Update on Blended Learning

[Paper City Firearms]

So it's up and running! 60 smackers!
The real question is WHAT CAN WE CHARGE and still sleep at night?
Insurance
room
range
ammo
targets
etc

 

[JackO]

FOLKS:

I've had a number of requests for the username/password/website to login to Phase I and other NRA Training Emails.

Sorry but I won't forward NRA Training Emails. You'll have to contact NRA Training directly and request that they re-send it, square away whatever the problem is. I don't have time or desire to try to vet who is and who isn't an NRA Instructor for BP and entitled to the Emails.

I hope you understand.

Len, we understand.
The f***ing [email protected] is ignoring emails for several days.
What I really wonder, if I can recall my NRA life membership, and get full reimbursement from this USELESS organization! I would happily redirect all these money to GOAL and Com2A.

 

[Len-2A Training]

So it's up and running! 60 smackers!
The real question is WHAT CAN WE CHARGE and still sleep at night?
Insurance
room
range
ammo
targets
etc

Unless you want to absorb all those costs so that it cost you money to teach, both myself and other instructors I've spoken with don't expect to see most independent instructors lower their prices. Including the MA stuff you are still going to be spending ~5 hours (if you do it right) with your students and absorb all the costs you noted above. Clubs that ran the course for the club (in other words, charged very low prices, had instructors supply everything without reimbursement) are going to feel butt-hurt (there is a form for that ) as most of them charged less than $60 for the entire course, so perhaps they will feel compelled to drop their prices to maybe $5 or $10.

I'm not going to get worked up on the total cost to the student (should we teach for free to Lowell residents since the Lowell chief's program will likely have a gross cost of $500+/applicant?), as my costs for use of a classroom, range, insurance, ammo, targets, etc. aren't reduced with this program. In fact, I have to print out more material to use in the class than I ever did before.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Len, we understand.
The f***ing [email protected] is ignoring emails for several days.
What I really wonder, if I can recall my NRA life membership, and get full reimbursement from this USELESS organization! I would happily redirect all these money to GOAL and Com2A.

Try giving them a call.

BTW: NRA membership is NOT a requirement to be an NRA instructor. I also think that the NRA instructor insurance probably isn't restricted to NRA members either.

 

[DrBurnsides]

The cost is prohibitive.. We still bear the burden for range time, liability. I donate teaching for all the "on the fencers".. Hearts and minds and all that.. It's sub minimum wage fully factored in. Also... I use the classroom to vett the students. Someone who's going to be a problem will never get to the range portion of the class. This is the main reason this terrifies the poop out of me.

 

[Len-2A Training]

The cost is prohibitive.. We still bear the burden for range time, liability. I donate teaching for all the "on the fencers".. Hearts and minds and all that.. It's sub minimum wage fully factored in. Also... I use the classroom to vett the students. Someone who's going to be a problem will never get to the range portion of the class. This is the main reason this terrifies the poop out of me.

I think that NRA is being greedy, but what else is new?

You obviously haven't reviewed the new curriculum. You spend ~3 hours with the students before shooting, that's why you still have to rent a classroom. And this doesn't take into account the MA law portion for BFS.

I just finished the online portion that the students have to do before seeing a live instructor. It is very well done and I'd say that it is a Masters Degree in Basic Pistol, but I do think it much too tedious, too much info and goes well beyond the basics for safe use and ownership of handguns. It took me multiple days to complete as doing more than 1 lesson without a break is enough to make your head explode. I dare say that most will never retain almost any of this info as it is much too deep for a newbie.

 

[thwkman]

And the plot thickens....

If you go here http://www.nrainstructors.org/CourseCatalog.aspx

It notes that Basic Pistol stops 5/15 so you should register for Basic OF Pistol ( a few lines below)

If you click more info for Basics OF Pistol you get a pop up that says

Course Catalog
Name:NRA Basics of Pistol Shooting

Short Description: The NRA Basics of Pistol Shooting is a two-part course consisting of an e-learning portion (completed online-in your own timeframe) and a hands-on practical portion conducted at a range under the guidance and supervision of an NRA-Certified Instructor. The course is intended for all adults regardless of previous shooting experience or NRA-affiliation.

