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Source of AG Banning Out-of-State Ammo Sales!
- Thread starter Len-2A Training
- Start date
Start at GOAL. You are a member, right?
Go to the Legislative page and then look on the left for the links to Mass General Laws, Law Chart, Law FAQ. Lots of good info.
There are no actual laws regarding out of state ammunition and pre-ban magazine sales. There are no federal laws regarding them (that have not been repealed) and MA law does not apply outside of MA. However, the law that the AG claims effects the sales of ammunition is C.140 § 122B. Sale of pre-ban large capacity feeding devices is controlled by C. 140 § 131E. But again, the law has no effect on sales outside of MA.
In state, it's very clear. The law says the sale has to be in person. End of story. The argument is whether that law applies to sellers out of state shipping ammo into the state. AG says yes, the law applies. Many of us disagree. But most places don't want to fight with the AG over it.
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The real question here is "where does such a sale take place". Every definition of FOB sale that I have been able to find, other than the AGs, defines the sale as taking place at the point of delivery to the common carrier.
Exactly. But nobody seems to want to wrestle it out with the AG.
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I asked the NRA for assistance in bringing a case over the treatment of an FOB sale as if it were in-state. After a few go-arounds, the attorney I was corresponding with finally understood what I was suggesting - and that I didn't need a refresher course in MGL basics.
The result was a clear statement that no assistance from the NRA will be forthcoming on this matter.
The result was a clear statement that no assistance from the NRA will be forthcoming on this matter.
![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
Okay, yes I only recently started reading and posting to this site and in line with all New England traditions if you are not from here and haven't been here for freakin' ever you have no standing.
This is a large part of why now that my kids are graduating my house is on the market and I am leaving Mass and, no, I won't let the door hit me on the ass on my way out.
I have read this thread from the start and I am really suprised that Ted was/may be the source of the AG's campaign against out of State sales. Before I comment on that I want to speak with him directly.
I have been dealing with Ted since long before he opened the current store.
I can not count the firearms I've bought thru him both as FFL transfers and from his inventory. He has always treated me fairly and honestly.
When Sect 180 was enacted I was stripped of my Class A license and forced to move all my arms to my family home in PA.
I spent three years and untold amounts of money getting my license restored and Ted's advise and support was instrumental in my success. He introduced me to people at GOAL, yes he IS a member, and on Beacon Hill(God Bless Scott Brown and his staff) and submitted testimoney when I was finally granted a review hearing.
I have also bought items on line for years and have always had issues being in the Sheeples Democrat Socialist Republic of Massachusetts. J&G Sales, AIM, Copes and others, have always balked at shipping to Mass and the folks at J&G long ago explained their objection was based on the AG threats of lawsuits.
I don't know if people here really understand the reputation Mass has out there in America. People in America view Mass about the same way they view Cuba or North Korea
I've had dealers and people in other States refuse to deal with me and refuse my C&R simply because I live in Mass and they say it's not worth the trouble.
If Ted was the source I will be very dissappointed, but I have to look at my total of my dealings with him and his business.
This is a large part of why now that my kids are graduating my house is on the market and I am leaving Mass and, no, I won't let the door hit me on the ass on my way out.
I have read this thread from the start and I am really suprised that Ted was/may be the source of the AG's campaign against out of State sales. Before I comment on that I want to speak with him directly.
I have been dealing with Ted since long before he opened the current store.
I can not count the firearms I've bought thru him both as FFL transfers and from his inventory. He has always treated me fairly and honestly.
When Sect 180 was enacted I was stripped of my Class A license and forced to move all my arms to my family home in PA.
I spent three years and untold amounts of money getting my license restored and Ted's advise and support was instrumental in my success. He introduced me to people at GOAL, yes he IS a member, and on Beacon Hill(God Bless Scott Brown and his staff) and submitted testimoney when I was finally granted a review hearing.
I have also bought items on line for years and have always had issues being in the Sheeples Democrat Socialist Republic of Massachusetts. J&G Sales, AIM, Copes and others, have always balked at shipping to Mass and the folks at J&G long ago explained their objection was based on the AG threats of lawsuits.
I don't know if people here really understand the reputation Mass has out there in America. People in America view Mass about the same way they view Cuba or North Korea
I've had dealers and people in other States refuse to deal with me and refuse my C&R simply because I live in Mass and they say it's not worth the trouble.
If Ted was the source I will be very dissappointed, but I have to look at my total of my dealings with him and his business.
I do NOT "KNOW" who is telling the truth in this matter. It's something where you do have to look at the totality of circumstances to determine what you BELIEVE is the truth . . . without hard facts.
