented myself it was over in three days
