Update on Blended Learning

[Len-2A Training]

Replies embedded below based on discussions with a TC who speaks with John Howard (NRA Training Director) directly and a recent Email from another TC.

I still have a lot of questions but have not been able to get through to anyone at the NRA. The have an FAQ regarding the new blended course and claim that they have "unprecedented call volume regarding blended learning programs"

Here are some of my questions:

- What is the new course that we would offer to students and how many hours is the course. Posts here are saying it takes 8 hours just to do the online portion. Is the online portion plus the instructor Phase II all considered one course?

6+ hrs online course for the student, 3+ hrs with instructor plus MA law (when course gets approved) and shooting, so figure 5 hours to be safe.


- the new course (Basics of Pistol Shooting) has a slightly different name than the old course (Basic Pistol Shooting Course), both of these courses show up on the pull down when I go to register a new course. The Mass approved LTC-002 course is still listed the the same, so, I am not sure that the new course is even approved in Mass. http://www.mass.gov/eopss/agencies/msp/archived-stories/2012/approved-basic-firearms-safety-course-list-updated.html

It is not currently approved by MSP and when it is, the LTC-xxx number will change and be added to the list of approved courses.


- Can an instructor set up students in the instructor portal and pay the fee for the student? Also, monitor the students online progress with the material?

You can pay for everyone's courses if you like NRA won't stop you. No you can't monitor their progress. They need to take a test to get a token that then allows them to take the instructor-led portion of the course.

- Having a big chunk of the instruction online is not good. I feel that direct interaction between students and instructor is very important for this type of content which really needs a lot of hands-on training. You don't teach someone how to drive a car online.


There is plenty of hands-on teaching with this new program.


- having the online portion so large increases the chance that a student may not complete it before the actual scheduled class with the instructor. This creates a big headache if students aren't ready and/or don't show up to class and you are an instructor with a small class.

Since they get xx days to complete the online class after paying, you are indeed going to get people dribbling in to get the hands-on portion completed as soon as they complete the online training. The days of big BP classes are over.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Len, does this mean that our certifications to teach Certified Pistol from the NRA have to be updated? Or do you think MSP will understand the migration in course name?

 

[M1911]

Seems like a clusterflop to me.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Len, does this mean that our certifications to teach Certified Pistol from the NRA have to be updated? Or do you think MSP will understand the migration in course name?

NRA is not going to re-certify instructors, we are GTG with the new curriculum.

However you can't issue a BFS Certificate based on the new curriculum until it gets certified by MSP. As far as MSP is concerned, this is a new course . . . and they are correct in that respect . . . therefore it will be issued a new certification number eventually.

No idea if this will happen before May 15th when NRA won't let you use the old curriculum any more.

 

[szaino]

NRA is not going to re-certify instructors, we are GTG with the new curriculum.

However you can't issue a BFS Certificate based on the new curriculum until it gets certified by MSP. As far as MSP is concerned, this is a new course . . . and they are correct in that respect . . . therefore it will be issued a new certification number eventually.

No idea if this will happen before May 15th when NRA won't let you use the old curriculum any more.

Thanks for all your answers to my questions.

Until this new course gets approved by the MSP it makes no sense to go with the new online format. NRA website indicates the the old course goes away May 2016. This doesn't necessarily mean that it will come off the approved Mas LTC list of courses, so it would seem that an instructor could still continue to teach the old FTF course after May 2016.

 

[browncoat]

Thanks for all your answers to my questions.

Until this new course gets approved by the MSP it makes no sense to go with the new online format. NRA website indicates the the old course goes away May 2016. This doesn't necessarily mean that it will come off the approved Mas LTC list of courses, so it would seem that an instructor could still continue to teach the old FTF course after May 2016.

You could, but where are you going to get materials now that the NRA isn't selling them?

 

[szaino]

You could, but where are you going to get materials now that the NRA isn't selling them?

Pretty sure I saw on the NRA website that the Basic Pistol book would still be available as a stand alone item. It is still being used for the blended course.

 

[Warrior1A]

I've heard talk about switching over to just teaching the Home Safety Course. Is this really a viable solution at this point?

 

[milktree]

I've heard talk about switching over to just teaching the Home Safety Course. Is this really a viable solution at this point?

Sure, you just can't call it NRA Basic Pistol.

You can add as much extra stuff to your HFS course as you want, so long as you cover all the HFS stuff.

 

[Warrior1A]

Sure, you just can't call it NRA Basic Pistol.

You can add as much extra stuff to your HFS course as you want, so long as you cover all the HFS stuff.

If one switches over, do they need to re-certify with MSP?

 

[M1911]

If one switches over, do they need to re-certify with MSP?

No.

 

[browncoat]

Sure, you just can't call it NRA Basic Pistol.

You can add as much extra stuff to your HFS course as you want, so long as you cover all the HFS stuff.