More Details: Some of the topics in the course include: gun safety rules, proper operation of revolvers and semi-automatic pistols, ammunition knowledge and selection, selecting and storing a pistol, the fundamentals of shooting, and pistol inspection and maintenance. When you enroll in the online course, you create a personal identification number (PIN). When you successfully complete the course, printing your certificate activates that PIN. The activated PIN allows you to register for the instructor-led training portion of the course. Go to www.nrainstructors.org – Find a Course Near You – select NRA Basics of Pistol Shooting – and search.

During the instructor-led-training portion of the course, an NRA Certified Instructor will validate comprehension and application of gun safety rules; range protocol; proper handling; loading and unloading procedures; application of pistol shooting fundamentals; stable shooting positions; live fire; and a final shooting qualification.

Note : This course replaces the NRA Basic Pistol Shooting course.

And if you search for Basic OF Pistol http://www.nrainstructors.org/Searc...p=02359&radius=500.1&id=53&bsa=&youth=&women=

Folks are already scheduling them!

And if you pick one to register it asks for the PIN sooooooo somewhere there must be a double secret URL for the online course.

Where's the Tylenol.

Over and out.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

From what I understand, one can license the MA Chief's course from Chief Glidden (ret) for $25 one time fee.

I am still planning on creating the open source pistol class, just because I like that name. When I have it ready I will post the outline for review in the standard Linux open source tradition and welcome contributions before I submit it for MSP certification as an approved course. I will be charging exactly $0.00 to anyone wishing to use the course materials or teach a course under the approval number (not yet applied for).

The NRA imprimatur on a class means very little in the DPRM where the "MA BFS Certification" means everything with respect to licensing.

 

[milktree]

Where's the Tylenol.

I really, really hope that's a quote from Christmas Vacation.

 

[yanici]

From what I understand, one can license the MA Chief's course from Chief Glidden (ret) for $25 one time fee.

I am still planning on creating the open source pistol class, just because I like that name. When I have it ready I will post the outline for review in the standard Linux open source tradition and welcome contributions before I submit it for MSP certification as an approved course. I will be charging exactly $0.00 to anyone wishing to use the course materials or teach a course under the approval number (not yet applied for).

The NRA imprimatur on a class means very little in the DPRM where the "MA BFS Certification" means everything with respect to licensing.

Thank you. I don't understand what you mean by, "I will post the outline for review in the standard Linux open source tradition," mostly because I'm not computer savvy. I will be glad to contribute $$ or anything else that may help you.

 

[Len-2A Training]

From what I understand, one can license the MA Chief's course from Chief Glidden (ret) for $25 one time fee.

I am still planning on creating the open source pistol class, just because I like that name. When I have it ready I will post the outline for review in the standard Linux open source tradition and welcome contributions before I submit it for MSP certification as an approved course. I will be charging exactly $0.00 to anyone wishing to use the course materials or teach a course under the approval number (not yet applied for).

The NRA imprimatur on a class means very little in the DPRM where the "MA BFS Certification" means everything with respect to licensing.

Who gets the $$ for that course. IIRC he told me that he wrote it for the MA Chiefs Assn (MCOPA) our arch-enemies. I don't like the idea of giving them money to help fund their attacks on legal gun owners in MA. I wonder if there is no fee for LEOs and the fee only applies to the unwashed wishing to use it. To me it isn't the amount of money, it's the principle of the thing.

Thank you. I don't understand what you mean by, "I will post the outline for review in the standard Linux open source tradition," mostly because I'm not computer savvy. I will be glad to contribute $$ or anything else that may help you.

