To teach Basic Pistol, you are required to give the students a copy of the book. If you don't give them a copy of the book, then you can't claim to be teaching NRA Basic Pistol.
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Update on Blended Learning
- Thread starter robmcd
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To teach Basic Pistol, you are required to give the students a copy of the book. If you don't give them a copy of the book, then you can't claim to be teaching NRA Basic Pistol.
That would be the book that I'm supposed to return all extras back to NRA in May or something. This whole thing sucks. I was hoping that there was some way to teach the basic pistol class and give students the MSP certificate upon completion. I'm confident I can without that book and satisfy the MSP requirements. I'll have to check and see for myself exactly what the NRA book requirement is. But either way I'm saying if I cover the material then I meet the requirements of the state.
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It's called Copyright violation, and if you think that NRA's lawyers wouldn't go after you, think again. Others have tried this, giving an NRA course to very many people without the NRA certificate and book and they got into trouble with NRA over it. Not something I'd advocate but if you like poking the bear, be my guest. It's a good way to lose your NRA teaching credentials (all of them).
I suspect that the NRA will be looking for instructors who won't drink the Kool-aid and try to continue to teach Basic Pistol.
paracarry
NES Member
My last NRA basic pistol course is scheduled for the end of this month, then I am going on hiatus until I can figure out what the state will accept and what I am going to do. I may just give it up so I can spend more time enjoying the shooting sports. I have been teaching for 8 years and have always enjoyed it, but it seems like it takes up most of my free time and I really want to start shooting more. I have been thinking about giving it up prior to this new blended learning came about.
OK. I have reviewed the last month of postings and still do not know the following :
1. Has the NRA submitted the new "Basics of Pistol Shooting" to the MA State Police firearms licensing bureau for BFS certification?
2. Have the MA State Police made any statement as to their willingness to accept BFS certificates based on LTC-002 after May 15th since this course is no longer offered by the NRA after 5/15?
1. Has the NRA submitted the new "Basics of Pistol Shooting" to the MA State Police firearms licensing bureau for BFS certification?
2. Have the MA State Police made any statement as to their willingness to accept BFS certificates based on LTC-002 after May 15th since this course is no longer offered by the NRA after 5/15?
1) see post #100
2) I don't see why not. It is an approved course. They can't just take it off the list because there are probably a lot of people who took the course and received the MSP certificate indicating LTC-02. Some people sit on these for quite some time before applying for their gun license. If they were to submit their gun license with the MSP cert that says LTC-02 and the local PD looks up on the list and sees no LTC-02 that would not make sense.
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yanici
NES Member
So, it's now official. As of yesterday, The NRA Basic Pistol/LTC-002 course is now dead. Gotta teach something else if you have creds to do it. I don't, so I'm dead. Have a nice day and don't forget to renew your NRA membership.![[angry]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/008.gif "Angry [angry]")
So, it's now official. As of yesterday, The NRA Basic Pistol/LTC-002 course is now dead. Gotta teach something else if you have creds to do it. I don't, so I'm dead. Have a nice day and don't forget to renew your NRA membership.
If you have the creds to teach the old Basic Pistol class, don't you also have the creds to teach the new class? I can see why you might not want to but that is different from not being able to...
So, it's now official. As of yesterday, The NRA Basic Pistol/LTC-002 course is now dead. Gotta teach something else if you have creds to do it. I don't, so I'm dead. Have a nice day and don't forget to renew your NRA membership.
Are you out of packets?
The state didn't remove LTC-002 from the approved list, did they?
yanici
NES Member
The NRA set a date of May 15, 2016 to end teaching Basic Pistol. You now must teach the Blended course in its place, which I don't believe, has been approved in MA as a safety class worthy of a certificate. The in home LTC-007 is still good to go if you have the creds.
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As far as NRA is concerned this is true. As for the state of MA, not until they approve (and assign a new LTC-xxx) the new version of the course. So BFS certificates can be issued for LTC-002.
NRA OWNS BP and it's a copyright violation to continue teaching something that they have decertified, especially if you have to copy material or fail to give the packets to the students (others have tried this and got caught-it was an expensive lesson and they no longer teach NRA courses).
MSP (and local PDs) should not accept any certs for LTC-002 issued after 5/14, but I doubt most are smart enough to realize this.
So, it's now official. As of yesterday, The NRA Basic Pistol/LTC-002 course is now dead. Gotta teach something else if you have creds to do it. I don't, so I'm dead. Have a nice day and don't forget to renew your NRA membership.