Since NRA is ending Basic Pistol, I don't think, even if you continue using the same materials, you could call it NRA Basic Pistol. I would think you could call it Basic Pistol and still issue LTC-002 certificates though, if you are still using the exact same curriculum, since it is the curriculum that gets approved.

 

[Warrior1A]

Since NRA is ending Basic Pistol, I don't think, even if you continue using the same materials, you could call it NRA Basic Pistol. I would think you could call it Basic Pistol and still issue LTC-002 certificates though, if you are still using the exact same curriculum, since it is the curriculum that gets approved.

Which is my other thought with this. What's the point in issuing an NRA certificate really? Especially in light of all of this. Most people just want the BFS cert to go apply for their LTC anyways.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

My last Instructor renewal stated that they will require people to have actually run a course to get their next renewal in that discipline, I am going to have to grab a couple people to do a basic Pistol (even though its being phased out, the uncertainty of they will transfer over is in doubt, so I should cover my bases) and a Home Firearm Safety. I haven't run a course in a while for anyone, but would like to keep my certifications.....

 

[szaino]

Pretty sure I saw on the NRA website that the Basic Pistol book would still be available as a stand alone item. It is still being used for the blended course.

I just went on line and the old Basic Pistol Book is no longer listed for sale.

The FAQ's for the blended course says that it will continue to be available as a stand alone product, but it doesn't say in what format. The basic pistol book isn't offered for sale, but the Basic Pistol DVD is listed for sale.

 

[szaino]

I just went on line and the old Basic Pistol Book is no longer listed for sale.

The FAQ's for the blended course says that it will continue to be available as a stand alone product, but it doesn't say in what format. The basic pistol book isn't offered for sale, but the Basic Pistol DVD is listed for sale.

Got an email from NRA answering one of my questions:


The NRA Guide: Basics of Pistol Shooting handbooks are provided to students that enroll in the NRA Basics of Pistol Shooting Phase I. Individual sales of books have been discontinued.

Sincerely

John Howard
National Manager
NRA Training Department
11250 Waples Mill Road
Fairfax, VA 22030
703.267.1423
[email protected]

 

[yanici]

My last Instructor renewal stated that they will require people to have actually run a course to get their next renewal in that discipline, I am going to have to grab a couple people to do a basic Pistol (even though its being phased out, the uncertainty of they will transfer over is in doubt, so I should cover my bases) and a Home Firearm Safety. I haven't run a course in a while for anyone, but would like to keep my certifications.....

I find that odd. I don't teach a lot. My last class was November of 2015. I don't report any classes to the NRA so I don't believe they know if I've taught any classes. I just renewed my Instructor Cert. in Basic Pistol and was never asked to verify if I taught any classes. I renewed but I don't think I'll be teaching the new blended course.

 

[szaino]

more answers from NRA:

You do not need to take another course to conduct Phase II. Your Pistol Instructor credentials work with the Phase II lesson plan on your NRAI page. You will need to direct your question regarding whether or not your state approves the course to your state.

Phase I is designed for the end user. The students will need to register for the course themselves and create a unique Personal ID number and login ID. They (or you) will need that information to register for your course. Students will have immediate access to the handbook in digital format and will be sent a book as soon as they start the course. Usually within a week or so.


Sincerely

John Howard
National Manager
NRA Training Department
11250 Waples Mill Road
Fairfax, VA 22030
703.267.1423
[email protected]

 

[Len-2A Training]

Got an email from NRA answering one of my questions:


The NRA Guide: Basics of Pistol Shooting handbooks are provided to students that enroll in the NRA Basics of Pistol Shooting Phase I. Individual sales of books have been discontinued.

Sincerely

John Howard
National Manager
NRA Training Department
11250 Waples Mill Road
Fairfax, VA 22030
703.267.1423
[email protected]

That sucks. As an Instructor, I want a copy of the book that the students use and the book has changed recently. So not being able to buy it as an Instructor is wrong-minded . . . unless they sell it to us as part of the new Instructor Manual.

 

[JGreen]

I find that odd. I don't teach a lot. My last class was November of 2015. I don't report any classes to the NRA so I don't believe they know if I've taught any classes. I just renewed my Instructor Cert. in Basic Pistol and was never asked to verify if I taught any classes. I renewed but I don't think I'll be teaching the new blended course.

The difference between written policy and enforced policy.

 

[Rapid Fire]

Do we know if MA will recognize this curriculum Basics of Pistol Shooting or will we have to change to the Home Firearms Safety course until it
is approved. I thought I read because it is not the NRA Basic Pistol it is not approved ?

Don't care either way just need to understand what we can teach

 

[Len-2A Training]

Do we know if MA will recognize this curriculum Basics of Pistol Shooting or will we have to change to the Home Firearms Safety course until it
is approved. I thought I read because it is not the NRA Basic Pistol it is not approved ?

