Update on Blended Learning

[n1heu]

How would one add an additional phrase? HFS LTC007 with fire?

 

[JackO]

No, all you put on MSP certificate is 007. But you can provide students with a letter stating that in addition to HFS class they completed live fire training. You might include the description of live fire course.

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[Len-2A Training]

No, all you put on MSP certificate is 007. But you can provide students with a letter stating that in addition to HFS class they completed live fire training. You might include the description of live fire course.

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NOT the way anyone I know does it. They either write or rubber-stamp the MSP form with "with Live Fire". Nothing says that you can't add to that form.

 

[thwkman]

I've been doing it since last fall. No issues yet. Mostly Quincy and south.

 

[JAD]

A) All I can say is that the NRA has more arms than an octopus. Don't expect one arm to know what the other one is doing. They do assign a representative to each geography to be aware of what goes on there. What else they do seems very questionable and the turn-over seems to be huge, but that is where I'd start to ask questions.

B) You can't officially add live fire as part of the NRA course, so that cert is what it is. However, the MSP cert can be "modified" by adding an additional phrase. There is no reason for anyone in LE to ever see the student's NRA cert, as it is meaningless under MGL. Only the MSP cert counts and you can add what you need to that cert as nobody cares. It's been done this way by numerous instructors ever since some chiefs insisted on live fire or they wouldn't accept the certs.

Another strategy, if you are having a student perform live fire in addition to the perscribed curriculum (e.g. to appease what some might describe extra-legal, but permissible town requirements) would be to provide a letter describing what you had the student do- in addition to the certificate. (I don't think that I would make any notation other than the formal course number and list title on the MSP or NRA certificate). Being in Connecticut, I will typically provide students with such a letter as a matter of course- since some local chiefs have been known to require or request them. I will provide the template I use later. [despite the fact that these students received basic pistol, which by curriculum requires live fire]

 

[n1heu]

I've been doing LTC-002 and making the students shoot a set of 'qualifying targets'. Usually it is a set of 4 targets with 10 shots each with 2 different guns. I sign and date the targets along with the students name and instruct them to bring said targets with them to the interview. YMMV.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

I've been doing LTC-002 and making the students shoot a set of 'qualifying targets'. Usually it is a set of 4 targets with 10 shots each with 2 different guns. I sign and date the targets along with the students name and instruct them to bring said targets with them to the interview. YMMV.

I have people shoot when I do HFS, but I don't have them take the targets with them. I don't feel like giving the PD any ideas on other shit they can ask for.

 

[szaino]

I tried printing out the targets a couple of different ways from the phase II teachers packet.

The 4" targets are smaller and the 6" target is coming out at 8". The large target says right on it: 16 out of 20 in a 6" group. I would assume they would just make this target 6" or are we supposed to now measure a 6" group?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I tried printing out the targets a couple of different ways from the phase II teachers packet.

The 4" targets are smaller and the 6" target is coming out at 8". The large target says right on it: 16 out of 20 in a 6" group. I would assume they would just make this target 6" or are we supposed to now measure a 6" group?

The ability to group rounds close together is different from hitting to point of aim. If the sights are off a bit, you can have an excellent group that is not centered on the bullseye.

 

[szaino]

A) All I can say is that the NRA has more arms than an octopus. Don't expect one arm to know what the other one is doing. They do assign a representative to each geography to be aware of what goes on there. What else they do seems very questionable and the turn-over seems to be huge, but that is where I'd start to ask questions.

B) You can't officially add live fire as part of the NRA course, so that cert is what it is. However, the MSP cert can be "modified" by adding an additional phrase. There is no reason for anyone in LE to ever see the student's NRA cert, as it is meaningless under MGL. Only the MSP cert counts and you can add what you need to that cert as nobody cares. It's been done this way by numerous instructors ever since some chiefs insisted on live fire or they wouldn't accept the certs.

With regard to the NRA HFS, I have never taught it. The HFS is an approved course but, per 140 131p:

...No firearms safety instructor shall issue or cause to be issued any basic firearms safety certificate to any person who fails to meet minimum requirements of the prescribed course of study including, but not limited to, demonstrated competency in the use of firearms.

