lukewarm_fuzz
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How does it show up at 600 but not closer ?
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What is your "Long Range" Rifle Platform?
- Thread starter Rockrivr1
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chris_1001
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lukewarm_fuzz
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Let’s say I did that but I’m still not sure. How would you clarify it for me?
chris_1001
NES Member
Lol
At 100 yards your 1moa group is (approx) 1”.
At 600 yards your 1moa group is (approx) 6”
Distance magnifies the error.
What looks good close, will look worse the further out you go.
Hope that helps.
lukewarm_fuzz
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I guess that’s why I’m confused. Why is a 1” group at 100y less valuable than a 6” group at 600y?
chris_1001
NES Member
It’s easier to hide poor marksmanship at 100 yards.
At 600, every mistake will be amplified.
Think of it this way. If you are shooting at 10 feet even if you suck, every shot should be touching.
At 600 feet you probably won’t be on paper unless you have a decent set up and know how to shoot.
lukewarm_fuzz
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But here the comment was- to see if a barrel is shot out, to shoot at 600, not closer.
I’m pretty sure if mud’s normally .5 BRA opens up to 1.5 at 100y he’ll be able to interpret the results without needing the 600.
Shooting at longer distances to see accuracy is fuddlore. Argue with a 100y benchrest shooter about how they can’t tell how accurate their guns are because they don’t shoot far enough
chris_1001
NES Member
Yes. Maybe I missed some of the nuances of this thread.But here the comment was- to see if a barrel is shot out, to shoot at 600, not closer.
I’m pretty sure if mud’s normally .5 BRA opens up to 1.5 at 100y he’ll be able to interpret the results without needing the 600.
Shooting at longer distances to see accuracy is fuddlore. Argue with a 100y benchrest shooter about how they can’t tell how accurate their guns are because they don’t shoot far enough
I’m still bitter over a brand new barrel that shot pumpkin sized groups at 100 yards.
Point is “everything is amplified at distance”.
Is my statement Incorrect?
lukewarm_fuzz
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Your statement is correct. And to your point, the environmental effect is also amplified. I think you can get a more meaningful picture of the rifle’s accuracy without the extra 500 yards of environmental variable confounding your results.
I’d rather measure and extrapolate results from 100y than try to interpret 600y results with wind. Better picture of what you and the gun are doing.
I would guess that since he’s seeing bigger SD in his velocities then that might show a bigger difference in impacts at 600 yards vs 100 yards just because he’s losing muzzle velocity. Just a guess
lukewarm_fuzz
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That’s really the best argument for testing at distance, but also something you can map from chronograph data.
chris_1001
NES Member
I had a bad barrel and got sooooooo much NES critique… so I’m guilty of the same.
A new barrel was the question and answer.
Looking for a solid .308 M5 barrel.
Long story short…. My 16” .308 M5 Areo upper is not shooting well. I’ve eliminated the obvious, loose scope, ammo and had an accomplished shooter match my results, so not human error. As such, I’m looking for a replacement barrel for it so that I can use this for some long range 300-600...
www.northeastshooters.com
Maybe I should sell him my BRA barrel that I just got with a used barreled action I bought.
I don’t think I’ll ever shoot BRA but it was a decent deal.
I don’t think I’ll ever shoot BRA but it was a decent deal.
Just because.
It's science.
Whatever.
I have no idea.
Again, all I know is what I've learned from being a competitor for the past 20 years. If you have uncalled fliers on a barrel with a bunch of rounds through it, pull the barrel; it's done. I yank mine after every season and usually sell them to the run-n-gun shooters because they still shoot really good inside of 300 yards. Their standard of accuracy is different from ours.
lukewarm_fuzz
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That was a good readI had a bad barrel and got sooooooo much NES critique… so I’m guilty of the same.
A new barrel was the question and answer.
Looking for a solid .308 M5 barrel.
Long story short…. My 16” .308 M5 Areo upper is not shooting well. I’ve eliminated the obvious, loose scope, ammo and had an accomplished shooter match my results, so not human error. As such, I’m looking for a replacement barrel for it so that I can use this for some long range 300-600...
chris_1001
NES Member
Environmental factors are one part of it, wider range of MVs means a wider range of dispersion from a static wind speed.
But more significantly is the trajectory of the bullets. When looking at trajectories, you see that it is not a linear drop in elevation.
Random internet example trajectory plot to show how there’s more drop further out.
So, take a 60 fps difference between two 308 bullets, zeroed at 100.
A: 2700 fps MV
B: 2640 fps MV
At 200 yards:
A: 2350 fps and 3.5” drop (1.7 MOA)
B: 2295 fps and 3.7” drop (1.8 MOA)
At 600 yards:
A: 1732 fps and 91.3” drop (14.5 MOA)
B: 1685 fps and 96.4” drop (15.3 MOA)
As you can see, up close there is only a 0.1 MOA difference due to a 60fps start difference. But at 600, that increases to 0.8 MOA. And this happens while the velocities start to get closer to each other.
