Agnotology
NES Member
When you say washout, do you mean as the ambient gets closer to the temp of.... "targets" its harder to pick out? Which is to say, you need a certain temperature gradient to show well?
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Ultimate SHTF rifle???
- Thread starter LordOfGont
- Start date
groundscrapers
NES Member
why is it that you consistently have the worst hot takes on the page?
Yeah, it's all 'white' or 'black'. You can still see stuff moving, but it's not as dramatic as at night when the temps change.
fencer
NES Member
You could do worse.
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Impressive idea
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Good points. Another thing to keep in mind is armored enemies . An M193 coming out of a 16-18 inch barrel is going to pierce level 3 plates in home-invasion range .
Do the invaders have LVL 3 for their groin? No? Then shoot their f***ing balls off.
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I am sick.
And tired.
And tired.
DarkJoker33
NES Member
If it were pcc only, I'd rather have one or both of my cx4 storms.
And figure out how to have a fun switch.
View: https://youtu.be/j9yLPTfIqJE
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Dcdr
NES Member
Fair enough…. If I expect to actually engage in combat with mobs of people, I’ll take the AR. If I think I will have to survive off the land and hunt anything, it’s the 12ga. Still might just be the 12ga either way
Not enough range vs humans.
DarkJoker33
NES Member
See, if had a thought about this the other day.
Damn near every pcc gets shit on because its not a rifle caliber.
But the one gun that always gets a pass is the mp5. I'm sure the mp7 would get the same treatment if it were available. I understand why.
But at the same time I'm starting to have a hate for it. Because when the mp5 is king, everything else in its category is shit.
Even though its the same round or better.
MP7 is terrible. Okay, that’s hyperbole and second hand info. But it only has a following because it’s forbidden fruit. It can have AP rounds and is more compact than an MP5, but that’s where the advantages end.
The MP5 has been so successful, in part, because it is so controllable on full auto and is very quiet as an SD.
As a semi-auto, the MP5-clone is not much better than any other 9mm carbine.
But I think PCCs are underestimated. They allow easy shot placement and have much lower sound and overpressure than a rifle. Take advantage of the shot placement and it won’t matter that you don’t have a permanent stretch cavity. T-box shots are lights out. Or, just look at the messed up “defensive” shooting a couple years ago where a guy trying to see his kids at his ex’s house (who were his that weekend) got shot with one round to the chest from a Ruger PC Carbine. He was sadly gone in a moment. There’s a video, but I don’t care to dig it up.
There are good reasons why rifle caliber carbines have mostly replaced PCCs, but that doesn’t make PCCs bad.
I’d love to see some ballistics gel testing with the LeHigh 68gr +P defender ammo from a PCC. The Xtreme defenders do better the more velocity they have, and I bet the 68gr from a 16” barrel would be screaming.
9mm Luger +P 68gr. Xtreme Defender Solid Monolithic Hunting & Self Defense Ammo
Underwood Ammo offers the most comprehensive and innovative Lehigh Defense™ Supersonic Lead Free Handgun Ammo for personal defense & hunting. Shop now 9mm Luger +P Copper ammo with Solid Monolithic.
underwoodammo.com
Yeah doesn't 9mm 124 gr +P out of a 16 inch barrel reach almost .357 power?MP7 is terrible. Okay, that’s hyperbole and second hand info. But it only has a following because it’s forbidden fruit. It can have AP rounds and is more compact than an MP5, but that’s where the advantages end.
The MP5 has been so successful, in part, because it is so controllable on full auto and is very quiet as an SD.
As a semi-auto, the MP5-clone is not much better than any other 9mm carbine.
But I think PCCs are underestimated. They allow easy shot placement and have much lower sound and overpressure than a rifle. Take advantage of the shot placement and it won’t matter that you don’t have a permanent stretch cavity. T-box shots are lights out. Or, just look at the messed up “defensive” shooting a couple years ago where a guy trying to see his kids at his ex’s house (who were his that weekend) got shot with one round to the chest from a Ruger PC Carbine. He was sadly gone in a moment. There’s a video, but I don’t care to dig it up.
