Anyone have experience with a 4457 form when going overseas with a gun?

[dixidawg]

I am going to S Africa in a couple months, and was told that I need a customs form 4457 in order to bring my gun(s). I searched a bit and it seems like I will have to actually go to a Customs office with the guns in order to have a customs officer fill out the form. Is this true? Does anyone know if there is a simpler or online way to get this done?

 

[b79holmes]

try here

There is a lot of talk on the Leverguns forum (http://www.levergunscommunity.com/) about organized African hunts. That might be a good place to ask the question.
Bill

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I have done this using customs at Logan airport when flying to Canada, eh? with guns, and at the US customs station at Niagara Falls (slowly I turned, step by step, inch by inch) when traveling up there by car. Both transactions went smoothly and only took a few minutes. I believe this has to be done in person so customs can verify you actually are in possession of the items before leaving the US (otherwise, one could have a overseas vendor email you the serial number of the dutiable product you wish to import and you could go on-line to get proof you had it in the US).

Strictly speaking, you don't need the 4457 to take your guns, but it's a very cheap insurance policy against having problems on the way back in to the US as it provides customs accepted proof you had the guns before leaving. In the old days when a different interpretation of trademark law resulted in huge differences in the prices of cameras in the US vs. Japan, it was generally thought that one needed to do this with camera equipment as well when traveling to certain other countries.

 

[Zarathustra11]

I've never exported firearms but I do have some experience with exporting 'Significant Military Equipment' and will do my best to assist (please note that I am not advising you here, just providing some general information). ITAR Exemption § 123.17.(c) allows the export of firearms to take place without the requirement for a DOS license provided the below conditions are met. You will need to physically meet with Customs prior to departure (as discussed above). If I were you, I would call ahead of the flight to the Customs office located at Terminal E in Logan and ask to speak to a Customs supervisor- explain to him/her what you are looking to do and give them a rough idea of when you will be bringing the firearm down to them to be signed off (see if you can have this done even on a day prior to your flight if possible to avoid delays)- this will enhance their comfort level as well as your own. Customs does see this type of situation very often, just make sure the weapon's are properly stored/locked up.

Just an added note,you may also be required to file what's known as an electronic SED (Shipper's Export Declaration), or AES (Automated Export System), with the Census Bureau prior to departure in order to obtain an ITN (Internal Transaction Number), this would have to be made available to Customs prior to departure. This is required for all ITAR-controlled items but you can confirm with the Customs official whether this is required (there are some AES exemptions, I just don't know any for firearms off the top of my head and it's unlikely one exists), if you need more information PM me and I'll try to get back to you.


§ 123.17 -- Exports of firearms and ammunition.

(c) District Directors of Customs shall permit U.S. persons to export temporarily from the United States without a license not more than three nonautomatic firearms in Category I(a) of § 121.1 of this subchapter and not more than 1,000 cartridges therefor, provided that:

(1) A declaration by the U.S. person and an inspection by a customs officer is made;

(2) The firearms and accompanying ammunition must be with the U.S. person's baggage or effects, whether accompanied or unaccompanied (but not mailed); and

(3) They must be for that person's exclusive use and not for reexport or other transfer of ownership. The foregoing exemption is not applicable to a crew-member of a vessel or aircraft unless the crew-member declares the firearms to a Customs officer upon each departure from the United States, and declares that it is his or her intention to return the article(s) on each return to the United States. It is also not applicable to the personnel referred to in § 123.18.


As another added note, depending on the total value of what you are bringing, another thought may be to obtain a carnet to relieve any foreign duties or taxes- depending on where you are going and how the foreign Customs operate a carnet may be a good choice. It functions as a 'passport' for your equipment and relieves any taxes/duties associated with your equipment for foreign Customs. It is not a requirement, but sometimes can be very helpful in getting through Customs without a hassle, the important part to remember is that the carnet must be signed off both by US Customs and the foreign Customs upon departure and return, otherwise S. African Customs may initiate a claim for unpaid duties.

 

[Cabinetman]

I, too, have hunted up in Manitoba and taken firearms via aircraft through customs. It's a bit tedious but it wasn't an issue, really. The customs people in Canada were helpful and professional. One thing we had to do before we left was to get a form from the local customs people that proved that I had owned the shotguns her in the states. They wrote down all the serial numbers and signed/stamped the form for me to carry as I traveled over the border. When I came back, I had to present that form for US customs where they checked to make sure I was returning with the same hardware. US customs was also friendly and professional.

My buddy has traveled to Africa, however, and hunted large game there.

It's my recollection that he was told not to send "expensive" (read attractive) rifles ahead because of the rampant theft that occurs there. S. African is not Canada. I would most certainly post up at some forums where guys may have had experience like this one here:

http://www.africahunting.com/forums/

Good luck! My buddy went about 5 years ago and he said he would not return due to the continued deterioration of the politics there.

Rome

 

[Zarathustra11]

Also, there are specific ITAR exemptions for exports between the US and Canada which are far less restrictive than between the US and other countries. I don't doubt that people have not had issues with hand-carrying their firearms to Canada. As Cabinetman alluded, to the hardest part is not always US Customs but foreign Customs.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

One thing we had to do before we left was to get a form from the local customs people that proved that I had owned the shotguns her in the states.

That is the form 4457 referred to by the OP.

Just do your homework with regards to any country you will be visiting or transiting through and know their laws (for example, it's a crime to fail to declare a gun to Canadian customs, even if they don't ask).