Some things to think about:
- I know both parties thru a gun club we all belong to, and I HAD done business with Ted prior to the BassPro fiasco.
- Every time I have met/talked with Q, he gives me every impression/vibe as being a 100% honest/stand-up guy. Based on that, I would have a very hard time believing that he would make this stuff up. He told me to my face that Ted had admitted doing this to him (Q), so this is legal "hearsay" evidence (second hand) . . . but from someone who I find totally credible.
- MA dealers were NOT thrilled at common serfs being able to buy (cheaper) via mail-order. No reason that they should like it. Ted is president of the now long-defunct MA Firearms Dealers Assn (? exact name). It is NOT in their best interest to stand up for you or me being able to undercut the local dealer and get goods delivered to MA residents' doors. [A number of years ago Carl (Four Seasons) used to ask me how his ammo prices stacked up against mail-order. I told him that since UPS had been jacking up their shipping rates, the delivered cost vs. local cost (including sales tax) was so marginal that I had stopped looking elsewhere. I was buying cases of common pistol and .223 ammo on each trip to FS. Even today, with gas down 60% from the peak, I don't see UPS/FedEx dropping their shipping rates in step with that and mail-order dealers add "handling charges" that oftentimes make the total s/h cost obscene.]
- Ted was beaming and adamantly telling all the gun club BOD members present (I was a temp BOD member at that time) that it was HE who ratted out BassPro! He defended his actions as a way to stifle what he saw as unfair competition (not exact words but pretty close to what he stated). I was present in the room when he did this, so that is first-hand info.
- When the tragedy happened in Westfield, Ted was very quick to grab the limelight, go on TV to be quoted that what was done there should have never been allowed (I guess he'd want it to be made illegal? he'll likely get his wish!). Again the viewers were never told that he was NOT speaking for all gun dealers in MA, since the association is defunct (and the news media usually introduces him as the president of said defunct org). The entire shooting community would be better off if he kept his big mouth shut . . . let the investigations continue w/o our (any of us) speculation since we were not there and did not know anything more than what the media told us about the tragedy.
Everyone has to make their own decisions here, but in my experience, someone who is willing to rat out one competitor becomes HIGHLY SUSPECT when another competitor (or group of "competitors") gets suddenly stomped on by the AG!
I don't think that any of the MA dealers expected the non-MA dealers/distributors reactions to be "screw MA, we won't even ship to MA FFLs!" . . . which I understand to be the case (including an admission to me from Ted himself). My understanding is that some out-of-state sources will not ship even to MA Dealers . . . I don't know how rampant that is, but it has to be a PITA for local dealers too.
I've made my decision and won't step foot in his shop again and haven't since the BassPro incident. Each of us has to make our own decisions. YMMV
Some things to think about:
- I know both parties thru a gun club we all belong to, and I HAD done business with Ted prior to the BassPro fiasco.
- Every time I have met/talked with Q, he gives me every impression/vibe as being a 100% honest/stand-up guy. Based on that, I would have a very hard time believing that he would make this stuff up. He told me to my face that Ted had admitted doing this to him (Q), so this is legal "hearsay" evidence (second hand) . . . but from someone who I find totally credible.
- MA dealers were NOT thrilled at common serfs being able to buy (cheaper) via mail-order. No reason that they should like it. Ted is president of the now long-defunct MA Firearms Dealers Assn (? exact name). It is NOT in their best interest to stand up for you or me being able to undercut the local dealer and get goods delivered to MA residents' doors. [A number of years ago Carl (Four Seasons) used to ask me how his ammo prices stacked up against mail-order. I told him that since UPS had been jacking up their shipping rates, the delivered cost vs. local cost (including sales tax) was so marginal that I had stopped looking elsewhere. I was buying cases of common pistol and .223 ammo on each trip to FS. Even today, with gas down 60% from the peak, I don't see UPS/FedEx dropping their shipping rates in step with that and mail-order dealers add "handling charges" that oftentimes make the total s/h cost obscene.]
- Ted was beaming and adamantly telling all the gun club BOD members present (I was a temp BOD member at that time) that it was HE who ratted out BassPro! He defended his actions as a way to stifle what he saw as unfair competition (not exact words but pretty close to what he stated). I was present in the room when he did this, so that is first-hand info.
- When the tragedy happened in Westfield, Ted was very quick to grab the limelight, go on TV to be quoted that what was done there should have never been allowed (I guess he'd want it to be made illegal? he'll likely get his wish!). Again the viewers were never told that he was NOT speaking for all gun dealers in MA, since the association is defunct (and the news media usually introduces him as the president of said defunct org). The entire shooting community would be better off if he kept his big mouth shut . . . let the investigations continue w/o our (any of us) speculation since we were not there and did not know anything more than what the media told us about the tragedy.