There are good reasons why rifle caliber carbines have mostly replaced PCCs, but that doesn’t make PCCs bad.
I’d love to see some ballistics gel testing with the LeHigh 68gr +P defender ammo from a PCC. The Xtreme defenders do better the more velocity they have, and I bet the 68gr from a 16” barrel would be screaming.
9mm Luger +P 68gr. Xtreme Defender Solid Monolithic Hunting & Self Defense Ammo
Underwood Ammo offers the most comprehensive and innovative Lehigh Defense™ Supersonic Lead Free Handgun Ammo for personal defense & hunting. Shop now 9mm Luger +P Copper ammo with Solid Monolithic.
DarkJoker33
NES Member
MP7 is terrible. Okay, that’s hyperbole and second hand info. But it only has a following because it’s forbidden fruit. It can have AP rounds and is more compact than an MP5, but that’s where the advantages end.
The MP5 has been so successful, in part, because it is so controllable on full auto and is very quiet as an SD.
As a semi-auto, the MP5-clone is not much better than any other 9mm carbine.
But I think PCCs are underestimated. They allow easy shot placement and have much lower sound and overpressure than a rifle. Take advantage of the shot placement and it won’t matter that you don’t have a permanent stretch cavity. T-box shots are lights out. Or, just look at the messed up “defensive” shooting a couple years ago where a guy trying to see his kids at his ex’s house (who were his that weekend) got shot with one round to the chest from a Ruger PC Carbine. He was sadly gone in a moment. There’s a video, but I don’t care to dig it up.
There are good reasons why rifle caliber carbines have mostly replaced PCCs, but that doesn’t make PCCs bad.
I’d love to see some ballistics gel testing with the LeHigh 68gr +P defender ammo from a PCC. The Xtreme defenders do better the more velocity they have, and I bet the 68gr from a 16” barrel would be screaming.
9mm Luger +P 68gr. Xtreme Defender Solid Monolithic Hunting & Self Defense Ammo
Underwood Ammo offers the most comprehensive and innovative Lehigh Defense™ Supersonic Lead Free Handgun Ammo for personal defense & hunting. Shop now 9mm Luger +P Copper ammo with Solid Monolithic.
View: https://youtu.be/f-k8upN-VtU
DarkJoker33
NES Member
Thanks. All the ones I’d seen before were the 90gr or 68gr from a pistol.
Caveat: Gel doesn’t tear the same as living tissues. Gel tests are good for measuring penetration consistently. And clear gel generally is penetrated deeper than natural gel. That said, it does look like 68gr from a 16” will overpenetrate through a target. It doesn’t have enough fluting to stop in time, as it’s likely designed for pistol barrel lengths. Good to know.
My understanding is that 9mm out of a rifle length barrel can over-expand, basically the petals can rip themselves off. You'd have to do your google's and figure out what loads actually work well.
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Ultimate shtf gun/rifle for me is a backpackable carbine, preferably in rifle caliber.
Yeah. The LeHigh Xtreme Defender bullets are solid copper with flutes though. So they don’t deform.
However, the flutes are designed with particular curves to get specific penetration distances. They’re not too velocity dependent, but I guess 16” is just a little too much.
They are extremely barrier blind and will get precise penetration in gel/tissue nearly without regard to the initial barrier material they penetrated. Fabric doesn’t gum them up. Wood and sheet metal also not an issue. I don’t recall how glass works against them. I believe glass does deform the copper a little.
DarkJoker33
NES Member
They corkscrew and tumble like a mofo though.
That video doesnt do it 100% justice.
I've seen other vids where they tear massively
That video doesnt do it 100% justice.
I've seen other vids where they tear massively
Gel is deceptive. The tearing you see in gel isn’t indicative of what would happen in living tissue.
But, there is a possibility that the fluting does redirect fluid to a point where it causes tissue damage. It’s been shown to do so in dead tissue, but there hasn’t been enough formal testing in living tissue. I do know hunters who use the bullets in lever guns for hunting that are quite impressed with the results.
Mesatchornug
NES Member
That's one of my intended uses.