In my interpretation this would mean that live fire is required with any approved course. Thus I never saw the use of the HFS when the basic pistol course was also available.

On another note, today I confirmed that the MSP does have the new NRA blended course submitted for approval. This may take a month before it it acted on. The individual in charge of reviewing the course hadn't done a detailed review yet, but he indicated that if the course (or any of the other submitted courses on his desk) didn't contain a section that specifically deals with Mass gun laws, there was gong to be a problem approving it.

 

[Len-2A Training]

HFS and the MCOPA courses do NOT require live fire and have been approved since the 1998 law was implemented. LTC-020 is another course that does not require live fire and is an excellent course when properly taught. You may disapprove of it and not teach it but plenty of others are. I personally find it more useful to the student (but only when taught properly) to teach BFS rather than BP. And 10 rds that an instructor loads/unloads is hardly what I'd call a guarantee of "competency in the use of firearms" . . . it will be for experienced shooters but certainly not for someone who never shot before.

None of the NRA courses include the law. NRA instructors are PROHIBITED by NRA from teaching the law in any NRA class as an NRA Instructor (PPIH/PPOH requires that anyone teaching the law section must be a lawyer or LEO with KNOWLEDGE of the gun laws in the state that it is taught).

ETA: The MA gun law is required to issue the BFS certificate, not the NRA certificate and therefore for the approved courses it is (per NRA rules) to be taught after the student has passed the NRA course and they are supposed to be given the NRA certificate PRIOR to teaching the law (or handing them some papers they will never read . . . that is actually the minimum requirement for BFS).

 

[paracarry]

The more I read these posts the more confused I get. I would like to continue teaching so people can get their LTC but I would like to do it without the student having to pay more by using the NRA online course. I would prefer to not involve the NRA.

 

[Len-2A Training]

The more I read these posts the more confused I get. I would like to continue teaching so people can get their LTC but I would like to do it without the student having to pay more by using the NRA online course. I would prefer to not involve the NRA.

Well, you could always offer your portion of the course for free if you feel that strongly about it. NRA won't care, as long as they get their piece of the pie.

There really aren't any non-NRA courses currently that are "free for public use", all non-NRA courses are proprietary and only licensed to select individuals (if at all).

 

[Rapid Fire]

Its pretty easy to see the road everyone has chosen by looking at the availability of Basic Pistol vs Home Firearm Safety courses on the NRA Site , I have switched to the HFS with the added live fire and will wait until this is all sorted out.

 

[yanici]

I'd switch to HFS and add live fire to my course but I don't want to shell out the bucks to get certified in HFS after spending all that dough to get certified in Basic Pistol.

And, who knows if the NRA doesn't have an online HFS course in the works that would look similar to their current one. Then you'd be in the same boat as the BS course after paying to be able to teach it.

 

[szaino]

I'd switch to HFS and add live fire to my course but I don't want to shell out the bucks to get certified in HFS after spending all that dough to get certified in Basic Pistol.

And, who knows if the NRA doesn't have an online HFS course in the works that would look similar to their current one. Then you'd be in the same boat as the BS course after paying to be able to teach it.

Aren't you automatically certified in HFS when you get certified in Basic Pistol? That's what happened when I got certified.

When you log into the NRA instructor section , it will show what certifications you have.

 

[yanici]

Aren't you automatically certified in HFS when you get certified in Basic Pistol? That's what happened when I got certified.

When you log into the NRA instructor section , it will show what certifications you have.

Mine just says "Certified Pistol"

 

[milktree]

Aren't you automatically certified in HFS when you get certified in Basic Pistol? That's what happened when I got certified.

Me too.

However, the course was explicitly for "Basic Pistol & Home Firearm Safety"

i.e. both courses were taught at the same time, the instructor did it that way on purpose to make our lives easier.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Aren't you automatically certified in HFS when you get certified in Basic Pistol? That's what happened when I got certified.

When you log into the NRA instructor section , it will show what certifications you have.

No, they are separate. Many TCs run both at the same time.

When I took mine with Jon Green and the late Darius Arbabi, it was 2.5 days and covered both certifications. Last month I assisted Scouter Rick in teaching the same courses and there were a few that only sat for 1 day to get certified in only one of the courses and not both.

 

[szaino]

No, they are separate. Many TCs run both at the same time.