Don't care either way just need to understand what we can teach

See my post # 64 for your answer and explanation.

 

[szaino]

I am awaiting another reply from John Howard at the NRA after receiving his last email above (post #78.)

A) I told him that it is the NRA's responsibility to submit the new course to the MSP otherwise it will never get on the approved list.

B) Mass instructors currently can't order basic pistol books or student packets for the old LTC-02 course. And, the new course isn't approved. So I told him we are in a serious dilemma.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I am awaiting another reply from John Howard at the NRA after receiving his last email above (post #78.)

A) I told him that it is the NRA's responsibility to submit the new course to the MSP otherwise it will never get on the approved list.

B) Mass instructors currently can't order basic pistol books or student packets for the old LTC-02 course. And, the new course isn't approved. So I told him we are in a serious dilemma.

A) According to my sources, this is already in the works.

B) Not really a big deal. HFS hasn't changed and still meets the legal requirements. Add live fire if you want for those towns that won't accept HFS as is.

 

[yanici]

Len, will they be deleting the LTC-002 class from the approved safety class list when they add the blended class? If they did, it would make a lot of old certificates invalid. Another scenario could be someone with an LTC-002 cert is waiting to get interviewed by the local police and the cert could be denied if it became unlisted during the waiting interim.

If the State kept the LTC-002 listed I see no reason why it can't still be taught in spite of what the NRA has to say.

What a ball of $hit.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Len, will they be deleting the LTC-002 class from the approved safety class list when they add the blended class? If they did, it would make a lot of old certificates invalid. Another scenario could be someone with an LTC-002 cert is waiting to get interviewed by the local police and the cert could be denied if it became unlisted during the waiting interim.

If the State kept the LTC-002 listed I see no reason why it can't still be taught in spite of what the NRA has to say.

What a ball of $hit.

If LTC-002 is going to be removed from the list, then it would be nice for MSP to put on the list of approved courses "LTC-002 taken before XX/YYY counts towards the training requirement".

 

[Len-2A Training]

Len, will they be deleting the LTC-002 class from the approved safety class list when they add the blended class? If they did, it would make a lot of old certificates invalid. Another scenario could be someone with an LTC-002 cert is waiting to get interviewed by the local police and the cert could be denied if it became unlisted during the waiting interim.

If the State kept the LTC-002 listed I see no reason why it can't still be taught in spite of what the NRA has to say.

What a ball of $hit.

Info I've received is that it will NOT be removed from the MSP approved list. NRA "Personal Protection" is still listed although the course ceased to exist many years ago (it was broken into 2 courses, PPIH and PPOH).

Thus the need for a new course to be added. Also the new NRA blended course has a slightly different name, which will have to be the name on the new MSP LTC-xxx listing to match.

NRA owns the copyright on the course/material even when they cancel it. If you think it's worth it to spend thousands defending yourself in court against NRA's lawyers so that you can teach a $100-150 course, be my guest!

Again I don't see the attraction to BP anyway. I've stated it before, HFS is a much better course especially when you add live fire to it.

 

[Len-2A Training]

And worth adding . . .

Any chief can refuse to accept any cert for any course any time they want to. Many don't accept hunter ed certs even though it is in black and white in the law. Chiefs can do as they please and basically no MA judge is going to overrule them as long as it is their policy and they treat everyone the same way (discretion and suitability)!

 

[szaino]

A) According to my sources, this is already in the works.

B) Not really a big deal. HFS hasn't changed and still meets the legal requirements. Add live fire if you want for those towns that won't accept HFS as is.

Have you heard anything new on whether the NRA has even submitted this course to the MSP? When I had contacted the NRA they didn't even know that they had to do this.

With regard to B) above- I know you can just add live fire to the class, but how do you credential it? The MSP Certificate will still just say LTC-07 and I doubt a PD is going to accept some letter from the teacher.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Have you heard anything new on whether the NRA has even submitted this course to the MSP? When I had contacted the NRA they didn't even know that they had to do this.

With regard to B) above- I know you can just add live fire to the class, but how do you credential it? The MSP Certificate will still just say LTC-07 and I doubt a PD is going to accept some letter from the teacher.

A) All I can say is that the NRA has more arms than an octopus. Don't expect one arm to know what the other one is doing. They do assign a representative to each geography to be aware of what goes on there. What else they do seems very questionable and the turn-over seems to be huge, but that is where I'd start to ask questions.

B) You can't officially add live fire as part of the NRA course, so that cert is what it is. However, the MSP cert can be "modified" by adding an additional phrase. There is no reason for anyone in LE to ever see the student's NRA cert, as it is meaningless under MGL. Only the MSP cert counts and you can add what you need to that cert as nobody cares. It's been done this way by numerous instructors ever since some chiefs insisted on live fire or they wouldn't accept the certs.