Maybe Rob can send you a copy translated to Sanskrit and you can send him back your comments on a stone tablet!

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Thank you. I don't understand what you mean by, "I will post the outline for review in the standard Linux open source tradition," mostly because I'm not computer savvy. I will be glad to contribute $$ or anything else that may help you.

Open source software is typically written by one person or a small team. The source code is then published for anyone to read, or use for free. The authors generally have a process for incorporating any improvements users of the software make to the source into future open (ie, free) releases.

There will be no contribution of dollars. This is a FREE effort. Free means free. Nobody pays a thing - though I may have to spring for the postage to mail the course application into the MSP for approval.

 

[milktree]

Open source software is typically written by one person or a small team. The source code is then published for anyone to read, or use for free. The authors generally have a process for incorporating any improvements users of the software make to the source into future open (ie, free) releases.

There will be no contribution of dollars. This is a FREE effort. Free means free. Nobody pays a thing - though I may have to spring for the postage to mail the course application into the MSP for approval.

Doesn't it have to be substantially fixed (like unchangeable) before it gets approved by the SP?

Or put another way, any subsequent changes can supplement, but not replace, the course as approved by the SP, or it'd need to get re-approved.

Do I understand that correctly?

(I'm deliberately ignoring that the NRA is doing exactly that)

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Doesn't it have to be substantially fixed (like unchangeable) before it gets approved by the SP?

Or put another way, any subsequent changes can supplement, but not replace, the course as approved by the SP, or it'd need to get re-approved.

Do I understand that correctly?

The idea is for the source material to be reviewed by many before it is submitted for approval.

There will be a qualifier in the law section "The section may be modified or enhanced to keep up with changes to MGL".

 

[yanici]

Maybe Rob can send you a copy translated to Sanskrit and you can send him back your comments on a stone tablet!

Can't do that. My chisel broke. I can use a stick in a clay tablet though.

 

[paracarry]

Taught a class last sunday, explained to the students what the NRA was doing, explained to them that they don't get the student packet or an NRA certificate. The class was the same the students walked away happy. They did think it was kind of greedy of the NRA, but you all know that.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Taught a class last sunday, explained to the students what the NRA was doing, explained to them that they don't get the student packet or an NRA certificate. The class was the same the students walked away happy. They did think it was kind of greedy of the NRA, but you all know that.

. . . except none of the bolded part is true. Time to read what NRA sent you in Emails.

I agree with the greedy part.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

I run Basic Pistol for friends and other people close to me as they ask for it. So now I have to send them through all this crap online and have them pay the NRA, whereas before, they got the course for the cost of ammo from me directly. And on top of that I have to publicly list my course on the NRA site so people can even get the validation for the in person part of the class? This sucks. I'm glad the material is well put together, but the process sucks.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I run Basic Pistol for friends and other people close to me as they ask for it. So now I have to send them through all this crap online and have them pay the NRA, whereas before, they got the course for the cost of ammo from me directly. And on top of that I have to publicly list my course on the NRA site so people can even get the validation for the in person part of the class? This sucks. I'm glad the material is well put together, but the process sucks.

AFAIK you do NOT have to accept every potential student that contacts you even with this new system.

We'll need to see how this shakes out and if they make any changes to it over time.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

AFAIK you do NOT have to accept every potential student that contacts you even with this new system.

We'll need to see how this shakes out and if they make any changes to it over time.

Yeah, if this screws my ability to run the class just for friends as they request it the way I do, then I might search alternative courses to get certified to instruct....

 

[ScottS]

I have to publicly list my course on the NRA site so people can even get the validation for the in person part of the class?

Where did you read that? I've never listed my classes online, and haven't seen anything yet that will require me to do so under the blended learning format. Maybe I missed a nuance?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Where did you read that? I've never listed my classes online, and haven't seen anything yet that will require me to do so under the blended learning format. Maybe I missed a nuance?