So, it’s not just a straight linear increase in drop inches. MV differences mean a non-linear increased vertical dispersion over distance. And the bigger the extreme spread and standard deviation in muzzle velocity, the bigger your dispersion at distance.
But yes, you absolutely can calculate what your likely dispersion will be at range based on shooting at 100 and using a Chronograph. I know Litz has some software to help plot it, but I haven’t played with it yet.
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dcmdon
NES Member
It's not that simple. If the groups expand linearly, nobody is upset.
But when things get funky groups will expand rapidly.
I'll give you an example. I'm clearly not nearly as experienced as some of the people in this discussion, particularly when it comes to centerfire. This is mainly because like most people here, I have few opportunities to shoot beyond 500 yards. (I'm working to change that with my land in NH)
However I do have a lot of experience shooting out to 250 yards with a .22.
At 50 yards my bergara will easily shoot a 1/2" group using CCI SV. That's 1.00 MOA.
At 100 yards it opens up to 1.5". Or 1.5 MOA
At 200 yards it's shooting 4-5" groups. Or 2 to 2.5 MOA.
It's this kind of non-linear group expansion that people are talking about.
If I switch to Eley Tenex the groups expand linearly all the way out to 300 yards. (assuming no wind)
One other thing. From the moment a bullet leaves the barrel it is being accelerated downwards by gravity. When it leaves the barrel vertical velocity is zero. As the bullet is accelerated downwards the distance from line of site caused by the drop increases as a SQUARE function of time. Not a linear function.
This means that as distances go up, vertical dispersion caused by deviations in muzzle velocity increase as a square function of distance. This can make quite a difference if your muzzle velocity is not consistent.
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They announced it right after my full rifle shipped lol. Oh well, no complaints with the full rifleRidgeline is now selling their LPR upper by itself!
Their reasoning is fantastic. PSA could learn a thing or two.
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lukewarm_fuzz
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How’s it shoot?
Because tiny problems that were otherwise imperceptible get magnified into big ones at longer ranges.
You could even have things like a trace of instability induced on a projectile that doesnt result in something horrible at 200 but the oscillation magnifiies and by the time you get to 600, its horrible.
A fun analogy... think of it like a wheel on a car with a balancing problem. A lot of dented rims wont show much issue at 20, 30, even 50 mph... but when you're at 60+... suddenly it becomes apparent that something is f***ed.
i have received it in a week and just tested it, and got to say - i like it. YMMV.
with 'special price' it was in mid-50$ for me. in my opinion, it is worth it, for .308 +.
for now i set it on a ruger as it kicks the most, when they will get black ones i may get an another one.
www.opticsplanet.com
with 'special price' it was in mid-50$ for me. in my opinion, it is worth it, for .308 +.
for now i set it on a ruger as it kicks the most, when they will get black ones i may get an another one.
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www.opticsplanet.com
Just picked it up, Ill let you know
lukewarm_fuzz
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Kind of an initial report, maybe 500 rounds into mine, it’s moderately accurate but VERY picky on ammo. Doesn’t like most of the factory stuff I’ve put through it, shoots about 1.25-1.5” with FGMM. These pictures are of some 77 handloads. Bottom right is a 20 round mag fired continuously in two groups.
if you look top left I fired a couple rounds while increasing pressure on the bipod, see about .4 mil POI impact shift which is actually *more than I usually see with my Geissele/ VLTOR build.
Kind of renders the gun pointless, IMO.
More testing to do, and I’ve already been shooting it a ton, this is just a snapshot in the middle here.
Edit: those two groups measure .9 and .94 respectively. Combined approx 1.2”
Attachments
That Seb Mini is sexy
I gave it a quick zero and just broke in the barrel, but it seemed more accurate than my larue. Ill need to stretch it out further to really get a feel for it.
Wow, that’s pretty disappointing. I mean, still a capable carbine, but nothing special.
dunno what you people are talking about, looks like a perfectly decent group for an AR15
what is wrong with it?
or you expect a gas gun to drill through the same hole? does not happen.
Nope, the AR is not a 1-hole rifle. But, properly put together, with a quality barrel, and with a load it likes, 1/2 minute is not unusual.
That’s a completely fine group for an average precision carbine. But that was handloads and with a Proof barrel. My Shilen with handloads can get closer to 3/4” reliably. And the shilen is cheaper than proof.
And with factory loads, his LPR is shooting 1.25-1.5 with FGMM. That’s no better than what I can get with my cheaper chrome lined Criterion build.
And the POI shifts with bipod load aren’t any better than existing ARs, despite a new upper/handguard design on the LPR promising to be more rigid.
Its results aren’t bad. I’d happily take a rifle like that into combat… but it doesn’t seem to be any better than existing precision carbine options that are cheaper.