Everyone has to make their own decisions here, but in my experience, someone who is willing to rat out one competitor becomes HIGHLY SUSPECT when another competitor (or group of "competitors") gets suddenly stomped on by the AG!
I don't think that any of the MA dealers expected the non-MA dealers/distributors reactions to be "screw MA, we won't even ship to MA FFLs!" . . . which I understand to be the case (including an admission to me from Ted himself). My understanding is that some out-of-state sources will not ship even to MA Dealers . . . I don't know how rampant that is, but it has to be a PITA for local dealers too.
I've made my decision and won't step foot in his shop again and haven't since the BassPro incident. Each of us has to make our own decisions. YMMV
Everyone has their own approach to life....
If I were a local business owner constrained by some very strict and unreasonable rules AND I were losing business to another store that was blatantly breaking those rules I would be upset as well.
I would probably do exactly what he did....which is call the competitor and ask them to stop their practices. And if I got told to pound sand I would probably call the AG too.
All this "rat" stuff is ridiculous. The guy has a difficult business to run in a difficult environment. I can only imagine that BPS opening hurt him more than anyone, and I can further only imagine that if they were ignoring the MA laws on firearms sales then that too was hurting him more than anyone.
I don't know about the ammo scenario, but I can't and won't hold the BPS thing against that store. What was done was completely ethical on his part and completely unethical on BPS part. If he hadn't gone to BPS directly at first in an effort to help as a friendly competitor I might not feel the same, but he did.
Again, that doesn't mean others should have to take my approach, but I think the indictment of a local businessman that's just trying to be treated fairly in an effort to survive is way off base.
dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
Funny... I'd approach them and see if they wanted to actually try and BREAK the AG's lock by working together. Since they had the financial resources to fight it and all. Especially since as a small shop he'd be able to undercut BP's prices afterwards.
Instead he decided to rat them out. Meh. Even if I lived closer I wouldn't patronize him for that.
See, that's the thing...he called the BPS store, and after having no luck there he tried BPS corporate. In essence he got told to get lost.
If they wouldn't talk to him about it at all, then what's the guy supposed to do?
I have heard a few renditions of this story from some folks that have talked to Ted directly about it and from a BPS employee. BPS was not interested in the discussion with a local retailer. They were too big to talk to him.
That's not to say my approach is the only right one, but I do think people are being a little unfair to a local small business.
Also...FWIW, Bass Pro still can't get it right at a corporate level. I was talking to my friend there over the weekend, and he was telling me how the store still gets stuff that isn't Mass Compliant on a weekly basis, and they have to make an expensive overnight shipment of these firearms back to corporate every week. It has to do with the way tey track inventory on a corporate level. The store shows 0 glocks in stock, so they send them along. This sounded like it was literally an every week occurance.
So what was the guy supposed to do? Shut up and let the business go away as BPS conducted illegal and ignored his calls to please stop?
Seriously. This is a tough economy, and here was a guy with a direct local competitor that was using an illegal and unfair competitive advantage, and who was doing so knowingly and willfully. And the response of most here is "He should suck it up and mind his own business". Too bad if he needs to pay employees, rent, and God forbid eat something.
Run a business sometime and deal with competition stealing business from you illegally. See how you react, and then maybe judge this guy. Not having been in his position, that's why I can't judge him.
Fooped
Resident HK Guru
Although I understand where you're coming from on the small business angle, this could have played out very differently for ALL of us (Ted included) if he had played his cards correctly:
I present this scenario:
Common sense says that BPS did as much due dilligence as possible prior to opening by sifting through the extraordinarily complex and misleading MGLs, saw that most (if not all) Glock models are on the EOPS list (the only published list that BPS could have had access to) and said "as far as we can intelligently deduce, these guns are legal to sell in this state" and had at it.
AND THEY WERE RIGHT. 100%
As most of us know, this logic applies to any handgun that is on the EOPS list.
Off-list guns are of course a different discussion entirely.
Given that the AG's extortion tactics are, well, just that; BPS would have had a gift-wrapped opportunity to dig into some VERY deep pockets and fight the good fight (and possibly win) given that there's no leg for the AG to stand on here, and she and her band of cronies know it. This has been true since the Harshbarger days.
So..... Ted calls BPS and says something to the effect of "Hey guys, just so you know, there's actually an issue you all don't know about (explains crazy AG regs BS in graphic detail), but this would be a banner opportunity to fight it, and I'm here to help."