Unless they change it, when you register a class it asks if you want it public or not. If private the only way people will see it is if they have the URL. You must submit your reports via the online listing, so you do have to register the courses online . . . they just don't need to be public.

 

[ScottS]

Unless they change it, when you register a class it asks if you want it public or not. If private the only way people will see it is if they have the URL. You must submit your reports via the online listing, so you do have to register the courses online . . . they just don't need to be public.

That's been my understanding and my experience. I didn't notice anything in the new blended format that would require me to change. The classes I teach are never listed online.

 

[07Mustang]

From what I understand, one can license the MA Chief's course from Chief Glidden (ret) for $25 one time fee.

I have permission from Chief Glidden (ret) to teach his course it is MCOPA Basic Handgun LTC-001, it is a basic safety class, live fire training is included as an option. The student is not required to take the live fire to receive the MA State police certificate needed to apply for a LTC. I set one price for no live fire and a higher price for the course with live fire.

 

[yanici]

FWIW, I emailed Chief Glidden to see if I could be sanctioned in his MCOPA Basic Handgun LTC-001 course. He responded by saying that he will not be issuing any outlines because he feels that his material is outdated and needs to be updated. So, looks like we can't get on board there.

I hope that Rob is successful in getting a new course approved. Very kind of him to go through the hassle of doing this. Thanks, Rob.

 

[Neptune Cat]

I'm going thru the Phase I course, just like a student would. It is long and tedious but very well done. I can only take 1 lesson at a setting (~1 hour). IIRC they said all 11 lessons take ~8 hours and that is before they meet up with the instructor who is supposed to spend another 3+ hours with them (I forget if that included the shooting drills or not). I question the ability of a newbie with no experience trying to absorb so much info. One of the NRA Emails to instructors mentioned that NRA wouldn't charge the student more than $60 for the online portion.

So far I've done 2 lessons of the 11, more comments to follow.

I have the email with the link, log in name and password. I've tried from my computer at work and from my computer at home, and haven't had any luck getting in. Is it still available to us? can you still get in?

Thanks,
Carl

 

[rep308]

I've been sending prospective students for MFS for the 4hr class for the state paperwork and then taking them to the range to teach them how to safely shoot. The 4 hr MFS class, offered damn near every day morning and afternoons is way easier for most people within driving distance.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I have the email with the link, log in name and password. I've tried from my computer at work and from my computer at home, and haven't had any luck getting in. Is it still available to us? can you still get in?

Thanks,
Carl

Yes, I just tried it and got in with no problem.

 

[Neptune Cat]

Yes, I just tried it and got in with no problem.

Thank you for the reply. Sometimes I'm my own worst enemy. I was looking at it again and I'm sure I left out the punctuation.

 

[szaino]

I still have a lot of questions but have not been able to get through to anyone at the NRA. The have an FAQ regarding the new blended course and claim that they have "unprecedented call volume regarding blended learning programs"

Here are some of my questions:

- What is the new course that we would offer to students and how many hours is the course. Posts here are saying it takes 8 hours just to do the online portion. Is the online portion plus the instructor Phase II all considered one course?

- the new course (Basics of Pistol Shooting) has a slightly different name than the old course (Basic Pistol Shooting Course), both of these courses show up on the pull down when I go to register a new course. The Mass approved LTC-002 course is still listed the the same, so, I am not sure that the new course is even approved in Mass. http://www.mass.gov/eopss/agencies/msp/archived-stories/2012/approved-basic-firearms-safety-course-list-updated.html

- Can an instructor set up students in the instructor portal and pay the fee for the student? Also, monitor the students online progress with the material?

- Having a big chunk of the instruction online is not good. I feel that direct interaction between students and instructor is very important for this type of content which really needs a lot of hands-on training. You don't teach someone how to drive a car online.

- having the online portion so large increases the chance that a student may not complete it before the actual scheduled class with the instructor. This creates a big headache if students aren't ready and/or don't show up to class and you are an instructor with a small class.