When I took mine with Jon Green and the late Darius Arbabi, it was 2.5 days and covered both certifications. Last month I assisted Scouter Rick in teaching the same courses and there were a few that only sat for 1 day to get certified in only one of the courses and not both.

That explains it, I took mine with Jon Green and it was a Fri/Sat/Sun process.

 

[Warrior1A]

I've reached out to my instructor about it but to no avail.
At this point I'd rather teach HFS- with added live fire. how much is that going to set me back?


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[Rob Boudrie]

Blended Learning will assure that the choice of firearms licensing classes at gunshops around the country that run carry permit classes (often required by state law) is not the NRA class.

 

[M1911]

Blended Learning will assure that the choices of firearms licensing classes at gunshops around the country that run carry permit classes (often required by state law) is not the NRA class.

Agreed.

 

[Dan229]

The more I read these posts the more confused I get. I would like to continue teaching so people can get their LTC but I would like to do it without the student having to pay more by using the NRA online course. I would prefer to not involve the NRA.

Then don't involve the NRA. Teach the basic pistol course with MA law and give students the Mass certificate. I don't see any issue with that???

 

[M1911]

Then don't involve the NRA. Teach the basic pistol course with MA law and give students the Mass certificate. I don't see any issue with that???

You can no longer get the materials required to teach the NRA Basic Pistol class.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Blended Learning will assure that the choice of firearms licensing classes at gunshops around the country that run carry permit classes (often required by state law) is not the NRA class.

I disagree. Having taken the online part that students will have to take, it is much more comprehensive than the old BP class. I think it is too much, but nevertheless, it covers much more territory than BP ever did. Then you get to spend 3 hrs in a classroom with a live instructor plus an hour or more taking a real range test (minimum score required to pass). Then for MA and other places that require law, that will be an add-on. So in MA you will still spend 5 hrs with a student to do your part as an instructor properly.

I don't expect other states to bounce the course at this point.

 

[M1911]

I disagree. Having taken the online part that students will have to take, it is much more comprehensive than the old BP class. I think it is too much, but nevertheless, it covers much more territory than BP ever did. Then you get to spend 3 hrs in a classroom with a live instructor plus an hour or more taking a real range test (minimum score required to pass). Then for MA and other places that require law, that will be an add-on. So in MA you will still spend 5 hrs with a student to do your part as an instructor properly.

I don't expect other states to bounce the course at this point.

I think that Rob's point is that gun shops have a choice of what class to teach, and that they will choose not to teach the new NRA Basics of Pistol Shooting course. I agree with him.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I disagree. Having taken the online part that students will have to take, it is much more comprehensive than the old BP class. I think it is too much, but nevertheless, it covers much more territory than BP ever did. Then you get to spend 3 hrs in a classroom with a live instructor plus an hour or more taking a real range test (minimum score required to pass). Then for MA and other places that require law, that will be an add-on. So in MA you will still spend 5 hrs with a student to do your part as an instructor properly.

I don't expect other states to bounce the course at this point.

In many states, a class is required for a carry permit, shall issue is the order of the day, and indoor commercial ranges are common. There are at least a dozen in the Las Vegas area, and they pretty much all offer a course to qualify for the Nevada carry permit. I believe this sort of thing is common in other states.

So, if a shop is running classes on a commercial basis are they going to prefer a class where they collect a fee and teach a class, or a multi-step process where their student also pays another entity $60. My bet is the trend will be towards non-NRA classes at commercial facilities.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Rob, depends on state law as to what courses can be taught. As in MA all of them are proprietary and thus you need a license (impossible to obtain for most courses) to teach them.

So some will do as you suggest, but others may not have an option or are teaching the "state course" created by their gov't.

 

[Dan229]

You can no longer get the materials required to teach the NRA Basic Pistol class.

Understood but what exactly would prevent you from teaching the class? Not having the NRA certificate? The test? The NRA pistol book? MA residents will want the MSP certificate vs the NRA, the test is available elsewhere and I believe most of what's in the book is out there (on an NRA cd?) and able to be printed out. If people want the NRA certificate then that could be a problem. I'm hoping others will chime in with if they think basic pistol is able to be taught without the official NRA student package.