I take it this means I should be pissed at the NRA because MA hasn't approved the new blended training course, but I'm not sure why. If I was going to be pissed over this, shouldn't I be pissed at MA (or something?)
I taught my last BP class this weekend, and I'm still figuring out how the new BPS is going to work. Everyone in the class mentioned they preferred the old (BP) format, but I expect all the NRA courses will go to blended soon.
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Blended learning is a scheme to increase the NRAs profit from the small amount on a student packet to $60 per student (minus the amortized cost of the web site). It's all about the money, unless you consider $60 to be a "nominal" fee.
I predict this will cost the NRA significant market share in those jurisdictions where courses are required for a CCW, but there are "royalty free" alternative options.
I predict this will cost the NRA significant market share in those jurisdictions where courses are required for a CCW, but there are "royalty free" alternative options.
I doubt that's the main driver, but I can't deny it ups their profits considerably. (And, it does have a "racket" feel to it.) IME, a lot of training is moving to online format, especially when it comes to the "information only" portions of a course. The new blended format also ensures absolute uniformity (and one standard of quality) in how the first part of the course is taught. One thing rarely mentioned, though, is the production value of the online training is light-years ahead of the PowerPoint version supplied for BP. I was always amazed that a major "training organization" like the NRA produced such a shamefully shitty PowerPoint lesson plan.
Significant market share in a very small market, more than offset by the roughly 5.5x increase in revenue capture from each student.
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I disagree. In general, when people say "its not about the money", but have a scheme to increase the take, it is all about the money. Sort of like people bringing contingency fee litigation who say "this is not about the money, I just want to prove a point".
Which is consistent with my view that it is about money, not service to the gun community.
It would be interesting to know what percentage of people taking handgun classes are mandated vs. voluntary students. From that I see, most people taking basic level classes are doing so to get a LTC in MA, or to get a carry permit in states where simple possession does not require papers.
Non-NRA courses will evolve when there is money to be made (MA licensing classes, CCW classes in other states, etc.), and having a non-NRA class will allow one stop shopping and increase the vendor's margins by $60/student.
I'm not talking about failing to give out, or photocopying the booklets, I'm talking about using up existing stock.
Maybe I know far less about copyright law than I thought, but how can their decertification be a copyright violation?
I can imagine that the SP might care (because they require a specific course) except that the course that the SP *did* certify can still be taught with old stock.
Why would the state police care about copyright violation? Do they have any authority to enforce copyright? Doesn't the NRA have to file a complaint first?
I agree. I think this will drive a lot of instructors away from teaching NRA classes.
My only point there was when you stated the move will "cost the NRA significant market share," I believed no one at NRA headquarters is really going to notice the small drop-off in revenue/market share.
Like you, I think it would be very interesting to see the percentage of mandated vs. voluntary. I live in a state that doesn't require training for possession or carry, and no one I've ever taught has taken the course for those reasons. There are many more states analogous to NH than to MA.
Again, for a large training organization, I'm surprised the NRA doesn't make available a lot more data on training statistics, even to basic items like average age, male vs. female, etc.
I believe so you can. And, yes, it is legally allowed for an LTC (though a licensing officer can always be a Richard). See the EOPS web site:
http://www.mass.gov/eopss/agencies/...asic-firearms-safety-course-list-updated.html
And not the asterisk on the Home Safety course:
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I've been told that there is a huge pile of proposed courses sitting at the MSP Licensing office. If it is in that pile, don't expect approval anytime soon. Maybe in a few years if they are lucky.
yanici
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I've seen Ads from some clubs and gun shops that are supposedly signing up students for the blended course. I hope the students realize that the cert is currently useless. Also, all you guys out there that paid for the NRA Basic Pistol Instructor cert are up the creek if that's the only cert you have.
Don't forget to renew your NRA membership.
Don't forget to renew your NRA membership.
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Not really . . . only if you look at BP with MA blinders on.
BP is still good (AFAIK) in CT, ME, FL, etc. so those looking for other licenses will still find it useful without the MA BS gun law add-in.
NRA instructors with Basic Pistol certification now have "Pistol Basics" certification. Plus the NRA Cert is useless in MA anyway and always has been unless your goal is to hange an NRA certificate on your wall and maybe order a patch for your shirt. The LTC applicant must have MA State Police Basic Firearms Safety certificate issued by a certified BFS instructor not an NRA certificate.
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