I'm willing to bet he'd have gotten a MUCH warmer welcome from the BPS legal dept, especially if the AG had taken them to task without Ted's dime-dropping.
Obviously there's no guarantees here, but at least it would have given us as Mass gun owners another crack at trying to eliminate these utterly ridiculous "Consumer regulations".
To summarize:
If Ted could see past his own nose, he (and all other Mass dealers) might be seling brand new Glocks right now, instead of ending up with a bad reputation and stifling another opportunity for forward progress. Couple this with dime-dropping on ammo sales, and it's game over for me.
Thanks for reading.
I didn't hear the telephone conversation between Ted and the local store, and I didn't hear the conversation between Ted and Bass Pro corporate.
I am fairly certain nobody here did either. I do believe that the calls were made, as I have heard this both from people that have talked to Ted and people that work at BPS.
So if he made the call and got told to get lost, what's his next move? Is this an indictment/critique of the guy's diplomacy skills?
Fooped
Resident HK Guru
Nope,
Read what I wrote again.
This is how it SHOULD have gone down. I am not in any way saying that this what was said. I don't know what the content of any phone calls were. I'm merely presenting a scenario where Ted could have acted differently, and the outcome could have been much different.
Also, the rights of a million+ gun owners in Mass are far more important to me than one small business owner's welfare.
Sorry.
Yup, he could have pulled his "I am the president" (of the non-existent org) with them and offered to assist them in fighting the AG regs. I seriously doubt that he did this, based on his comments to the club BOD. He didn't sound like "I had no choice" the way he was crowing over it . . . just my impression, but a strong one at that.
As for "losing business" to BP, that's pretty laughable. As I told Ted, "did you see their gun prices!!" They are typically $100 HIGHER than Ted or Carl (and most shops in MA). Ammo prices aren't usually a bargain either. They may have more varieties (on ammo) than local gun shops however, but most of us would forgo the depth of choices for better prices. Ted is also open 7 days/week, so BP doesn't have an advantage there either.
Touché!
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As I stated above, each of us has to make our own decisions, but I don't see what he did as ethical at all.
My point was that WE who were not on the call do not know if he even had the opportunity to speak with anyone corporately, or if he was just stonewalled. My understanding of the call to the store is that he was simply told that there was nothing that they could do and that he would need to call corporate.
As to the rights of a million+ gun owners being more important that one small business owner's welfare....that will make for an interesting discussion when I get back from lunch...
Admittedly fuzzy memory here (it happened what 2 years ago now), that I don't recall Ted saying that HE called BP.
I DO recall him saying that he called a "friend" at CHSB essentially saying "WTF" and the CHSB contact had the AG's office call Ted. Ted also told us that the AG called the BP store and verbally (and maybe by Fax too, don't know) ordered them to "cease and desist" and retrieve all sold Glocks. I was in that store on their opening evening AND I was back in that store the following morning, talking with BP staff and one of the Glock buyers who had come back to return the gun. Everything in this paragraph I am certain that I was told just as I'm relating it.
Bassturd, feel free to give Ted all your business . . . I don't tell others what to do, only relating what I was told and what decision I made personally.
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Untrue - Glocks, even at full retail, are going to take business away from people who will buy substitutes such as the M&P from Ted and Carl.
One problem is finding someone with command authority. At a place like Bass Pro, that's only going to happen on an issue such as this if you are speaking to corporate counsel, rather than store managers or handlers at HQ. (Just try getting cold calling and getting the head of BassPro legal to take your call if you think this is an easy thing to do).
But, they stretched the truth when they recalled the guns. The correct statement rather than "must be returned" would have been "we are requesting these be returned, but you are under no legal obligation to do so, it will not be committing any criminal or civil offense if you do not return the gun".
The funny thing is that, given their presence on this forum, some of the salespeople at BP probably knew they were selling guns the AG would have a fit over ... but, like good soldiers, followed orders and accepted that they were not there do decide corporate policy and that the decision had been made above their pay grade. Sometimes it's cost effective to listen to the troops.
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dixidawg
NES Member
I don't buy this at all.
What business was he losing?
He couldn't sell Glocks before BassPro opened.
He couldn't sell Glocks when BassPro was open and was selling Glocks.
He can't sell Glocks now that BassPro can't sell them either.
What was he really hoping to accomplish by ratting out BassPro?
If it looks like a rat
and walks like a rat
and smells like a rat
and acts like a rat
chances are pretty good that it is a RAT!
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The sale of an person who would buy an M&P at the best price he could find locally but for the fact that he could buy a Glock at full retail from BP.
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