I have never had US customs verify my serial numbers against the 4457, but I always hand them my passport and the 4457 when returning. It is better to have a 4457 and not need it than need a 4457 and not have it.

 

[skyhawk]

Last time I went through Canada driving home from Detroit, they got all worked up about my pocket knife. I am curious now to look up the laws about transporting a pistol.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I am curious now to look up the laws about transporting a pistol.

Some key points:

1. You need a Canadian permit to transport restricted weapons (the term for handguns). This must be applied for in advance and can be done by mail. You will need a specific reason such as competition with an invite letter from the match you will attend.

2. Handgun mags > 10 rounds (5 for rifles - yuk), small caliber handguns (it's either <=.32 or <=.25) are prohibited weapons, and handguns with barrel lengths < 105mm are prohibited weapons. (They made it 105mm instead of 100 to include 4" revolvers in the ban)

3. You must register the gun upon entry to Canda, eh? at a cost of $50CDN. The registration paper is good for (I think) one year. Customs Canada shares information from these registrations with the BATFE (a non issue for all practical purposes)

4. You must declare the gun even if customs does not ask (which they will). It's best to hand them the gun papers with your passport so there can be no misunderstanding about the fact that the guns were declared by you, not discovered by customs. They must be transported unloaded in a locked case or with a trigger lock (not sure if a locked case is enough, a lock disabling the gun may be required). Expect the Canadians to be surprised an American actually has paperwork for a handgun - half the time you'll wait while a supervisor is called to explain the procedure to a customs officer who has never encountered that situation.

 

[skyhawk]

4. [snip] Expect the Canadians to be surprised an American actually has paperwork a handgun - half the time you'll wait while a supervisor is called to explain the procedure to a customs officer who has never encountered that situation.

Sounds like my last domestic airline flight! (with the uneducated being the airline staff)

Thanks for the great synopsis.

Canda, eh?

Makes me think of a funny t-shirt:
T-Shirt Hell (no offense to any Canadian brothers/sisters out there )

 

[jarhead66]

Hunting abroad

Dixiedawg, I have hunted abroad on numerous occasions. Form 4475 (certificate of registration for personal effects taken abroad), is a form that proves you owned the items before you left. The form is good for many years, as long as it is legible.
At Logan airport there is a U.S. Customes office at the international terminal. It's right across from the short term parking lot. Sometimes they want to see the firearm, sometimes they don't. But, you will have to supply the serial numbers in any case. If you have any other expensive items like spotting scopes knives what have you, you can put them on the form too.
I talked to TSA before I left the last time and made sure of the following:
I have a high security metal gun case that takes 4 high security padlocks. After TSA looks in the case to certify that the firearms are not loaded and there is no ammunition in the same case, I lock it and no one goes in it again until I'm at the host country. True. Entering Canada, their customs official had me open the case. The TSA people put a piece of paper in the case certifing that the above conditions were met. Ammunition has to be in a separate CHECKED BAG and in it's original container. They will put about 20 stickers all over the bag that says ammunition inside. Great Huh?
I am heading to South Africa about the same time. Be advised that there is a site www.riflepermits.com that will help you with the SAPA (South African Police Assoc.) They will, for a fee, fill out the paperwork before hand and have a person at the airport to help you through customs and the SAPA paperwork. I'm told this will save hours and hours upon arrival. I have found that it's cheaper and easier to just use the PH firearms. For a fee of $45 plus ammo costs I can use their guns. It costs $100 just to put yours on the plane and there's no guarantee you'll ever see it again. I caught a guy trying to steal my whole case at Logan last year when returning from a Canadian moose hunt.

 

[Plural of Mongoose]

The SAPA office in Jo'berg can be a huge hold up. They revamped the staff a few years ago due numerous complaints of corruption and incompetence.
There are also stories out there of people having caught workers literally walking out the airport with their firearms.
As jarhead said, use the PH's guns. its easier to travel and you dont have to worry about theft and corrupt officials.
If there are any real problems when entering the country, you can kiss your rifles bye bye, forever.

 

[dixidawg]

Wow! Great info here. I'm glad I posted this one. I'm going to rethink the whole idea of bringing my own gun. Thanks to everyone that responded!

 

[Plural of Mongoose]

Last time I was in the RSA , I rented.
The PH put an old Mossberg .308 bolt in my hands and I used it for two weeks.
Everything went down with one shot, except one critter (red hartebeest) which needed two due to my fault.

 

[jarhead66]

I'll be using a Winchester 30-06 on loan from the PH. I talked with some of the references that they provided and they all said this 30-06 has one of the best triggers they've ever shot. It's right handed and I'm a lefty, but I've shot them before.

 

[Plural of Mongoose]

Make sure you study up on your shot placements on African critters.
They are not the same as a deer. Some are much tighter to the leg for a heart shot than a deer .
.

 

[Jose]

Ammunition has to be in a separate CHECKED BAG and in it's original container. They will put about 20 stickers all over the bag that says ammunition inside. Great Huh?.

If you were told that by TSA, that is most definitely NOT CORRECT. The Federal Government does NOT restrict where ammo can be shipped in checked luggage. Airlines set their own rules in that regard. Domestically, the only airline that I know that has a stupid policy is Air Tran which requires handgun ammo in a completely separate piece of luggage from the handgun itself.

I have flown several times in Delta with a handgun case containing a pistol, two magazines, and 34 rounds of ammo (ammo in two 20 round boxes). I have never had an issue with TSA or Delta.